Inaugural Book Selection - Taoist Yoga

[doc benway]

To start things off, it appears that everyone who has replied so far is comfortable with Mal's recommendation of Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality by Lu K'uan Yu (Charles Luk). This will be our first selection. My intention will be to begin discussion on this book around March 1st. This will give everyone nearly a month to read and formulate questions and topics of discussion. When we start the discussion, I'll try to come up with a few discussion points to help guide us and keep us from getting too far off track.

Thanks for the suggestion Mal!

http://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Yoga-Immortal...2552&sr=8-1

[Mal]

To start things off, it appears that everyone who has replied so far is comfortable with Mal's recommendation of Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality by Lu K'uan Yu (Charles Luk). This will be our first selection.

 

Wow, go away for one day and the place has changed. Cool, nice looking book club.

 

Is this the place for people to indicate they intend to read it? Taoist Yoga should be arriving this week for me ( hurry up postperson ) So if it turns out to be no good or too dificult can we blame Drew instead of me

 

Many thanks to Steve for taking this on, should be fun.

[Taomeow]

Nice beginning.

 

Not crazy about the chosen book. Let me start with a negative review. Maybe I'll be convincing enough to change the book of choice to something else. If not, then I'll just wait another month and offer something else.

 

I read it a few years ago, and found without merit. The only thing it convinced me of wast that "new age" is really ages old -- for this is a prime example of "pseudo-taoist new ageism" -- i.e. "creative" application of a genuine ancient system to the immediate agenda and bias of the user utilizing any snippets thereof he or she cares to cut off the whole in order to prop his or her personal worldview; filtering a complete and genuine system through his or her personal bias, and re-interpreting it to fit in with same; neatly packaging it in some for-sale version, and presenting the resulting "purified" product (as in, bathwater

"purified" of the baby that's been thrown out of it) as the real thing. Well... I wouldn't practice from this book under penalty of law. It is alchemically unrealistic because it rests on a foundation of dozens if not hundreds of false premises. E.g.:

that yang is a positive force in the sense "good, better, superior to yin";

that the "original cavity" is in the brain;

that "lead and mercury" stand for "vitality and spirit";

that among the Five Phases (translated as "elements" again... grrr) Earth stands in the center;

and so on, it could go on and on, it's on every page. He creates "credibility" by juggling genuine taoist concepts and peppering his musings with descriptions of genuine practices, but that's the way all new-agey systems are designed -- be it a MA "purified" of qi, "philosophical taoism" "purified" of practice, or "alchemical taoism" purified of Hou Tian, tao-in-motion, the world of manifestations, wuji without taiji, spirit without body, body without merit. The latter, a buddhist addition to the original taoist thought, is the source of "new agey taoism" that seems to have existed for centuries, overshadowing the real thing just the way all new-agey commercializations of authentic (and therefore poorly fit for sale, for mass consumption in the form of "products") systems have been overshadowing the real thing --

just the way the bank of Vatican is far more influential than Jesus Christ, and George Bush has far more power to determine what the Constitution is or isn't supposed to mean than George Washington.

[mYTHmAKER]

Nice beginning.

 

Not crazy about the chosen book. Let me start with a negative review. Maybe I'll be convincing enough to change the book of choice to something else. If not, then I'll just wait another month and offer something else.

 

I read it a few years ago, and found without merit. The only thing it convinced me of wast that "new age" is really ages old -- for this is a prime example of "pseudo-taoist new ageism" -- i.e. "creative" application of a genuine ancient system to the immediate agenda and bias of the user utilizing any snippets thereof he or she cares to cut off the whole in order to prop his or her personal worldview; filtering a complete and genuine system through his or her personal bias, and re-interpreting it to fit in with same; neatly packaging it in some for-sale version, and presenting the resulting "purified" product (as in, bathwater

"purified" of the baby that's been thrown out of it) as the real thing. Well... I wouldn't practice from this book under penalty of law. It is alchemically unrealistic because it rests on a foundation of dozens if not hundreds of false premises. E.g.:

that yang is a positive force in the sense "good, better, superior to yin";

that the "original cavity" is in the brain;

that "lead and mercury" stand for "vitality and spirit";

that among the Five Phases (translated as "elements" again... grrr) Earth stands in the center;

and so on, it could go on and on, it's on every page. He creates "credibility" by juggling genuine taoist concepts and peppering his musings with descriptions of genuine practices, but that's the way all new-agey systems are designed -- be it a MA "purified" of qi, "philosophical taoism" "purified" of practice, or "alchemical taoism" purified of Hou Tian, tao-in-motion, the world of manifestations, wuji without taiji, spirit without body, body without merit. The latter, a buddhist addition to the original taoist thought, is the source of "new agey taoism" that seems to have existed for centuries, overshadowing the real thing just the way all new-agey commercializations of authentic (and therefore poorly fit for sale, for mass consumption in the form of "products") systems have been overshadowing the real thing --

just the way the bank of Vatican is far more influential than Jesus Christ, and George Bush has far more power to determine what the Constitution is or isn't supposed to mean than George Washington.

