Forgetting about power and depth, what cultivation systems are most clear and simple?

[thelerner]

I wish it were closer to computer science, with clear instructions, some systems are closer to that.  Maybe that's the question that should be asked.  Not what's the most powerful or fastest system, rather which one is the most clear, ie step by step, saying which signs you need before getting to the next level.

 

What system is satisfying as a Snickers and keeps instructions clear and simple?  Not the best or most powerful but simple, a to b to c.  Explaining what to do, and giving sign posts along the way. 

[voidisyinyang]

without celibacy of mind and body, then the energy is stuck at the "generative force" level - just yin and yang qi (not Yuan Qi).

This is why so few achieve real "power." The generative force can be used for healing that is mainly preventative.

To achieve power, celibacy along with storing up of qi, via purification by spirit (shen fire) is necessary - through meditation with the eyes closed.

Even more "orientalists" do not value meditation but rather just doing standing active practice without even celibacy - so how can real results be achieved? Westerners are too materialistic.

https://archive.org/stream/TaoistYogaAlchemyAndImmortalityLuKuanYCharlesLuk/Taoist Yoga Alchemy and Immortality Lu K’uan Yü (Charles Luk)_djvu.txt

This book gives the steps very clearly.

[Lost in Translation]

We all speak a different "spiritual language." What is simple to one person is nonsense to another. That said...

 

3 hours ago, thelerner said:

What system is satisfying as a Snickers and keeps instructions clear and simple? 

 

Pray to Kuan Yin. Receive her limitless compassion. Be reborn in Pure Land. Rinse. Repeat. Done.

 

[rideforever]

Well what is your goal ?

[thelerner]

5 hours ago, rideforever said:

Well what is your goal ?

My goal was to have people converse about cultivation systems that were simple and well structured. 

 

 

Lost in Translation had a good answer, imo.  Pray to Kuan Yin.  I've heard it echoed by a couple advanced people here.  Not my cup of tea, but such ways of the heart could be a perfect match or compliment for many.

 

I'd agree that Taoist Yoga Alchemy is a powerful system, but not a particularly simple or clear (imo). 

Edited August 17, 2018 by thelerner

[Aetherous]

I've been impressed with the clarity of Buddhism, particularly as taught by the course in my signature at the bottom of my posts..."Tara's Triple Excellence" program.

Maybe not so much about signposts at certain levels of development, although it does provide some clear thinking on how to gauge enlightenment...but more so the reasoning behind why different things are done is well explained by the course, at least in my opinion. It seems methodical, and is sensible and experiential.

I only made it halfway through the Second Excellence, so maybe it gets muddier later on.

[Lost in Translation]

4 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Lost in Translation had a good answer, imo.  Pray to Kuan Yin.  I've heard it echoed by a couple advanced people here.  Not my cup of tea, but such ways of the heart could be a perfect match or compliment for many.

 

One need not pray to Kuan Yin per-se. One could pray to Jesus, or Krishna, or whomever. The important element is to realize that one cannot do it alone. Any attempt to do it alone is doomed to failure. Heaven provides much help to those who genuinely seek. Take advantage of it, that's why it's there!

[thelerner]

On 8/16/2018 at 7:47 PM, Aetherous said:

I've been impressed with the clarity of Buddhism, particularly as taught by the course in my signature at the bottom of my posts..."Tara's Triple Excellence" program.

Similarly I think one could do worse then getting a book like-  Ajahn Brahms Mindfullness, Bliss, and Beyond; A Meditators Handbook.  A book that keeps it simple, traditional yet relatable.  I find his dharma speeches, widely available on the net, wisdom the way I like it; insight served with a side of humor.

 

-LiT

One need not pray to Kuan Yin per-se. One could pray to Jesus, or Krishna, or whomever. The important element is to realize that one cannot do it alone. Any attempt to do it alone is doomed to failure. Heaven provides much help to those who genuinely seek. Take advantage of it, that's why it's there!

 

I like the prayer aspect, that its heart based.  Yet I think there are systems where where the practitioner goes it alone.  Though perhaps the best of them, also have pieces that go through the heart.  Perhaps purity of spirit or intent brings its own grace without calling for an intermediary. 

