Inaugural Book Selection - Taoist Yoga

[Yoda]

Wait a second... how is Rain going to read her book???

[Pietro]

Wait a second... how is Rain going to read her book???

I volunteer to read it to her.

[doc benway]

I volunteer to read it to her.

I could try a direct transmission...

[Onigiri]

I vote for Eva Wong, but only because that means I don't have to buy a new book. It's sitting here ready for me.

[Pietro]

I vote for ...

 

I think if we are starting to vote we should clarify the possible positions.

 

Just voting for something or for something else is a bit too simplistic (when I am around to suggested more complicated ways ). Essentially because it does not differentiate between if you might not prefer something, but you would still read it, or you would not prefer something, and you would NOT read it, if it gets chosen.

 

So here is a simple way of voting that actually takes care of all this:

 

1) list ALL the books that you are willing to read this coming month (not eventually, not yesterday, just now at the next time)

2) order that list from the one you prefer to the one you least prefer.

 

END.

 

Nothing more, it is that easy. If you don't write a book we assume you WILL NOT read it this month. If you don't vote we don't consider you. If you vote we assume that you will read and take part in the subsequent discussion.

 

 

How then the vote could be counted.

 

First count for each book how many people are willing to read them. Pick the highest one.

In the unlike, but not impossible case that there is a parity then we start consider the preferences. There are many ways to do this, but the fairest, mathemarthically is to use a condercet voting scheme.

 

 

The idea of voting for multiple possibilities is a very good one, and it is used in many systems. One of the systems where it is used is to chose the Secretary of the UN. It tend to give a more fair result that just picking up the highest. This because when you pick up the highest all sort of "democratic games" can be done (think about a modern democracy as an example, where you often have 45% on the right, 55% on the left. But the left is further splitted into 35% and 20% and the result is that the right gets the office much more often).

 

So to condense all in one phrase:

I vote for Eva Wong

 

Forget who you vote for:

Can you tell us ALL the books that you would read?

 

 

For me of the books we spoke so far:

1. Livia Kohn: Daoism and Chinese Culture

2. Eva Wong: The Shambala Guide to Taoism

3. Isabelle Robinet: Taoism: Growth of a Religion

 

And if any of the other get chosen, I'll wait for next month.

[doc benway]

I don't want things to get too complicated. Here's how I propose we work this out. We currently have 3 possible book suggestions. The floor is open for additional recommendations. On Wednesday, I'll create a poll with no more than 5 selections and we'll vote. We'll close the poll on Saturday and have our selection. In the interim, Pietro's idea of listing your choices of a basic, introductory text on Daosim in order of preference, #1 being the highest, would be a good way to generate the poll options.

Does that sound fair?

Thanks for all the input, everybody.

[Onigiri]

Apologies, I didn't read Xuesheng's post #25 properly. I'll be back later if I have more suggestions for the poll.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Onigiri

[Pietro]

I don't want things to get too complicated. Here's how I propose we work this out. We currently have 3 possible book suggestions. The floor is open for additional recommendations. On Wednesday, I'll create a poll with no more than 5 selections and we'll vote. We'll close the poll on Saturday and have our selection. In the interim, Pietro's idea of listing your choices of a basic, introductory text on Daosim in order of preference, #1 being the highest, would be a good way to generate the poll options.

Does that sound fair?

Thanks for all the input, everybody.

Hello Steve.

Sorry, I went too fast.

I feel like I might have usurped your position for a second.

Please, forgive me.

 

May I just suggest that instead of a poll, where you could very easily have fake results

(you know situation where 5 people want Luk and would not read any other, 6 would read either Wang or Robinet (but would not read Luk),

and the result is:

Luk 5,

Wang 3,

Robinet 3),

 

can you please just ask people to write all the books that they are willing to read. It is not more complicated, and it would make sure that the result reflects the book that would have the biggest number of people reading it.

 

To do this you can just ask people to make a post in the new thread (you need to make a new thread in any case if you want to make a poll) and write all the books they are willing to read. In any order.

 

Cheers,

Pietro

[freesun]

Just wanted to say that a book club in this fashion is a really great idea.

Edited February 4, 2008 by freesun

[mYTHmAKER]

I am for basics. Start with and build a foundation.

Always go back to the basics.

If you understand fundamentals you have the tools to understand anything.

I have no preferences and am not sure if I have time to read a book at present time

but I will try. I'm too busy writing on the Haiku thread

[doc benway]

Hello Steve.

Sorry, I went too fast.

