A Comprehensive Guide to Daoist Nei Gong

[Apech]

I've read the book in question - but then I don't practice Nei Gong - but I do like to look around here and there for helpful ideas.  I agree with some of the criticisms above like 'energy of Dao' being waffle words.  As to the exercises being like warm up - apart from wuji posture and some basic sitting meditation there aren't any exercises in the book - so I think that is unfair.

 

He is quite honest about his own experiences which he recounts in detail - which is unusual for a writer on this subject - and he also honest when he gets to higher level stuff about his own achievements.

 

I found the whole thing quite interesting and well written (though a bit repetitive) - I wouldn't follow it for practice but then I wouldn't follow any book.  I don't follow books I read them   If you are like me and just like to assimilate information from various sources then give it a go.

 

 

[ronko]

On 08/12/2018 at 8:38 AM, Taoist Texts said:

Absolutely. His books are garbage.

 

On 08/12/2018 at 4:58 AM, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

Building on the incorrect "foundation" of the other one?

He doesn't understand Daoism.
Doesn't understand what Qi is.

Doesn't know what YinYang is.

And he is teaching people who don't know these either.

 

What books would you both recommend ?

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, ronko said:

 

 

What books would you both recommend ?

depends on what your goals are. Can you define those?

[Apech]

5 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

depends on what your goals are. Can you define those?

 

 

Instead of reading Mitchell's book I would have thought - so what would you recommend for Nei Gong?

[Taoist Texts]

46 minutes ago, Apech said:

so what would you recommend for Nei Gong?

I donno;). for starters i would recommend take a moment and think about this factoid from the chinese wiki

 

Quote

 

https://baike.baidu.com/item/内功/8500204

 

 历史由来编辑
有关内外功的说法没有正式的纪录可以考据....

historically there are no authentic records of NEI GONG, or wai gong...

 

中国武侠小说里描述的内功应该诞生于1932年

the notion of NEI GONG in chinese 'knight errant' novels was born in 1932..

 

 

 

In other words, NeiGong is modern fantasy, hence my question on the end goal of reading: health , spiritual, martial, cultural?

 

[Apech]

17 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

I donno;). for starters i would recommend take a moment and think about this factoid from the chinese wiki

 

 

 

In other words, NeiGong is modern fantasy, hence my question on the end goal of reading: health , spiritual, martial, cultural?

 

 

 

Thanks.  Do you mean the term 'Nei Gong' or the actual principles and practices?

[Taoist Texts]

8 minutes ago, Apech said:

Thanks.  Do you mean the term 'Nei Gong' or the actual principles and practices?

This one is a good question. Because one would think they made up a term to designate a bunch of pre-existing genuine practices, right? Unfortunately not).

The hysterical reality is that they also made up a whole plethora of fake crap and called that nei-gong. The term sounds kinda-sorta genuine and the practices also sort of look real. Rather amusingly, they both are a sham.

[ronko]

31 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

I donno;). for starters i would recommend take a moment and think about this factoid from the chinese wiki

 

 

 

In other words, NeiGong is modern fantasy, hence my question on the end goal of reading: health , spiritual, martial, cultural?

 

 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

depends on what your goals are. Can you define those?

I suppose health leading onto spiritual , very interesting about the neigong ,

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

This one is a good question. Because one would think they made up a term to designate a bunch of pre-existing genuine practices, right? Unfortunately not).

The hysterical reality is that they also made up a whole plethora of fake crap and called that nei-gong. The term sounds kinda-sorta genuine and the practices also sort of look real. Rather amusingly, they both are a sham.

 

Do you mind saying what it is that you practice?

[Taoist Texts]

On 8/21/2018 at 10:22 PM, vonkrankenhaus said:

Also Yang Jwing Ming "Root of Chinese Qigong" has some beginner information,

I would second this author, also Mantack Chia.

https://www.amazon.com/Special-Taoist-Taiji-Stick-Qigong/dp/B0019TPE34

 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

Do you mind saying what it is that you practice?

not at all. I do neidan/alchemy, also play some taiji.

