The uncarved block?

[Stosh]

I like the block part , 'uncarved woodness' , would lack the irony and complexity of understanding , that although the form is not contrived, it still has form. 

[Lost in Translation]

14 minutes ago, Stosh said:

I like the block part , 'uncarved woodness' , would lack the irony and complexity of understanding , that although the form is not contrived, it still has form. 

 

'Uncarved woodness' is wood in its natural state, i.e. exactly what the tree wanted it to be. An 'uncarved block' is wood with a (human) purpose that has not been defined yet.

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2018 by Lost in Translation
replaced "e.g." with "i.e." since I always forget which is which. :(

[Marblehead]

5 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

So Marblehead was serious after all?

I glad some of our members still wonder if I'm being serious or just joking.

 

5 hours ago, wandelaar said:

It also mentions "new-born child" and "raw silk." The idea of raw silk is new to me.

Yes, I too have seen "new-born child" but not "raw silk".

 

 

[Marblehead]

5 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Lets take as our translation "uncarved wood". Now we have the question in what sense the sage should stay simple, natural, etc. Somebody who by hard work and training has reached mastership in some special art would seem to have deviated from the ideal of the uncarved wood. Would Lao tzu disapprove of such a way of life?

I like to view it more at:

 

The carved block is set in its way as tooled by someone else and likely unusable for any other purpose .  The uncarved block is still in its true natural state.  Full potential is still with it.

 

 

[silent thunder]

6 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I glad some of our members still wonder if I'm being serious or just joking.

Wait! ...    what?

[wandelaar]

Just now, Marblehead said:

The carved block is set in its way as tooled by someone else and likely unusable for any other purpose .  The uncarved block is still in its true natural state.  Full potential is still with it.

 

So you see it as that the sage should not let society spoil his true natural state, and thus pu doesn't have to do with the skills or mastership the sage does or does not have?

Edited August 16, 2018 by wandelaar

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

So you see it as that the sage should not let society spoil his true natural state, and thus pu doesn't have to do with the skills or mastership the sage does or does not have?

Exactly.  Doesn't matter the skills of the Sage.  The life of the Sage and how it is lived is what matters.

 

In the news again is the problem of Catholic clergy sexually abusing children.  These clergy could never be considered a Sage.

 

[OldDog]

15 hours ago, Marblehead said:

The carved block is set in its way as tooled by someone else and likely unusable for any other purpose .  The uncarved block is still in its true natural state.  Full potential is still with it.

 

So, the virtue is in the potential represented by the unconditioned state. Nice. It allows for growth and movement.

 

This interpretation resolves the seeming objections to the term "uncarved block". Shows that we can better understand what is meant by uncarved by asking what it means to be carved. A good device to keep in mind. Should be helpful on other analysis as well.

 

[Kar3n]

15 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I glad some of our members still wonder if I'm being serious or just joking.

 

Yes, I too have seen "new-born child" but not "raw silk".

 

 

I've seen it referred to as uncut jade too.

[Chang]

How we do love to debate and discuss concepts and yet only succeed in their obfuscation.

 

Lau Tzu was keen to point out that "My words are very easy to understand."  Whilst the Old Boy may have said this with his tongue well and truly in his cheek yet it still holds true.

 

The problem with interpreting such concepts as the uncarved block is that they can be viewed at many levels and we can only achieve understanding from the level of consciousness we have achieved. In this respect it is similar to reading the Tai Chi classics. Whilst didactic in nature we can only really understand what is described when we can already achieve it. As such it would be useless to attempt to learn tai chi by their study but they are of immense value as signposts to show us how well we are progressing on our journey.

 

When teaching the Taoist Internal Arts I often use the concept of return to the uncarved state as an example of letting go of the extraneous. As an example the simple act of moving from one stance and posture to another should be as simple and powerful as the flowing of a great river and can be, so long as we let go of all unnecessary movement as well as tension. This would simply be one way of looking at the return to the uncarved state. It is no great leap to see how the idea could apply to all manner of facets of our existance. As an example in meditation the return to the uncarved state would be a letting go of our monkey mind and relaxing into the peace which passeth all understanding.

