Book Selection for March

[doc benway]

Our list so far:

 

Clear Light of Bliss: The Practice of Mahamudra in Vajrayana Buddhism by Kelsang Gyatso

http://www.amazon.com/Clear-Light-Bliss-Ma...8638&sr=1-6

 

To Be Human by Jiddu Krishnamurti

http://www.amazon.com/Be-Human-Jiddu-Krish...8535&sr=8-1

 

'The Tao of Physics' by Fritjof Capra

http://www.amazon.com/Tao-Physics-Explorat...8662&sr=8-1

(Moderator's note: I've read this book and it's more about modern physics than about Daoism. The word Tao is used as "way" of physics. The focus seems to be a comparison between physics discoveries and principles with Eastern philosophical principles and quotations but it's not a book about Daoism)

 

cat - Before we start multiple book clubs, I'd like to see if we can get one off the ground.

 

Pietro - It is necessary to start selecting future books in advance or we will not be able to discuss a new book each month. We could certainly limit the club to a book every other month or even quarterly but let's see what happens if we try one book per month.

[Onigiri]

OK Moderator - that's a good reason not to read it in our book club then. Not relevant enough. Scratch that one!

[doc benway]

OK Moderator - that's a good reason not to read it in our book club then. Not relevant enough. Scratch that one!

I'm open to a wide range of books and don't want you to feel that I'm saying it's not relevant - just thought I'd share my recollections (I read it a long time ago). If you want to scratch it, I will. If you want to leave it in the poll for now - I'm fine with that. I like exploring the relationship between Eastern philosophy and modern physics - fascinating stuff. Nothing is more in tune with the Dao than string theory, IMO... The holographic model is pretty cool too...

Thanks,

Steve

[Onigiri]

I don't think it'll be popular I'll read it on my own, s'ok. I'm finding it really hard to find other Taoist books myself though. I looked through the Further Reading sections in the Eva Wong and Livia Kohn's name is coming up a lot but it's hard to find something which will suit everyone.

[Pietro]

I don't think it'll be popular I'll read it on my own, s'ok. I'm finding it really hard to find other Taoist books myself though. I looked through the Further Reading sections in the Eva Wong and Livia Kohn's name is coming up a lot but it's hard to find something which will suit everyone.

That one book got me started on taoism 20 years ago. There is half a page of description on taoism that absolutely fascinated me. But I agree with Onigiri. Not relevant.

 

The problem we are having with this club is the fundamental problem we are having in the TB. Here we have a mixture of people. Some are interested in Taoism. Some are interested in Enlightenment. And some only in the intersections. Every time you take a book that is not in the intersection you will have people groumbling wither because it is too academic or because it is not enough taoist.

 

Sorry for the grammar :/, gotta run

[doc benway]

The problem we are having with this club is the fundamental problem we are having in the TB. Here we have a mixture of people. Some are interested in Taoism. Some are interested in Enlightenment. And some only in the intersections.

Is this a problem or an opportunity? It's all a matter of your perspective.

I learn more from people who disagree with me than agree

 

So it looks like we're back to

To Be Human and

Clear Light of Bliss

[三江源]

ok. I dont want to read the krishnamurti at this stage of the book club.

 

I would like to get some Taoism in before diversity kicks in.

 

I would like the Robinet and Kohn books to be second and third.

 

After that I'd like to read some BKFrantzis at some point, as we have someone here who can explicate for us.

 

 

If we have a term of diverse texts as a break from Taoism, I'd like to try something by Barry Long which I know Ian recommends, but I've no acquaintance with.

 

 

Perhaps we can do three months Taoist texts, three months other texts, and people can drop in and out as they like.

[doc benway]

 

I would like the Robinet and Kohn books to be second and third.

 

So I'll take your suggestion for next month to be Robinet -

thanks

 

Here we are:

 

To Be Human

Clear Light of Bliss

Taoism: Growth of a Religion - Isabelle Robinet (trans. Phyllis Brooks)

[三江源]

NOBODY CARES NO MOER ABOUT DA CHEMTRAILS I"M TELLLIN YA

[Oolong Rabbit]

I am in agreement with Steve. I think the club should be open to some peripheral works as well. Let's not make things too rigid. If you don't like a particular suggstion, then just don't vote for it. Seems pretty simple to me. If a book wins and you can't bring yourself to read it, then don't. Personally, I plan to read everything that gets voted. Sometimes you might just be pleasantly surprised.