[ronko]

11 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

I would second this author, also Mantack Chia.

https://www.amazon.com/Special-Taoist-Taiji-Stick-Qigong/dp/B0019TPE34

 

Mantak chia ! blooming 'ell hes hopeless !

the book you linked to is Wang feng ming and is what i currently practice , he teaches a system called special taoist qi gong, there is the internal dan you learn first then the external dan,  son in law of grandmaster feng who created the hunyuan system which is classified as nei gong and was taught by grandmaster hu  Yaozhen , and theres no way these guys were fakers! .

 

edi

Edited December 10, 2018 by ronko

[Apech]

9 minutes ago, ronko said:

Mantak chia ! blooming 'ell hes hopeless !

the book you linked to is Wang feng ming and is what i currently practice , he teaches a system called special taoist qi gong, there is the internal dan you learn first then the external dan,  son in law of grandmaster feng who created the hunyuan system which is classified as nei dan.

 

 

The more people read Mantak Chia the more people we get on here saying how they screwed themselves up.

[Taoist Texts]

27 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

The more people read Mantak Chia the more people we get on here saying how they screwed themselves up.

But its only because they do not think happy thoughts

[vonkrankenhaus]

Mantak Chia is teaching real stuff - but I am not seeing that he really understands it completely in his books.

He has maybe one big book worth of actual translated material - the rest is all filler, and some of it is incorrect.

 

Taoist Yoga book is also teaching real stuff - but just has a few errors.

 

Yang Jwing Ming book I mentioned has good beginner info - and where he runs out of experience and theorizes, he does state that's what he is doing, so okay.

 

For 3 years recently I am looking at all these books that have come out. In the 70s we didn't have any like this at all. I had no idea. Much fun to see - but people will get confused. They ARE confused. Books shouldn't confuse. They should inform.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Frederic]

So what are the kind of practices he used to get, for example, feeling in the Lower Dantian leading up to vibration?

[GreytoWhite]

Damo is very practical and presents things as they are seen from an "indoor" perspective. I've been fortunate to only learn from indoor perspectives in person and this matches well and illuminates things for me. It all comes down to practice and this book does not provide that. Instead, it provides a lot of very good information about neigong from Damo's very well informed perspective. For years I was lost in the dark trying to learn from videos and books after my old taiji teacher was deported. All that reading and watching was a huge waste of time - if only I had found someone to meet with in person. After I showed my teacher Damo's book he encouraged me to go study with Damo - he said that Damo is probably a very nice person based on what he's seen and that he is showing stuff you won't get from DVDs and books alone.

[Miffymog]

I've just read this through this book and it's been really good for me to compare my practice to what he says.

 

Damo Mitchell seems to create a bit of a 'love or hate him' response on this website, and I can see where this is coming from.

 

There are a lot of traditional attitudes in his approach that I really like. But when he discusses things that I actually have some experience of, his knowledge is either weak or simply wrong.

 

This makes me a little nervous when he then talks about things I don't already understand - should I trust him or not?

 

But he has provided me with so many counter-points to what I already do, that in the end I quite like his work - even if I only end up disagreeing with some of what he says.

Edited March 21, 2019 by Miffymog

[Bruce Qi]

15 hours ago, Miffymog said:

But when he discusses things that I actually have some experience of, his knowledge is either weak or simply wrong.

 

 

could you give some examples ?

[Miffymog]

He doesn't often criticise others in this book, but one of the times he does is when he explains why you bend your knees in a ZZ pose. He claims to know the real reason why you bend your knees, and complains that there are other teachers out there who unfortunately don't know this real reason.

 

He says the real reason you do this is in order to lower your centre of mass from your chest into to your LDT and he even has pictures showing how this happens.

 

The idea that your centre of mass is in your chest is simply wrong and can easily be demonstrated by holding your body straight and trying to find where your balance point is while lying on a rolled up yoga mat. You'll find that it is pretty much near you LDT already, and most definitely not in your chest.

 

This mistake does not take away from the practice, but it shows

- a mild lack of understanding on his part of simple concepts

- a tendency on his part to take at face value what he gets told by others

- a lack of criticism and questioning of him by those around him, given that a basic error was allowed to get to print.

 

...

 

He also has some other philosophical attitudes that I can see where he's coming from, but are at odds with my own.

 

One of them is that all major religions really are just a quest for immortality, and that if they come across as otherwise or hide this fact, it just a 'good public relations exercise'.

