Practical alchemy apology

[noonespecial]

On 10/1/2018 at 10:21 AM, Unicorn said:

In my opinion Qabalah and Alchemy should have never been mixed in the first place.

 

Alchemy in its purest is simply a set of principles describing how the process of creation works.

 

Correct, it is a verb not a noun, and can be applied internally and externally. 

[noonespecial]

On 10/3/2018 at 9:02 AM, ernobe said:

 

I see no reason to focus on a specific branch of the "Qabalah practiced by the R+C" (the German), to the exclusion of the more original, and consequently broader, Latin tradition, as the GD seems to.   It could be due to a language barrier, and consequently to their having to rely on secondary material, rather than the original tradition.

 

As for the CH and the ET, considering their relatively late dating, it is likely that they are an expression of Hermetic material with, as you say, "Jewish stuff grafted onto it".  The more original Hermetic material can be traced to the Sumerian religion, and its diagramatic expression in the Tree of Life ( see for example the study of Simo Parpola called The Assyrian Tree Of Life ).   

 

I'm not seeing any Jewish stuff grafted into the ET or the CH. Can you give some examples?

 

Also, it should be noted the Zohar itself is dated 'late' and the Yetzirah is at the least a complete rip off of Pythagorean theories. 

Edited October 9, 2018 by noonespecial

[noonespecial]

On 10/1/2018 at 10:21 AM, Unicorn said:

If anything, Daoist internal alchemy seems to be far more pure and direct than any of the western traditions.

 

That's probably true, I dont enough about Daosim to say but likewise the Indian traditions, Rasayana, Ayurveda and Shaivism seem to be completely intact and it seems the whole of Hermetic cosmology and theory can be found in the Upanishads, just substitute 'Holy Guardian Angel' for the Atman. The whole of the western tradition seems at times to be a reconstruction of a reconstruction. 

[ernobe]

@noonespecial

The "Jewish stuff" (including much stuff in the Zohar) includes, according to traditional histories among the Arabs, the philosophies of Plato and Aristotle, whom they regard as having obtained their ideas from the Jews.    The Corpus Hermeticum is chock full of it.  As for the Emerald Tablet, the Yetzirah, and older parts of the Zohar, there is evidence to suggest that they are indeed part of the older, authentic Tradition.

 

[noonespecial]

5 hours ago, ernobe said:

@noonespecial

The "Jewish stuff" (including much stuff in the Zohar) includes, according to traditional histories among the Arabs, the philosophies of Plato and Aristotle, whom they regard as having obtained their ideas from the Jews.    The Corpus Hermeticum is chock full of it.  As for the Emerald Tablet, the Yetzirah, and older parts of the Zohar, there is evidence to suggest that they are indeed part of the older, authentic Tradition.

 

 

Can you give specific examples of the Jewishness of the Corpus or ET, or are you saying the both spring from an earlier tradition, which I would agree with. 

[ernobe]

13 minutes ago, noonespecial said:

 

Can you give specific examples of the Jewishness of the Corpus or ET, or are you saying the both spring from an earlier tradition, which I would agree with. 

 

You can do so yourself.  Did you not say previously that you prefer the Hermetic concepts in their pure, neo-platonic form, as presented in the CH and ET?   In their Sumerian form these concepts appeared as the Tree of Life, and have been transmitted to us by the Jews.  They had no need to graft anything onto the Tree, because all they had to do was become re-acquainted with the teachings that had already been given them by Abraham.  This is according to traditional accounts among the Arabs, that Abraham was acquainted with and transmitted the Sumerian lore, such as alchemy and astrology.

 

I think there has been some confusion generated over these concepts, particularly in presentations like that of Rubaphilos, in which initiation is presented as something in which the initiated has no way of knowing what it is that he or she is being initiated into beforehand.  As a workaround, even Rubaphilos finds himself recommending that candidates familiarize themselves with the degree system of the Order of the Golden Dawn before initiation.   The true doctrine is even clearer in the work of Oswald Wirth expounding the Hermetic symbols of alchemy in Freemasonry (which he derives from the Rosicrucians).  Particularly his exposition of the psychological archetypes related to the planets has much in it to link it with Rubas' presentation of the Partzufim.  Unfortunately the work exists only in the original French (and the Spanish translation I own), as far as I can tell.