Edited August 19, 2018 by thelerner

[Lost in Translation]

I don't want to derail your thread, but I think this might apply. Lots of folks talk about non-duality, that the ultimate reality is a perfect union where all separateness is realized as illusion. Let's posit that is the case. Who are you praying to? Well, yourself! Right? And since you are praying to yourself you really are doing it alone, right? That being the case you might as well pray, since it's fundamentally no different than when Brad Pitt, beat up and bloodied, handed the Fight Club lessons over to Ed Norton for the night...

[liminal_luke]

Maybe spiritual cultivation is a little like investing in the stock market.  Everyone is trying to find the perfect system when most would be better off forgetting systems altogether and focusing instead on simple principles.  Take virtue, for instance.  While ethics can get unbelievably complicated, simply considering what the right thing to do is and doing it puts us way ahead of the curve.  If we add a little kindness to basic decency, the foundation is set for spiritual development.  

 

Everything works better in a body that is relaxed and healthy so that`s something to work on too.  Exercise, diet, some sort of strategy for dealing with stress.  Positive relationships with friends and family.

 

These kinds of things aren`t what`s usually meant when people talk about spiritual systems but the underpinnings of a good life are the underpinnings of good spiritual development.  The best system in the world won`t take you very far if you`re a chain smoking criminal enmeshed in a hostile custody battle for your alienated kids.  First things first.

 

To me, the idea of a system implies component parts.  First you do this, and then, when condition XYZ is reached, you do this other thing.  Trying to follow instructions in a book like Taoist Yoga is harder than putting together modular furniture from IKEA.  And that`s saying something.  If the goal is enlightenment or immortality perhaps such complication is necessary.  But most people would benefit greatly from taking one simple thing and exploring it in depth over a few decades.  Take a basic standing practice like "standing like a tree."   A practice like that deepens and develops over time.   Who among us has taken standing like a tree all the way?  Have any of us gotten all there is to get from simple standing?  I doubt it.  So many things are like that.  The inner smile.  Watching the breath.  I suspect that getting to enlightenment or awakening doesn`t take great cognitive skill.  What it may take is great endurance in the face of boredom.  Many of us already know a system that could potentially take us to enlightenment.  Some of us know many such systems.  And yet we`re still looking because looking is fun.  Spiritual development, as ultimately rewarding as it may be, is often physically and emotionally uncomfortable.  Not fun.

 

(Note: These are just my opinions as someone who claims no particular enlightenment or awakening.  Fact is, I could do with a good deal more spiritual discipline myself.  I do however like to share my thoughts and often do so instead of practicing.  Take with salt.) 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by liminal_luke

[doc benway]

On 8/17/2018 at 5:13 AM, liminal_luke said:

Maybe spiritual cultivation is a little like investing in the stock market.  Everyone is trying to find the perfect system when most would be better off forgetting systems altogether and focusing instead on simple principles.  Take virtue, for instance.  While ethics can get unbelievably complicated, simply considering what the right thing to do is and doing it puts us way ahead of the curve.  If we add a little kindness to basic decency, the foundation is set for spiritual development.  

 

Everything works better in a body that is relaxed and healthy so that`s something to work on too.  Exercise, diet, some sort of strategy for dealing with stress.  Positive relationships with friends and family.

 

These kinds of things aren`t what`s usually meant when people talk about spiritual systems but the underpinnings of a good life are the underpinnings of good spiritual development.  The best system in the world won`t take you very far if you`re a chain smoking criminal enmeshed in a hostile custody battle for your alienated kids.  First things first.

 

To me, the idea of a system implies component parts.  First you do this, and then, when condition XYZ is reached, you do this other thing.  Trying to follow instructions in a book like Taoist Yoga is harder than putting together modular furniture from IKEA.  And that`s saying something.  If the goal is enlightenment or immortality perhaps such complication is necessary.  But most people would benefit greatly from taking one simple thing and exploring it in depth over a few decades.  Take a basic standing practice like "standing like a tree."   A practice like that deepens and develops over time.   Who among us has taken standing like a tree all the way?  Have any of us gotten all there is to get from simple standing?  I doubt it.  So many things are like that.  The inner smile.  Watching the breath.  I suspect that getting to enlightenment or awakening doesn`t take great cognitive skill.  What it may take is great endurance in the face of boredom.  Many of us already know a system that could potentially take us to enlightenment.  Some of us know many such systems.  And yet we`re still looking because looking is fun.  Spiritual development, as ultimately rewarding as it may be, is often physically and emotionally uncomfortable.  Not fun.

