The uncarved block?

[wandelaar]

Derek Lin says in his translation of the Tao Te Ching that the common translation of pu as "uncarved block" is wrong. Is that correct?

[OldDog]

I checked my translation from Lin Yutang and in footnote he defines it as ...

 

P'u, important Taoist idea, the uncarved, the unembellished, the natural goodness and honesty of man. Generally used to mean simplicity, plainness of heart and living.

 

I have lent out my copy of Derek Lin. What does he have to say about the translation of Pu?

 

[wandelaar]

Derek Lin's interpretation can be read on Google Books:

 

[Jeff]

The "uncarved block" and it's broader meaning is a critical aspect of the description of progression in chapter 28 of the TTC. It is something that happens when one is the "valley of the universe".

[wandelaar]

The problem in the translation appears to be the term "block". I never understood why it had to be a block. But when the block-part of the translation is simply wrong, the term becomes much easier to understand.

[Marblehead]

I always like "new-born calf" when used instead of "uncarved block".

 

[wandelaar]

 

Don't know what to think.....

[Marblehead]

3 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Don't know what to think.....

Take your time.  You've got the rest of your life.

 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

The problem in the translation appears to be the term "block". I never understood why it had to be a block. But when the block-part of the translation is simply wrong, the term becomes much easier to understand.

 

Relates to an uncarved block of wood.  In this case it means the same as "formless". The previous stage in the chapter is being the "valley of the universe", which is being the lowest point or the edge of all form (universe). Beyond that would be "beyond form" (or uncharted).  Which is also that which cannot be named (Tao). 

[OldDog]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

I never understood why it had to be a block

 

I get your point ... but never was too concerned since I understood the concept.

 

Words ... language ... is funny.  Different words conjure up different images for different people. As said ... once you have the meaning, you can forget the words.

[Lost in Translation]

My copy of The Shambala Dictionary of Taoism defines P'u as "rough timber, an unhewn block." It also mentions "new-born child" and "raw silk." The idea of raw silk is new to me. I guess I don't frequent those particular circles...

[wandelaar]

Just now, Lost in Translation said:

My copy of The Shambala Dictionary of Taoism defines P'u as "rough timber, an unhewn block." It also mentions "new-born child" and "raw silk." The idea of raw silk is new to me. I guess I don't frequent those particular circles...

 

So Marblehead was serious after all?

[rideforever]

Before division, virginal, accepting all impressions but not holding any, natural, surrendering, perfectly ready but never consumed.

 

All that arises is surrendered directly into the origin, the only existence left in the uncarved block is the origin itself.

[wandelaar]

Looks like Lin is correct:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pu_(Daoism)

[wandelaar]

Lets take as our translation "uncarved wood". Now we have the question in what sense the sage should stay simple, natural, etc. Somebody who by hard work and training has reached mastership in some special art would seem to have deviated from the ideal of the uncarved wood. Would Lao tzu disapprove of such a way of life?

Edited August 16, 2018 by wandelaar

[Lost in Translation]

3 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Lets take as our translation "uncarved wood". Now we have the question in what sense the sage should stay simple, natural, etc. Somebody who by hard work and training has reached mastership in some special art would seem to have deviated from the ideal of the uncarved wood. Would Lao tzu disapprove of such a way of life?

 

Long ago I read somewhere that the sage is a master of many things. Whereas some people master a narrow subject and others gain shallow skill across a great swathe, the sage masters the great swathe. This idea has stuck with me, that the sage is a master of all things, and this goes hand in hand with both P'u and Wu Wei. It goes hand in hand with P'u in that the sage does not define himself as either this or that. As a result he can be both or neither. Once mastering a skill he is not "a master of a skill", thus he can master other skills too, as he sees fit. It goes hand in hand with Wu Wei in that the sage acts naturally, flowing through life, doing what needs to be done with whatever level of skill is required and is not confined by preconceived notions.