 

[noonespecial]

5 hours ago, ernobe said:

 

You can do so yourself.  Did you not say previously that you prefer the Hermetic concepts in their pure, neo-platonic form, as presented in the CH and ET?  

 

 

I don't see any mention of a sixfold system / Partzufim in the ET or CH, it seems cut and dry; Spirit, Soul, Body based philosophy, just wondering what you find Jewish about it? 

Edited October 11, 2018 by noonespecial

[ernobe]

13 hours ago, noonespecial said:

 

I don't see any mention of a sixfold system / Partzufim in the ET or CH, it seems cut and dry; Spirit, Soul, Body based philosophy, just wondering what you find Jewish about it? 

 

What isn't Jewish about Spirit, Soul, Body?

 

[ernobe]

Just for the sake of completeness, I'm posting some diagrams from the work of Oswald Wirth mentioned previously:

 

 

Their relationship on the Tree is clearer here:

 

 

Here are the six Partzufim:

The first is called the Realizer, corresponding to Nachash:

 

 

Opposite to it is the Dreamer, corresponding to Yechida:

 

 

Then comes the Pacifist, corresponding to Neshamah:

 

 

Opposite to it is the Conqueror, corresponding to Ruach:

 

 

Next comes the Egotist, corresponding to Chia:

 

 

Opposite to it, the Altruist, corresponding to Nefesh:

 

 

EDIT: correspondences with the Partzufim are my own.

Edited October 11, 2018 by ernobe

[noonespecial]

11 hours ago, ernobe said:

 

What isn't Jewish about Spirit, Soul, Body?

 

The division of Spirit into the Supernal Triad (Neshama, Chiah, Yechidah). 

[ernobe]

On 10/11/2018 at 7:23 PM, noonespecial said:

The division of Spirit into the Supernal Triad (Neshama, Chiah, Yechidah). 

 

Yet, without our mercury, nothing gets done.   Concerning this Baha'u'llah says (as translated from the Arabic by Stephen Lambden, with his notes in brackets and parenthesis):

 

Quote

 

[VII]

[1] Some have asserted that the [philosophers'] Stone (ḥajar) is the microcosm (`ālam-i asghar) [lesser world] which derives from the macrocosm (`ālam-i akbar) [the greater world]. [2] This inasmuch as they consider that humanity embodies each of the three kingdoms [species] (ajnās); namely, {i} the plant (nabat), {ii} the mineral (ḥajar) and {iii} the animal (ḥayawān). [3] [They believe] that the exterior aspect of this [bodily] temple, although it is of the microcosm (`ālam-i saghīr) is yet, in its interior aspect, an imitation of the macrocosm (hakī āz `ālam-i kabīr ast). [4] They have likened the created nature (khalq) of the [philosophers'] Stone (ḥajar) to the created nature (khalq) of the human being (insān) in terms of the fact that he appears from the earth and returns thereto. [5] But [consider also that] plants do not come forth from the earth except through [the action of the further element] water.

 

[VIII]

[1] Then understand [furthermore], O questioner, the subtleties of the mysteries I shall mention, in terms of the secrets of the words [through] but a hint (ramz) of the riddles (rumūz) of the prophets (anbiyā), so that thou may be acquainted with the secrets of this [alchemical] matter (amr). [2] If you would penetrate the riddles of that [alchemical knowledge] then know that God -- blessed and exalted be He -- created the earth through the water and created the sun so that it would shine forth upon the earth. [3] Then a vapour (bukhārī) and a smoke (dukhanī) rose up and [the] heavens (āsmān) were created. [4] Then through mature wisdom (bi-ḥikmat-i bāligha) the world [universe] (`ālam) came into being such that the heat of the sun adversely effected the earth. [5] Then, through the perfection of [divine] Power (bi- qudrat-i kāmila), He created the clouds (sahāb) so that rain would fall upon the earth and from it be manifest every color and hue (alwānhā wa ranghā) [ = the rainbow ? ).