 

(Note: These are just my opinions as someone who claims no particular enlightenment or awakening.  Fact is, I could do with a good deal more spiritual discipline myself.  I do however like to share my thoughts and often do so instead of practicing.  Take with salt.) 

 

 

 

You do not need to claim anything, your words betray your depth of insight.

_/\__/\__/\_

 

 

 

[thelerner]

On 8/16/2018 at 8:08 PM, Lost in Translation said:

I don't want to derail your thread, but I think this might apply. Lots of folks talk about non-duality, that the ultimate reality is a perfect union where all separateness is realized as illusion. Let's posit that is the case. Who are you praying to? Well, yourself! Right? And since you are praying to yourself you really are doing it alone, right? That being the case you might as well pray, since it's fundamentally no different than when Brad Pitt, beat up and bloodied, handed the Fight Club lessons over to Ed Norton for the night...

I'll derail my thread for you   , along the same lines, we already think ourselves as Gods.  That the disembodied voice in our head is spouting great wisdom and sees reality accurately.  Probably is not the case. 

 

Beating ourselves up, yeah, despite the godhoodishness, we do that quite a bit too. 

[zerostao]

The continual cultivation of Virtue is all you need. Do that and everything else falls into place.

The "signs" are a by product of cultivating virtue or channeled and are never achieved by having "powers" as a goal.

If one wanted to demonstrate extraordinary abilities they aint never gonna get them.

There are a few that might be able to demonstrate extraordinary abilities, however, without cultivating Virtue, those will diminish and vanish. By cultivating Virtue, Spiritual connections are made and this allows a definite qigong foundation.

edit> I think I just repeated Luke's opening paragraph. Ah well

Edited August 18, 2018 by zerostao

[voidisyinyang]

The hardest part of the Taoist Yoga book is all the people saying not to read it, for various reasons. There's a lot of "blowback" against the book, due to Western biases. But once a person digs into the book - the "word searchable" format makes it easier to follow. So you can just search a word - based on your particular question. Then you don't have to read the book in a linear fashion. Of course a linear reading is good as well. But the instructions in the book are completely consistent and clearly written - and also quite fascinating.

I had an experience that is not described until chapter 11 in that book but I have not seen it described in any other book with such detail.

[dwai]

Advaita Vedanta

[lifeforce]

Namo Amitabha Buddha

[rideforever]

On 17/08/2018 at 1:44 AM, thelerner said:

My goal was to have people converse about cultivation systems that were simple and well structured. 

 

But what is it that you want out of a system ?
Do you have a goal in mind ?   Otherwise how can you decide if a "system" is going to satisfy your goal ?

 

 

[thelerner]

I didn't want to make this post about me.  It's good to ask general questions, see what people think about various topics. 

 

But, what do I want?  Some of that's in my bottom 'signature'.  Course that's materialist, kinda stuff, life in Hawaii, doing something creative, serving drinks and making creative hammocks and terrariums.  Plus Hawaii is a bastion of esoteric arts, a real meeting place between east and west.  Not that I've ever been there.

 

Cultivation wise, after initial decades of energy stuff, I simplified to a years of just sitting.  Now I'm a bit more active things.  When I sit, I'll do a few cycles of counting to 10, then a little bit of Golden Shieldish cycles of breath moving energy down from 3rd eye to dantien, then breath quietly, then just sit.  Lately I'm using a guided meditation on opening the chakras and 3rd eye area. 

 

I don't want anything too crazy, just a slow road to superior health and happiness.  No powers or siddhis, rather self control and  positive mental attitude. 

 

I guess I have smaller goals.  Seems like Bardons Initiation Into Hermetics is too ambitious for me.  I'd like to get through a couple of Rawn Clarks programs.  I tend to start and stop them at random.  Here are the 3 I'd like to pursue in his words(http://abardoncompanion.com/csm/contents.html)-

Rawn’s Self-Healing Archaeous describes a self-healing technique that evolved over a number of years and which I personally have found extremely beneficial.