[wandelaar]

@ LiT

 

That is too good to be true. No human being can be a master of all things. There is no time for that. Trying to do so would only result in not being good at anything at all. But maybe Lao tzu did think it possible, and thus was simply wrong here? Or maybe he was referring to a superhuman ideal of the sage?

[OldDog]

53 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Somebody who by hard work and training has reached mastership in some special art would seem to have deviated from the ideal of the uncarved wood.

 

I would not make that leap. If one takes the Uncarved Block metaphor in the sense of simplicity, plainess of heart and living, unembellished, it is not hard to imagine someone retaining that quality while refining his art. 

 

Consider the styles of chinese and japanese art where the painting is sparse and makes extensive use of space. Or, caligraphy. Or, tea ceremony. There are probably other countless masteries that strive for simplicity and economy of form and motion. Indeed, these are possible only becuase the master is able to maintain a sense of humility, frugality and simplicity ... and focus. I think Laotse would be accepting of that.

 

[wandelaar]

Yes OldDog, that makes sense.

[Lost in Translation]

52 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

That is too good to be true. No human being can be a master of all things.

 

Perhaps the word "master" is to blame. Let's replace that with "competence." The sage develops sufficient competence to do whatever needs be done. If he needs master level competence then he develops that. The takeaway is not specific skill level but rather sufficient skill level.

[silent thunder]

The Sage is in the world but not of it. 

 

No matter what conditions spring from dao, the Sage occupies the center, taking no sides, having no fixed notions of should and should not.  Mastery does not need to imply incredible learning, or intricacy of plans and devices. 

True mastery is exemplified in simplicity.  Why spend years learning to carve designs, gears, cranes and levers, when all is needed is a simple block of wood to chock the wheels of the wagon, while you load it?

 

A small action at the key moment of shifting conditions, brings rapid change without much force.

 

In this wu wei, the Sage, being fully present, perceives conditions with clarity and thus with simplicity notes where to apply minimal force to achieve great result.  Without need to invest in long drawn out and intricate plans, the Sage may respond adroitly in any situation and is perceived a Master in all situations. 

 

While remaining an uncarved, unresplendent, non-fussy demeanor and approach to conditions of life, releasing expectations and notions of how things should, or should not be, the Sage with minimal effort in any situation brings about vital effects and carries conveys the appearance of mastership, to those who look at the center from somwhere on the circle.

Edited August 16, 2018 by silent thunder
changed a word

[rene]

3 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

My copy of The Shambala Dictionary of Taoism defines P'u as "rough timber, an unhewn block." It also mentions "new-born child" and "raw silk." The idea of raw silk is new to me. I guess I don't frequent those particular circles...

The take-away is... what is the common thread between them?

 

P'u is the moment of manifestation, when potential is at its fullest...and then whatever is to come, begins.

Edited August 16, 2018 by rene

[Lost in Translation]

2 minutes ago, rene said:

P'u is the moment of manifestation, when potential is at its fullest...and then whatever is to come, begins.

 

Pooh is also a cute bear.

 

Spoiler

 

[rene]

1 minute ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Pooh is also a cute bear.

 

  Hide contents

 

Follow the Tao of Pooh, do you?

[wandelaar]

1 hour ago, Lost in Translation said:

Perhaps the word "master" is to blame. Let's replace that with "competence." The sage develops sufficient competence to do whatever needs be done. If he needs master level competence then he develops that. The takeaway is not specific skill level but rather sufficient skill level.

That could be. But the idea of only developing skills where there is a need to do so rules out developing and enjoying a specific mastership for the sheer fun of it. I think there is a difference here between Lao tzu and Chuang  tzu. Lao tzu is the more rigorous one of the two, holding up one ideal picture of the sage for all to follow.  Chuang tzu understands that people are different and cannot all be forced into one and the same ideal sagely mould. Further Chuang tzu appreciates humor and playing around for no reason in particular.

Edited August 16, 2018 by wandelaar