 

 

( from https://hurqalya.ucmerced.edu/node/721/ )

 

EDIT: I'm attaching a pdf of a previous version of this translation, which includes items 8-10 in section II (omitted in the version at the above link).  The reason it was removed probably has to do with the opening sentence of section III, which is derived from a different mss. (see the introduction for details, though no reason is given for preferring one mss. to the other):

TB-MCOPT.pdf

 

FURTHER EDIT: I've found a link to another version, at the same site, which does include the missing items:  https://hurqalya.ucmerced.edu/node/287/ .

 

Edited October 14, 2018 by ernobe

[Unicorn]

On 10/11/2018 at 3:46 PM, ernobe said:

What isn't Jewish about Spirit, Soul, Body?

Dividing reality into three planes or realms is a core concept that in itself is older than any of the traditions.

 

Here is my take:

 

The One first split into Two. Let's call these Yin and Yang for now.

Then the Two split (or re-combined, based on how you look at it) into Three. These are the three main states of energy:

- Yang + Yang = Static or dormant power. Mind. Knowledge. The mountain.
- Yin + Yang = Volatile energy. Soul. Emotion. Action. Ego. The wind or river.
- Yin + Yin = Dense energy. Lifeless without being moved. Matter. Body. The lake.

 

The mind sets the goal. The soul sets it in motion. The body realizes it*. But in order for a perfect transmutation of idea to reality through controlled action the Three must be in harmony, and for the Three to be in harmony the Two must also be in harmony.

*It appears this corresponds with Tibetan Buddhism's terms of Ground ( གཞི ), Path ( ལམ ) and Fruition ( འབྲས ).

[Unicorn]

To add a little bit to this, we can also derive the four elements from Yin and Yang combining three parts instead of two:

Yang + Yang + Yang = Fire
Yang + Yang + Yin = Air

Yang + Yin + Yin = Water

Yin + Yin + Yin = Earth

[ernobe]

Here are the four elements derived from the Yin-Yang binary system:

 

Fire:     Yang (4) + Yin (0) + Yin (0)    = 4

Air:       Yin (0) + Yang (2) + Yang (1) = 3

Water:  Yin (0) + Yang (2) + Yin (0)    = 2

Earth:   Yin (0) + Yin (0) + Yang (1)    = 1

 

[ernobe]

I added a pdf of a previous version of Baha'u'llahs' alchemy tablet at my previous post where I quoted it (see the post for details).

 

EDIT: I've found a link to another version, at the same site, which seems to be more recent:  https://hurqalya.ucmerced.edu/node/287/ .

 

Edited October 14, 2018 by ernobe

[FraterUFA]

.

Edited April 20, 2019 by FraterUFA

[ernobe]

@FraterUFA

I'd say the thread is about the reasons for engaging in practical alchemy.  Now if you are of the opinion that they can only be given you by your personal instructor in alchemy, then I guess that would rule out having any sort of exposition or discussion in a forum like this.

 

[ernobe]

@FraterUFA

Have we strayed because of the misdirection of Rubas' videos, or is it something to do with our interpretation of them?  

[ernobe]

@FraterUFA

I'm asking why you think we have drifted away from the original subject, or have steered off course from its object.   Your exact words were that we have "drifted a long way from the original subject of the thread", and have "steered far from it", which certainly seems to imply that we have drifted or steered away from our original objective.

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by ernobe

[Unicorn]

On 10/14/2018 at 7:45 PM, FraterUFA said:

Having been a practitioner of both Daoist inner alchemy as well as authentic western alchemy, I believe that they have nothing in common. I would be open to whatever insights you have that support such a connection however.

The connection I believe them to have results from what I said about the "set of principles". That in turn however I need to rephrase I think.

 

I believe that there are a set of principles describing how creation as an infinite cyclic process works, and both daoist alchemy and western alchemy are aiming to understand and integrate these principles, they just do so from a different vantage point. And thus I said that alchemy in its purest form is a set of principles because I think you can meditate in a cave or work in a lab and still acquire the same higher understanding of creation through these different means.

 

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but to my knowledge the ancient Chinese practical alchemists also based their lab work on daoist principles, which means there is direct connection between daoist inner alchemy and practical alchemy. And Eastern alchemy is the grandfather of Western alchemy.