 

Glad you're back. What book - books do you suggest.

[doc benway]

Several posts have suggested the possibility of a more basic, introductory book for our first discussion. I think there is definite wisdom in this. I would like to reconsider the first choice unless there is strong opinion to the contrary. I think reading a basic work first will help prepare us all for some of the more subtle, complex, and difficult language and concepts of more advanced works (such as Taoist Yoga).

I have read Eva Wong's introductory book and think it is a good overview but I'm sure there are other good basic intros as well.

 

What is the general consensus about starting with a more basic book?

Are there any other suggestions for a basic, first read for the group?

I have no problem if we take a day or two and make sure the way we get started appeals to the largest number of participants. We can certainly revisit Taoist Yoga in the near future.

[Taomeow]

Thanks, Mythmaker!

 

Xuesheng, my thinking is along the same lines: start with the basics.

 

Eva Wong's intro is pretty good, I would really be happy if "everyone" read at least that before arguing "about" taoism. However, for the more "advanced" (I don't mean spiritually advanced or anything like that, it's not a pissing contest, I mean advanced in their studies of taoist documents and concurrent practice of taoist arts) folks it may be a tad remedial... But then, we would have to phase in the fact that there's wildly different levels of "proficiency" represented here -- moreover, there's people with selective "pockets of expertize" who truly know what they're talking about provided they talk about that one subject... but then when someone extends this rightfully earned sense of competence in one area to "all things taoist" or, worse, to "all things and all people in the world..."

...

 

...so what I'm driving at is, a book of taoist basics can give "everyone" an idea of how far from "knowing it all" they really are. So, yes, Eva Wong's intro could be a good start. Although I was thinking more along the lines of the "basic basics" -- the I Ching in close conjunction with Ta Chuan, e.g... but that might be difficult to do anything about in a month (even Confucius lamented, at the end of his rather fulfilled life of accomplishment and recognition, that he didn't have another fifty years to dedicate exclusively to the study of the I Ching.) So I think I'm going in the direction of a bit of a "self-education course" here rather than just a book club. I.e., something as easy as Eva Wong's intro to taoism could be a "book of the month," but Ta Chuan would be a "prerequisite," Yuan Dao would be another one, Wen-tzu, another one, Sun Tzu, another one... and so on. Not "prerequisite" in the sense that it's "required reading" but in the sense, if you haven't read that, consider doing so on the side, just to keep taoist discussions above the "common denominator opinions of an average Western-educated bloke" based on nothing taoist at all. So that we don't have to deal with the level of mis-informedness that causes someone to announce (e.g.) that Sun Tzu "is not a taoist text" or that Magical Taoism or Mystical Taoism or Divinational taoism or Devotional Taoism schools ("only" the heart and soul of the whole enchilada) are hogwash, or some such. An elementary taoist education as a new year's resolution (I mean Chinese new year, there's still time), how's that?..

 

So I would definitely avoid starting with an "advanced" alchemical text, whether genuine or bogus. You know, in kindergarten everybody read Dr. Seuss, not Shakespeare. Yet when it comes down to another culture's greatest spiritual, intellectual, scientific, cognitive accomplishments, people tend to think they can skip Dr. Seuss and move on to Shakespeare right away. And then not even that -- they think they can watch a youtube clip of a students' drama club doing Shakespeare and bingo, they're experts on Shakespeare.

 

So I say, let's start with Dr. Seuss... take it from there.

[Mal]

I'm happy to go with whatever, as long as I can get it in time. Usually takes at least 2 weeks to order stuff for me, if I have the $$ to buy it straight away and don't have to wait a fortnight to get paid first

 

Although I was looking forward to debating Taoist Yoga with Taomeow (positing early reviews is cheating ) and hearing what Drew has to say. Taoist Yoga along with Working towards Enlightment seem to be getting a lot of recommendations (at least they stick in my mind) And I think trying to decipher Taoist Yoga as a group will give a better understanding of the book than just reading it by ourselves.

 

Really depends on what people want to be bothered reading.