I feel like I might have usurped your position for a second.

Please, forgive me.

 

May I just suggest that instead of a poll, where you could very easily have fake results

(you know situation where 5 people want Luk and would not read any other, 6 would read either Wang or Robinet (but would not read Luk),

and the result is:

Luk 5,

Wang 3,

Robinet 3),

 

can you please just ask people to write all the books that they are willing to read. It is not more complicated, and it would make sure that the result reflects the book that would have the biggest number of people reading it.

 

To do this you can just ask people to make a post in the new thread (you need to make a new thread in any case if you want to make a poll) and write all the books they are willing to read. In any order.

 

Cheers,

Pietro

I think I'll stick with requesting recommendations for books then narrowing that down to no more than 5 options and go with a poll. Otherwise, we may have too numerous a selection - 17 different books, each getting one or two votes. If certain people choose not to read the selection, they can rejoin the discussion the following month. I appreciate your input.

Steve

[Oolong Rabbit]

See what you got yourself into Steve! Here's the thing. It's already the 4th. If anyone has to order a book online they likely won't get it until March. I say stick with Taoist Yoga for Feb, unless there's a title that most of us have on hand (and odds are I do). As for Taomeow's suggestion about the classics, I am in agreement with Mal. I was thinking more of a book club than a course in Taoism. Not that the latter is without merit, but it might be a little heavy for some folks.

[三江源]

Well I guess there could be more than one book club going on at the same time.

 

More choice.

[VCraigP]

See what you got yourself into Steve! Here's the thing. It's already the 4th. If anyone has to order a book online they likely won't get it until March. I say stick with Taoist Yoga for Feb, unless there's a title that most of us have on hand (and odds are I do). As for Taomeow's suggestion about the classics, I am in agreement with Mal. I was thinking more of a book club than a course in Taoism. Not that the latter is without merit, but it might be a little heavy for some folks.

 

 

Oolong. I am sorry it takes so long for you to get books! I usually get in stock books from Amazon in 2-3 days.

I'm spoiled sinced Portland is so close to where most stock ships from(Seattle).

 

Pietro

You definitely Usurped the moderators position...oh, well, but some good thoughts put forward.

 

Taomeow

In an earlier post you mentioned some books, most of which I had never heard of (blush).

Can you provide a reading list of books? It seems like you could have quite an extensive input in this area.

Maybe even a list with classifications such as: Foundation information, Advanced material still useful for the beginner. Advanced material hard to work with unless you have a foundation and a teacher, Totally arcane and only for the adept. something along these lines?

 

PS- Regarding this comment "that among the Five Phases Earth stands in the center" What is wrong with this statement? Is it not part of the circle And the center of the circle? 4 is 5 and 5 is 4. Sorry for the tangent but this seems relatively simple for you to clarify.

 

PPS - Since you have made a skathing review of C.Luk perhaps you can also comment on why you view Eva Wong as acceptable? I have some small idea why but since your comments about C.Luk carried some weight I thought it might have some merit for you to comment in the positive on Eva Wong.

 

Xuesheng

Loving this bookclub idea, although it does seem rather organized and linear for a Taobums activity

My preference would be to see assembled an extensive list of Tao classics, authors, etc. that would be assembled in one place, instead of as a thread. Hence my above query to Taomeow. Not quite sure of how that would be done, but I am pretty sure it would be a simple thing.

 

I am along for the ride. Will probably remain neutral as to what book is chosen.

 

Craig

[Taomeow]

Craig,

 

thanks for trusting my judgment -- I'll do my best, but I have to warn you (and others) that my reading list is very biased -- e.g., I wouldn't have much to contribute to a list of books by researchers of taoism who are not taoists themselves (or at least proficient practitioners of certain taoists arts and sciences. With some exceptions, of course.) Another problem. Some of the taoist literature I've read has been translated into Russian but not into English; or maybe it was translated into both but I never found out if an English version exists for something I read in Russian. I might take a guess and try to do a Pinyin rendition of a Cyrillic version of a Chinese title but whether it's going to be legible and recognizable is anyone's guess. Anyway, I'll try to try.

 

To your question about earth in the center:

"earth" is a name used for at least three distinctly different fundamental taoist systems, and while the systems are interdependent and inter-penetrating, the terms they use to designate certain phenomena are not interchangeable. In other words, it's not the same kind of earth that we see in the bagua, in the Nine Palaces, and in the Wuxing system. Taoist "earth" is not unlike any good old English term that happens to have multiple meanings and can only be clearly understood from the context: e.g., "my energy expenditures are low in this apartment" may mean I'm a couch potato or it may mean I don't pay much for electricity. It's the overall context that makes these two meanings quite impossible to mistake one for the other.