[noonespecial]

On 10/13/2018 at 6:17 AM, Unicorn said:

Dividing reality into three planes or realms is a core concept that in itself is older than any of the traditions.

 

Here is my take:

 

The One first split into Two. Let's call these Yin and Yang for now.

Then the Two split (or re-combined, based on how you look at it) into Three. These are the three main states of energy:

- Yang + Yang = Static or dormant power. Mind. Knowledge. The mountain.
- Yin + Yang = Volatile energy. Soul. Emotion. Action. Ego. The wind or river.
- Yin + Yin = Dense energy. Lifeless without being moved. Matter. Body. The lake.

 

The mind sets the goal. The soul sets it in motion. The body realizes it*. But in order for a perfect transmutation of idea to reality through controlled action the Three must be in harmony, and for the Three to be in harmony the Two must also be in harmony.

*It appears this corresponds with Tibetan Buddhism's terms of Ground ( གཞི ), Path ( ལམ ) and Fruition ( འབྲས ).

 

There are triads everywhere, of course  my current understanding is that the tripartite state is a condition that arises when a binary is in transition. I.e., the soul arises only betwixt the states of body and spirit or in your example (if I understand correctly), the visible world and the invisible world, this goes around the typical understanding of an emanational/vibrational view, but it is what practical work as presented to me. A cell divides by twos not threes, but while it is dividing a third state arises and dissipates. In this way what occurs during lab work proves which spiritual philosophies are true and which are false, so the work aids us in understanding lofty terms like soul and spirit. In this way Nature is the ultimate arbiter and guide of which philosophies are correct and which are incorrect, it can even aid us in understanding creation. So if we start with one natural subject, not adding rectified ethanol, yeast or any foreign elements,  like an orange (naturally occurring sugars), and let the orange decompose in a sealed vessel, I am left with a liquid and a mush of matter. If I heat that up and distill of the liquid I now have the matter in the first vessel and the liquid  in the receiving flask. Now I can break this initial duality into two additional dualities, leaving me with the four classical greek elements. I left out the Fifth Element here because that is a whole other discussion, and I dont understand it practically yet. 

 

There is a quote I like from an alchemist named Bonus, found in the New Pearl of a Great Price as follows, “It (Alchemy) truly instructs us how to know the one substance truly designed by Nature for a specific purpose, and it also acquaints with the natural method of treating and manipulating this substance...before we know how to do a thing, we must understand all conditions and circumstances under which it is produced.“

 

Here is an article on the relations between Kabbalah and Alchemy if anyone else is interested in the earlier discussion. They don't seem to have a very savory view of alchemy, lol. 

 

Alchemy and the *Kabbalah were closely linked in the Middle Ages. A kabbalistic outline is found in the early alchemist manuscript of Saint Mark (11^th century) called Solomon's Labyrinth. The wandering German alchemist, Salomon Trismosin, boasted that he drew his knowledge from kabbalistic writings which had been translated into Arabic. His great disciple, Paracelsus, maintained that expert knowledge of Kabbalah was an essential prerequisite for studying alchemy. However, neither he nor his master had more than a superficial knowledge of the Kabbalah, if any at all, although both talked about it a great deal. Paracelsus even based his strange theories on it, i.e., that of the creation of a *golem, a homunculus, through alchemy. The lesser Christian alchemists, especially the religious ones, following his example, also tended to make use of the Kabbalah for their purposes, though most had no knowledge of it. When, at the beginning of the 17^thcentury, alchemy took a religious, mystical turn (in particular with the rise of the Rosicrucians), the prestige and influence of the Kabbalah became even more widespread; alchemy and Kabbalah became synonymous among Christians. This identification was generally speaking groundless. While many kabbalists undoubtedly accepted alchemy as a fact, the interests and symbol systems of Kabbalah and alchemy respectively were utterly different. Nevertheless occasional – albeit relatively insignifican – mutual influences are evident, and traces of alchemical lore are to be found in the *Zohar. 

 

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/alchemy

Edited October 28, 2018 by noonespecial
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