[Adam West]

To start things off, it appears that everyone who has replied so far is comfortable with Mal's recommendation of Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality by Lu K'uan Yu (Charles Luk). This will be our first selection. My intention will be to begin discussion on this book around March 1st. This will give everyone nearly a month to read and formulate questions and topics of discussion. When we start the discussion, I'll try to come up with a few discussion points to help guide us and keep us from getting too far off track.

Thanks for the suggestion Mal!

http://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Yoga-Immortal...2552&sr=8-1

 

Nice idea from both of you! I'm definitely up for it!

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

[Adam West]

So I say, let's start with Dr. Seuss... take it from there.

 

On this forum, I doubt most are concerned with the basics or the advanced of Taoist philosophy in terms of robust academia. Most seem to be concerned with Taoist practices, that is, Taoist technical mysticism in the form of sitting and moving meditation and alchemy. I am interested in Taoist sitting meditation and internal alchemy practice. If you can recommend a course in basic to advanced meditation and alchemal practice that you feel is authentically traditional and not overly influenced by new age or Buddhist views, then I would be very interested in that! Avoiding a pompous tone of intellectual snobbery might be useful though. Certainly and evidently, as you stated, being advanced insofar as of being well read in Taoist philosophical texts does not equate to being spiritually advanced.

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

[Taomeow]

On this forum, I doubt most are concerned with the basics or the advanced of Taoist philosophy in terms of robust academia. Most seem to be concerned with Taoist practices, that is, Taoist technical mysticism in the form of sitting and moving meditation and alchemy. I am interested in Taoist sitting meditation and internal alchemy practice. If you can recommend a course in basic to advanced meditation and alchemal practice that you feel is authentically traditional and not overly influenced by new age or Buddhist views, then I would be very interested in that! Avoiding a pompous tone of intellectual snobbery might be useful though. Certainly and evidently, as you stated, being advanced insofar as of being well read in Taoist philosophical texts does not equate to being spiritually advanced.

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

Did I sound like that? Keep in mind that this medium distorts the tone of voice. No, I'm not driven by snobbery here, rather by its diametrical opposite -- I long for peers who are no better, no worse, not "superior" and not "inferior," just peers -- to talk taoist talk with, because they are in drastically short supply (have always been -- did you know that there's 20 million people in the world who designate themselves as taoists vs. 3.2 BILLION who designate themselves as Catholics?..) Taoists are in the minority everywhere they turn up (except for some enclaves in Asia where they tend to speak no English and, the closer to the "basics of taoism" you get, the greater the chance they don't even have an internet connection. The Four Tigers, e.g., the current world-famous Chen lineage holders, grew up so poor none of them could afford a bicycle. And people who taught them -- old people still doing Chen style taiji in Chen village the taoist way -- still have never seen a youtube video... but I'm told when they saw a live demo of how it's done "here and now," they wept. True story.) So the reason I want "others" to know what I know (which isn't much, really, just a tad more than "nothing at all") is, you could say, egotistical: I simply want those "others" to exist. It can get lonely sitting alone at Fu Xi's feet, having no one to share the thrill of mystery with. I'm not a hermit, so I'm looking for tao-ing peers, is all.

 

As for usability for practice -- that's exactly why I say "basics, basics, basics" together with my other mantra -- "practice, practice, practice." Practice is deficient without the basics -- not my opinion, Immortal Lu and Immortal Ch'ang's opinion (that's another book I would suggest, by the way, for grasping the alchemical basics -- but later...) I say deficient, they actually say perilous, consequences can be the opposite of what a cultivator is after -- not just the opposite, the kind of "not-what-I-hoped-for" that is hard to imagine until you're there. So... what would I recommend? Basics, basics, basics. This is the only way to know what to trust, who to trust. The fundamentals of reality as revealed by taoist basics. Grasp them and you "roam the root of heaven and earth" and don't really have to take anyone's word for anything -- you are it. The word and the practice. You ask you, and that's how you know. That's what "basics" of taoism can do for you. For anyone patient enough to spend enough time with them.

 

Basics, in their own turn, are deficient without practice. The separation into stuff for the body and stuff for the mind is not a taoist modus operandi at all. They go hand in hand, bodymind in bodymind, and sometimes grasping the basics illuminates your practice, and other times practice itself reveals the basics to you --

it's all one snake.