Although written a couple of years after the CSM, it shares much the same history — pamphlet, very obscure journal and then posting online in 2001 and recording in 2002. With the Archaeous however, the recording was broken down into a series of nine “Lessons” which progressively guide the listener deeper and deeper into various applications of the core technique. The Self-Healing Archaeous techniques have become very popular in the past decade!

Here I present the original 1997 article and transcripts of all nine audio “Lessons”.

 

The Magic of IHVH-ADNI, known commonly as TMO, is very close to my heart and feels to me to be my most important contribution. Of all my work thusfar, TMO has certainly had the greatest impact globally with thousands of practitioners worldwide and more engaging with it every day that passes.

 

I was first introduced to TMO (in a somewhat more rudimentary form than I present here) in the late 1980s under circumstances I will not describe due to their very personal nature. Over the decade that followed, I practiced incessantly and gradually refined the technique. In 1998 I finally found voice to share TMO through an article titled “Attending The Unity”. This too was published as a pamphlet and appeared in the same very obscure journal. And as with the CSM and the Archaeous, it was posted on my website for the first time in 2001, however instead of garnering practitioners at the time, it generated a huge amount of curiosity and questions all of which prompted me to create a series of audio “Lessons” in the TMO practice. The nine TMO audio “Lessons” are my most popular recordings.

 

Shortly after the release of the audio “Lessons” the TMO Working Group was formed to explore the possibilities of using TMO in a group context. The TMO-WG is still going strong with members from across the globe engaged in regular group work. As it turned out, TMO is ideal for group work!

 

Here I present the original 1998 article and transcripts of all nine audio “Lessons”. Additionally, I have included three more recent articles which describe further developments in TMO.

 

If TMO interests you, then I strongly recommend that you download the free audio files by visiting my website ABardonCompanion.com.

 

Know ThySelf was created in 2006 in an effort to clarify experientially (instead of just intellectually) the meaning of the term “self” in an Hermetic context, specifically a Bardonian context. It was presented as a series of three audio files in which the listener is guided through a process of self-recognition. It too has proved quite popular and I’m always receiving requests to continue the audio series! Here I present transcripts of the audio files.

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by thelerner

[rideforever]

2 hours ago, thelerner said:

 

 

Alright well if you want to go to Hawaii why don't you go to Hawaii ?  Or approximate it in some form. 
Go to Costa Rica and play with your coconuts.
( it's a bit cheaper than Hawaii )
Or better than that go to Lake Arenal, with a big hippie seen.
Or just go to Rishikesh and bring coconuts with you. 
Sitting on your bum is not very approximate.

Edited August 20, 2018 by rideforever

[thelerner]

Responsibilities.  As Spiderman said 'With great family comes great responsibility'.

and not coconuts; hammocks,  innovative hammock design and workable terrariums custom decorated using 3D printing. 

 

There's beaches here in the Midwest.  Rum drinks too.  I've been enjoying hanging out at the Oliva bar off Ohio beach.  No waterfalls though.   Still, one can carry the Hawaiian spirit in ones heart.  And get there eventually.  

 

 

:errata I was just looking at a nice design of a tri hammock, made with a base of 3 large concentric rings.  Cool, but I'd rather see more half concentric rings and with fabric strung between two full length half circle.  That could collapse, be side by side, or one lifted up to provide shade. 

[liminal_luke]

3 hours ago, thelerner said:

 

I don't want anything too crazy, just a slow road to superior health and happiness.  No powers or siddhis, rather self control and  positive mental attitude. 

 

 

I love this.  While there`s nothing "wrong" with big spiritual ambitions, this relaxed approach just feels so grounded, mature, and refreshing.  Please post pictures when you wash up on one of the lesser Hawaiian Islands and start bartending.  

[Cheshire Cat]

Cultivation systems are integral components of various philosophical systems. 

 

People think that cultivation produces the proper perception of reality beyond philosophy, but is that true? 

 

 

[yugenphoenix]

My brother join Mercury Fire Blood & Honey. It’s free and open and lays a clear path that leads to real results. There will be no need for anything else for you. It’s a complete path. Watch some of the YouTube videos and you will be hooked (subscribe to the channel too!) and then join us 😊. 

[whitesilk]

 

I am improving day by day in T`ai Chi Ch`uan

 

 

[Marblehead]

And I am increasing my seniorness day by day.