 

Well, Luc does everything in his power to make one confuse different kinds of "earth" and mistake one for the other. Earth is in the center in the immobile Nine Palaces of Xian Tian. Since immobilizing everything that moves is one of Luc's ideas of cultivation, he resorts to a sleight-of-hand trick and sneaks into this central immobile place an altogether different earth from the Wuxing system. To make it easier to believe he calls what he's juggling into a place where they don't belong the "five elements," whereas in reality they are "five stages of change" or "five phases of transformation" or "five types of Hou Tian qi" -- i.e. phenomena/manifestations impossible to either centralize, arrange hierarchically, or immobilize by default. In Wuxing, earth is NOT in the center, it is in the cycle, the cycle that can't do without it being part of it, a cycle that falls apart if you place ANYTHING in its center. Luc however goes ahead and pretends it is -- which destroys the whole dynamics and makes it, indeed, "mysterious" and "incomprehensible to mere mortals" whereas in reality it is fairly obvious and beautifully meaningful -- if left unmolested. Luc causes the Wuxing cycle to fall apart in his rendition and consequently winds up with high-flown garbage like "One vitality first divides in two, the positive and negative which, by taking fixed positions, then beget the five elements, each in a different location. Hence the element of earth causes that of metal to develop, that of wood to prosper, that of water to stop and that of fire to cease." I can't even begin telling you how wrong this is and on how many levels.

 

I'll get back to the Eva Wong question later, gotta go... thanks for lending me your ear!

[Mal]

It's already the 4th. If anyone has to order a book online they likely won't get it until March.

 

Same problem for most non-US readers, usually can't get this sort of stuff at the local bookshop, most Amazon delivery options are $30US for me {and people complain about the Kunlun book being expensive!}

 

Perhaps we were to eager trying to get ready for Feb? Do people want to post out a few reviews of what they are already reading for this month? Surprised to see the negative Luk reviews since it gets tossed about a bit here. Might have been nice to know about that earlier, but I still look forward to reading it. If we can decide in a week or so we could be ready for March so I'm tossing suggestions into the March thread.

 

But I'm sensing rather polarized reading tastes and levels of expertise

"One vitality first divides in two, the positive and negative which, by taking fixed positions, then beget the five elements, each in a different location. Hence the element of earth causes that of metal to develop, that of wood to prosper, that of water to stop and that of fire to cease." I can't even begin telling you how wrong this is and on how many levels.

o.k. I just read that and it seem like stuf I have heard of before "one divides into two" etc, chinese elemental theory, nothing that would annoy me.

 

Still keen for the club idea, its going to make me read things I normally wouldn't bother buying (I wonder if the library can get this sort of stuff instead) learning is good, push outside of the comfort zone.

[joeblast]

"mysterious" and "incomprehensible to mere mortals" whereas in reality it is fairly obvious and beautifully meaningful -- if left unmolested. Luc causes the Wuxing cycle to fall apart in his rendition and consequently winds up with high-flown garbage like "One vitality first divides in two, the positive and negative which, by taking fixed positions, then beget the five elements, each in a different location. Hence the element of earth causes that of metal to develop, that of wood to prosper, that of water to stop and that of fire to cease." I can't even begin telling you how wrong this is and on how many levels.

I'd be curious to hear Drew's takes on technicalities like this. The books seems to make sense if pondered enough...but then again, I do not have a superlative understanding of this stuff.

[Pietro]

Pietro

You definitely Usurped the moderators position...oh, well, but some good thoughts put forward.

 

Yeah. The fact is that having studied math, and having had some interest in politics, I then went to see why is it that all the times it seemed that everybody wanted something, but the result of the elections brought a different results. From here I realised how the "normal" voting way where you just give one vote is essentially broken. And can easily be hacked by having a small(er) number of people vote all in the same way. Interesting historically all this was well known, and came out as part of some studies after the french revolution by the Marquis de Condorcet (1743-1794). The whole Condorcet method has never (to my knowledge) been implemented for a country. Mostly because it requires computers to calculate the results (again, for a country). But there are simpler systems, which give the Condorcet winner nearly all the times. They generally work by letting a person either chose all the 'acceptable' results, or let a person rank all the candidates in order of preference. The last one is quite hard on the voters, especially if you have many candidates. But even if you have 300 candidates, and people are allowed to list all the ones that they are happy with you get a result that mathemathically is sound.