 

but if you want specific practice/meditation recommendations, that's not a book club topic in my humble opinion -- I submit it's not in any book, it's in the posture, and I wrote about it in the Full Lotus thread. For what it's worth.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Taomeow

[rain]

hey

sweet taofellows

so many many words! thanks for your thoughts on "Taoist Yoga" Taomeow, any info that helps me not wasting time, is gold. what happened to the suggestions "Clear Light of Bliss: The Practice of Mahamudra in Vajrayana Buddhism" by Kelsang Gyatso or the "To Be Human by Jiddu Krishnamurti?

I'm leaving for darkness. will be gone a month. hopefully you will have made a choice by then, and I'll be able tor tune in. I just bought "Ancient Philosophy Mystery and Magic" by Peter Kingsley, but my suggest is to go for a book that also describes details of cultivation.

Edited February 4, 2008 by rain

[Taomeow]

hey

sweet taofellows

so many many words! thanks for your thoughts on "Taoist Yoga" Taomeow, any info that helps me not wasting time, is gold. what happened to the suggestions "Clear Light of Bliss: The Practice of Mahamudra in Vajrayana Buddhism" by Kelsang Gyatso or the "To Be Human by Jiddu Krishnamurti?

I'm leaving for darkness. will be gone a month. hopefully you will have made a choice by then, and I'll be able tor tune in. I just bought "Ancient Philosophy Mystery and Magic" by Peter Kingsley, but my suggest is to go for a book that also describes details of cultivation.

 

You will be missed! Darkness is the mother of all things (including of light the father, of course), so please send her my filial regards!

[rain]

You will be missed! Darkness is the mother of all things (including of light the father, of course), so please send her my filial regards!

 

yes. i know. turning to the force.

will miss you all like mad. as i am a master "at attchments"

love

whip'em fellow feline.

[Mal]

I simply want those "others" to exist. It can get lonely sitting alone at Fu Xi's feet, having no one to share the thrill of mystery with. I'm not a hermit, so I'm looking for tao-ing peers, is all.

 

I want this to, although I had to Goggle Fu Xi Perhaps a basic text would be good. I've noticed Cat, Taomeow Rain and Spectrum can talk well above my reading level

 

I admit I have looked at Guide to Taoism in bookstores and didn't buy it. I'm much more practice orientated in my books than philosophy / history. But that could well be because I have nobody to talk to about it (can always try a practice)

 

I suggested Taoist Yoga because I know a few people have brought it recently, and maybe it is locked in, still think there would be a lot to discuss from it.

 

perhaps we should read a bit

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0877280673...603#reader-link

 

(the Kunlun seminar people should enjoy that )

 

Guide to Taoism

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1570621691...603#reader-link

 

If we are still suggesting stuff Art of the Bedchamber: The Chinese Sexual Yoga Classics Including Women's Solo Meditation Texts by Douglas Wile Because I'll need help with this one too but I can't see all of us shelling out $30 EDIT on SPECIAL mine is not even here yet and I paid $42AUS

[Taomeow]

Mal,

 

sorry for "cheating" -- now are you trying to impose karmic penalties by making it necessary for me to BUY another book before I can discuss it? and an expensive one to boot?

 

Practice-oriented is good, I'm a card-carrying pragmatist myself... but...

it's like that old parable: if you're hungry and someone gives you a fish, you're getting one meal. If you're hungry and someone teaches you how to fish, you're getting dozens, hundreds, thousands of meals -- even though the teacher didn't actually give you anything to eat right on the spot. So... any one specific taoist practice is one fish. Knowing taoist fundamentals is knowing how to fish.

[Mal]

Your argument is forcing me to buy a (cheap) book hahha (Guide to Taoism is in my "to buy" list, it looks very useful) Was going to complain to fishpond about the price reduction but thought, "Do I really want an argument about the price of a book called arts of the bedchamber?" Rather just pay the extra $20

 

And I would rather fish than eat one. Actually I use barbless lures and throw them back, unless they have big teeth and look like they could bite me, then it's dinner time

[Pietro]

To start things off, it appears that everyone who has replied so far is comfortable with Mal's recommendation of Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality by Lu K'uan Yu (Charles Luk). This will be our first selection. My intention will be to begin discussion on this book around March 1st. This will give everyone nearly a month to read and formulate questions and topics of discussion. When we start the discussion, I'll try to come up with a few discussion points to help guide us and keep us from getting too far off track.

Thanks for the suggestion Mal!

http://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Yoga-Immortal...2552&sr=8-1

 

 

Ok, now I have a bit more time.