 

This is clearly something he tells himself to justify his own single minded aim to achieve immortality through his practice.

 

...

 

He also has the attitude that 'absolutely everything happens for a reason'. There are those that believe this and I don't mind that attitude, but I'm afraid for me, this is similar to having a fundamental 'interventionist god'  approach to life. I tend to add some chance into the mix.

 

...

 

He also says that the healing sounds should only be used if they come out naturally during Zi Fa Gong, where as I definitely find them to be beneficial while not in this state. I'm also not a fan Zi Fa Gong, but that's just me. 

 

...

 

There are lots of good things I do like in this book and it really has given me lots to think about in terms of what I do. And there are a number of things I've been trying to incorporating into my practice and life thanks to him, so I'm pleased I read it. But I'm just not a massive fan of his work, because if he can make simple errors about things I do understand, I worry a little bit about trusting him when he discusses things I don't understand.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Miffymog

[GreytoWhite]

Regarding the center of gravity dropping - it's a fairly accurate way of describing the mechanics of opening and closing physically along the Governing and Conception Vessels. I think that many here in the West hold a lot of excess tension in their upper torso and don't even understand how that changes things.

[Wilhelm]

On 22/03/2019 at 6:54 AM, Miffymog said:

He doesn't often criticise others in this book, but one of the times he does is when he explains why you bend your knees in a ZZ pose. He claims to know the real reason why you bend your knees, and complains that there are other teachers out there who unfortunately don't know this real reason.

 

He says the real reason you do this is in order to lower your centre of mass from your chest into to your LDT and he even has pictures showing how this happens.

 

The idea that your centre of mass is in your chest is simply wrong and can easily be demonstrated by holding your body straight and trying to find where your balance point is while lying on a rolled up yoga mat. You'll find that it is pretty much near you LDT already, and most definitely not in your chest.

I'm pretty sure center of mass = center of gravity.  So it will change if you're in a low stance, high stance, sitting down or lying down.  Standing straight up, where is the center of gravity?  It was easier for me to feel by standing on one leg to emphasize it a bit, but it seems to be in the chest, lowering and raising as my stance does.

[Pero]

Sure it changes as change positions/move, but it'll never be in the chest as he says, since most of our weight is below it. For it to be in the chest, our heads, necks and shoulders would have to be as big as the rest of the body.

 

https://www.physio-pedia.com/Centre_of_Gravity

Quote

The centre of gravity (COG) of the human body is a hypothetical point around which the force of gravity appears to act. It is point at which the combined mass of the body appears to be concentrated^[1]. Because it is a hypothetical point, the COG need not lie within the physical bounds of an object or person. One subjective way (there are objective measures) to approximate the COG of an object is to visualise it balancing on one finger.

 

Perhaps he didn't actually mean this but something else and expressed it incorrectly, like the excess tension in chest Grey mentioned.

[Wilhelm]

On 10/12/2018 at 12:47 PM, Taoist Texts said:

I donno;). for starters i would recommend take a moment and think about this factoid from the chinese wiki

 

 

 

In other words, NeiGong is modern fantasy, hence my question on the end goal of reading: health , spiritual, martial, cultural?

 

 

Haha if the PRC-sponsored wiki says so then it's gotta be true right?

 

17 minutes ago, Pero said:

Sure it changes as change positions/move, but it'll never be in the chest as he says, since most of our weight is below it. For it to be in the chest, our heads, necks and shoulders would have to be as big as the rest of the body.

 

https://www.physio-pedia.com/Centre_of_Gravity

 

Perhaps he didn't actually mean this but something else and expressed it incorrectly, like the excess tension in chest Grey mentioned.

 

That's an interesting point!  I don't know why mine is seems to be in my chest when standing straight, but when I exaggerate it by leaning on one leg it's quite palpable.  Yes, by percentage of weight there's clearly more in the lower half.

 

[Shubin]

On 12/10/2018 at 4:08 PM, vonkrankenhaus said:

...,

Taoist Yoga book is also teaching real stuff - but just has a few errors.

...,

-VonKrankenhaus

It is good to see someone pointed out errors in the book "Taoist Yoga".

                  

From my point of view, Charles Luk could not correctly translate the Title of the book of Master Chao Pi Ch'en, and that is a big mistake.