 

So you can imagine my frustration in seeing those wonderful systems having been developed and studied, and being always relegated in journal papers. Not allowed to see the light of day for fear that they might end up actually bring up the desires of the people to the power that be. So if at the end of this, at least one of you have gone to read about different voting systems, and how it is possible to control a country, just by setting up a voting procedure instead of another, I will feel satisfied.

 

Interestings when we had TB, and we needed to chose the name, I implemented a Condorcet voting between us, after having taken the whole list of all the possibilities. Ron was so impressed that for a moment he actually slept out of his role, saying how if we had that system in place in the US, Bush would not be in power.

 

I am along for the ride. Will probably remain neutral as to what book is chosen.

Which means that you are willing to read any book that we chose? Wow! Let's get something looong and boring, and then ask Craig to tell us what is it about

Edited February 5, 2008 by Pietro

[Mal]

[Mal]

I'd be curious to hear Drew's takes on technicalities like this. The books seems to make sense if pondered enough...but then again, I do not have a superlative understanding of this stuff.

That is the way I feel. Could also be due to lack of knowledge on my part too. But I feel that everything is basically trying to describe the same indescribable thing. It's only when you try to get specific that things appear different.

[VCraigP]

[Taomeow]

Nice take on the Wuxing, Craig. And your teacher is very wise! Yes, each phase has all five within it, just like a child has all his/her parents and grandparents and ancestors within, as well as all his/her own future children! That, in addition to each phase having a yin aspect and a yang aspect, so Yin Water may well come close to Metal while Yang Water might start manifesting some aspects of Wood behavior -- at the very outer margins of each process the distinctions start to blur... so you can stab someone with an icicle, hit them in the head with an ice cube -- that's Yin Water behaving indistinguishably from Metal for some purposes...

 

Which raises another question in my mind. Is it possible to get true inspriation and make true progress from a source which might be flawed but still provides enough clues to advance one's investigation?

Absolutely! Happened to me more than once. Anything can work as a catalyst if the inner process is destined to happen. But it doesn't mean it "never matters" what the catalyst is, what the process is. It's just that in "some cases," whatever you practice, you start unfolding -- long as you practice. I suspect that's the case with Drew. He is passionate and patient, extremely expansive in his search (I could bet his primary Phase is Wood and his second best represented one is Fire), he's bound to incorporate whatever he encounters into his own system and transform it into "an aspect of Drew" rather than what it used to be in the original, maybe not even knowing that that's what he did. I'm not unlike that too, so I understand... But whatever he got from Luk is his own merit, it could have been anyone, anything else and the outcome would be similar.

[doc benway]

 

One more thing. Let's keep the book subject matter limited to Taoism. Krisnamurti and the other one suggested may be gems, but they are decidedly not Taoist in origin.

 

Craig

I'm going to have to disagree with you Craig. We discuss a lot more on this forum than Daoism and I'd prefer that we not limit ourselves too much. I'd like to see us have the freedom to make recommendations from a wider range and the book selection process will take care of the rest.

Steve

PS The nature of Krishnamurti's work is about first hand experience of the Dao - it doesn't get much more Daoist than that. He just doesn't use that particular label...

[doc benway]

OK - as expected, things don't go as smoothly as one would like in getting a new project going. No worries - this is going to be fun!

 

Wednesday is 2 hours away and I've yet to see any additional suggestions for basic books on Daoism. Eva Wong's book has been mentioned by a few folks, is widely available, and a few people seem to already have it. As some of us are getting concerned about the time factor, I think we should bite the bullet and dive in.

 

Rather than waste a few more days with a poll on basic books, I'm going to make Eva Wong's : The Shambala Guide to Taoism our first selection.

I would like to start discussing it ~ March 1st but we can always delay that by a week or two if some of us are late getting our copies - please let us know if that is a problem.

 

I hope no one is too disappointed. Things will be more democratic moving forward. I just think it's important for us to get started and see what happens.

 

Let the games begin!!!!

[Mal]

But I'm already discussing Taoist yoga

 

I'm happy with Eva Wongs book. It will be a week before I can purchase it, but it's in fishpond so shouldn't be a problem I'll grab another book as well and get free postage. Would like to get Original Tao: Inward Training (Nei-Yeh) but Fishpond only had the hardback. I hope we will get some cool suggestions in the next week.

 

I'm flodding the other thread with recent books of mine to see who is reading the same sort of stuff as me.