 

On friday I left the office, and the only internet connection, and there was no book club. I read from the phone (from where I cannot post, it does not work) the book club. ANd then in the space of one day it seemed we were all confortable with Charles Luk. I had to go to a great length on Sunday to find a connection to write my post. May I ask in general to take more than 24 hours to make those decisions. I just some time like to take the week end off, and I suspect others do as well (or they should! as a matter of fact ).

 

I tend to agree with Tao Meaw. Although I have to say I never managed to read much of Charles Luk. Yes, I have it, yes I have tried it, but my internal censor stopped me, calling bullshit.

 

My idea of Eva Wong book was not to sound or look academic ( Can I mention that I also own an History of Taoism from Robinet somwhere ), but to really paint a frame. There are academic books on taoism, there are ancient taoist book, there are medieval taoist books, there are modern books on taoist practices, and there are introductory books on taoism. And then there are books that are neither about taoism nor from the taoist tradition.

 

Well Eva's book is an introductory book on taoism. It is not academic in any extent. It easily readible. It gives a good background, and it will permit us to have some sort of vague map later on for our next books.

 

I would also stir away, for now (!), from those pillars like the daodejing or the zhuang zi. Maybe they should have a standing reading section. But the idea of reading the dao de jing in one month, and then commenting I find it both commendable and incredibly amusing.

 

And I also would stir away from practice book from other tradition. Independently from how much they might be Taoist-like. At least for now. Taoism has a HUGE tradition, ancient, wide and diverse. You can easily pass a lifetime and only scratch the surface. But if we start to cross mix at this stage we run the risk to just make a big mess.

 

So I would say the way to go is:

1.) Get the basic picture

2.) Get deeper in the sub-tradition you want to explore. Find out what the main books are that has been translated, and read them.

3.) Discuss how the practice we have read link to what we are studying from our teachers

4.) go back to 2. Either going deeper, or to another sub tradition.

5.) every now and then deepen your picture by going back to 1. with a similar book (Example by reading a Taoist Anthology)

 

What we should avoid instead is:

1.) find a book that is very popular and sounds taoist-like (Luk, not taoists...)

2.) read it and try to practice from the book according to your understanding.

 

Pietro

[Mal]

May I ask in general to take more than 24 hours to make those decisions. I just some time like to take the week end off, and I suspect others do as well (or they should! as a matter of fact ).

 

Yes we did get a bit excited, lucky for me I didn't take this weekend off Although I think Taomeow is the only one against Taoist Yoga. You know me, I'll agree with everyone.

[Pietro]

... Although I think Taomeow is the only one against Taoist Yoga. ...

Well, no, I am against it too:

 

...

I tend to agree with Tao Meaw. Although I have to say I never managed to read much of Charles Luk. Yes, I have it, yes I have tried it, but my internal censor stopped me, calling bullshit.

...

 

What we should avoid instead is:

1.) find a book that is very popular and sounds taoist-like (Luk, not taoists...)

2.) read it and try to practice from the book according to your understanding.

...

[三江源]

I am also not in favour of starting with Taoist Yoga.

 

I also have Robinet, as PIetro mentioned. also Kohn.

 

I would be very very happy if we could study the basics together. They arent really 'basic', are they.. they're Fundamental.

 

I would love the opportunity to do this with you, as I have studied alone, and had literally no - one to speak to about these books.

 

In a way it has been a magical journey of excitement inextricably linked with isolation.

 

It would be quite an achievement if we became educated together and shared a pool of knowledge.

 

The we could have truly useful sharing.

 

If we have Required Reading as our first term/year.. then we can move onto more diverse texts, with a solid shared background.

 

It depends how seriously you want to take the book club...

[Mal]

Well, no, I am against it too:

 

Fair enough, thats 2

[三江源]

*coughs*

[joeblast]

I think that since there is already the 'group re-translation of taoist yoga' thread then we might as well skip it for book club purposes. There's already an existing discussion on it.

I did just start reading it, though

[Mal]

Sorry, my excuse is I was watching the football, missed you on the page turn.

 

Seriously, perhaps we should reconsider Taoist Yoga Rain, Pietro, Cat and Taomeow are people I would listen to (Although technically Rain was swayed by Taomeows review)

 

We can always do it later, not after years of trudging through Taoist History please I was thinking book club not study group

[doc benway]

I think we're all more or less in agreement that a more basic overview of Daoism would be a good place to start for this endeavor. Here are three titles that I think would qualify. Please post any other introductory or basic books you'd suggest and we'll select one and move forward.

1. Eva Wong: The Shambala Guide to Taoism

2. Livia Kohn: Daoism and Chinese Culture

3. Isabelle Robinet: Taoism: Growth of a Religion