 

In matters such as these it is all too easy to lose sight of the wood for the trees and to needlessly worry as to whether we are talking about a block of stone, a block of wood or a block of jade is to miss the point entirely. Perhaps simply thinking in terms of a return to the uncarved state may better point the way or perhaps it will also end in misinterpretation and confusion.

 

As in so much of life less thought and more silent understanding will pave the road to wisdom but this too is simply a return to the state of the uncarved block.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by Chang

[Lost in Translation]

Learning is a funny thing.

 

First you teach with words. Words piled upon words. And they are just that, words.

 

Then the student tries and fails. Failure piled upon failure. But it's just practice.

 

Then maybe, just maybe, there is the "A ha!" moment when all the words crystallize into understanding, and all the practice becomes silly, since it's not really practice but doing. Doing after doing. And the doing becomes not doing.

 

Before enlightenment, carry water.

After enlightenment, carry water.

 

[Marblehead]

4 hours ago, Kar3n said:

I've seen it referred to as uncut jade too.

I can understand that and silk as well as both are important in Chinese culture.

 

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, Chang said:

Perhaps simply thinking in terms of a return to the uncarved state may better point the way

Yes.  "Uncarved" is the important concept here.  Doesn't matter it be wood, jade or marble.

 

[Lost in Translation]

7 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Yes.  "Uncarved" is the important concept here.  Doesn't matter it be wood, jade or marble.

 

That's what she said!

 

[Marblehead]

3 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

That's what she said!

 

She who, when, where?

 

I was just agreeing with Chang.

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

Woman in the ancient world where buried with their favorite carved jade in a particular shape that suited them .If this jade was not carved it could take on any shape or form. We can change shape at will round one minute square the next.

[Lost in Translation]

4 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

She who, when, where?

 

I was just agreeing with Chang.

 

 

It's an old joke... 

 

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/thats-what-she-said

 

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

It's an old joke... 

 

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/thats-what-she-said

 

Went right over my head.  Hadn't heard it before.  And no, I'm not going to work with what is in the link.

 

[wandelaar]

What are the major advantages and disadvantages of trying to be like uncarved wood? And are there concrete examples of how those advantages and disadvantages manifest in actual practice?

[Marblehead]

What a couple of questions!!!  

 

1.  We get to be our natural self within the limits of the society we live in.

 

2.  We get to do things that come naturally to us.  Fewer mistakes, fewer sorrows.

 

 

[Stosh]

And that's on TOP of having everyone obey your advice ,everyone will like you , you live forever , manipulate the weather , fly , and amass riches. ... chop up meats.. 

Oh! and you'll be impervious to rhinos. 

The downside is that you have to sit and do nothing all the time , ..except stare south like the North star.

Edited August 17, 2018 by Stosh

[Lost in Translation]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

What are the major advantages and disadvantages of trying to be like uncarved wood? And are there concrete examples of how those advantages and disadvantages manifest in actual practice?

 

I don't say "I am this" or "I am not that", therefore I can be what I choose to be when I choose to be it.

[wandelaar]

8 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

I don't say "I am this" or "I am not that", therefore I can be what I choose to be when I choose to be it.

 

That's a good one. Indeed when one goes around claiming to be such or so then the whole idea of who we are and what we are worth becomes dependent one that one aspect of our current life. That would be a big obstacle to changing when our circumstances demand it. I like this interpretation because it doesn't say anything about the sage being able to be a master of all things, but only that the sage doesn't have to face the usual obstacles of those who get stuck in just one social role.

[OldDog]

I continue to be intrigued by the comments (Marblehead, Rene, et al) made regarding the notion of potential from the position of simplicity of the undivided block of wood.

 

I went back and re-read several translations of DDJ28. In that chapter the idea of the uncarved block seems to be one of a desirable state to return to. Return being the operative concept. Suggesting that one conducts oneself maintaining the way of virtue and then returns to a state of empty preparedness and potential ready to respond spontaneously and effortlessly as needed. Responding from the position of simplicity without form ... uncarved, if you will ... assures that future responses are appropriate to circumstances and the time. 

 

I think such an interpretation informs understanding of both Zhuangzi and Nieye.