[Mal]

Seems pretty simple to me. If a book wins and you can't bring yourself to read it, then don't. Personally, I plan to read everything that gets voted. Sometimes you might just be pleasantly surprised.

 

Totally agree, It seems that I don't read that much simmilar stuff to others here but I'm looking forward to broader horizons.

 

Except I'm stalking Onigiri now cause 'The Tao of Physics' by Fritjof Capra is a cool book, read it years ago too.

[Onigiri]

Xuesheng's talking about it on the other thread. I seem to be the only person who hasn't read it so can't join in yet. I might have a go at that at the same time as the Eva Wong and then can post if I get my mind blown (as his was.)

[Pero]

Hate to be a party pooper, but...

 

I've always had an aversion to Kelsang Gyatso: his picture kind of creeps me out and I avoid his books. (Not to make a big deal out of it or anything.) The topics of that book are, basically, the six yogas of naropa and mahamudra. There are other sources for those topics if anyone wants to look a little. Just my two cents.

I've never really connected with Gyatso Rinpche's writings, but I haven't really connected to the whole Gelug path in general.

 

I don't find this surprising... Trunk has connection with Kagyu and Jaloo with Nyingma right? Well Kelsang Gyatso is a leader of a demon worshiping cult (lol sounds kind of dramatic), a demon from the class of Gyalpo (some of the negative provocations this class can cause are nervousness, anxiety and insanity...) who specifically intends to destroy all others not belonging to the Gelugpa lineage, including those of Gelugpa who receive teachings from other schools.

 

Also, from memory, Kelsang Gyatso, made it the protector of his books... So having his books means like inviting the red demon. This is why I think one of Sean Denty's Buddhist teachers, when Sean asked him about this book, said to burn it.

 

"The so-called Drakpa Gyaltsen pretends to be a sublime being, even though he is not, And since this interfering spirit and creature of distorted prayers Is harming everything - both the dharma and sentient beings - Do not support, protect or give him shelter, but grind him to dust." - the 5th Dalai Lama

 

 

Clear Light of Bliss has what I think are FANTASTIC practises in it. What would cover the same ground and not give you the creeps?

 

I think people would love the practises.

 

Love or not, it would be nothing more than a play thing. All those practices require transmssion. That said, I heard that the description of the practices is great. Another book describing these, which I think I remember Trunk mentioning before, is The Practice of the Six Yogas of Naropa by Glenn Mullin, although probably not as very detailed. I've been thinking of getting this book for years, but somehow I always get something else when ordering. A good book on tummo is The Bliss of Inner Fire: Heart Practice of the Six Yogas of Naropa by Lama Yeshe, but again, you need transmission to do the practices.

[三江源]

Gosh Pero, that's gruesome and incredible. Thanks for telling.

 

 

I have actually done the practises in the book, and they were very powerful indeed, and I admired them.

 

Obviously I havent had any transmission, unless it comes from the text itself.

[Pietro]

Gosh Pero, that's gruesome and incredible. Thanks for telling.

I have actually done the practises in the book, ...

Ah, that's why

[Pietro]

I am in agreement with Steve. I think the club should be open to some peripheral works as well. Let's not make things too rigid. If you don't like a particular suggstion, then just don't vote for it. Seems pretty simple to me. If a book wins and you can't bring yourself to read it, then don't. Personally, I plan to read everything that gets voted. Sometimes you might just be pleasantly surprised.

 

Well, it's not that simple because, you see, I and I think cat want to have more time to read out taoist focused books. I mean, 10 days for the whole history of China is really too short. I would like to have some days for each chapter, so we get to read it, comment on it, find out how much it resonates with what we know, and then we have time to ask the fatidic question: do we know any practice from that period? Do we know any one who know any of those practices? Do we know anyone who is practicing a form of taoism which is essentially coming from this period. And generally having a different thread for each chapter.

 

Now all this really cannot be done, if we are all rushing through each chapter, because we need to get everything done at the end of the month. Now you might say that we are free to keep on discussing the whole thing after the month is over, but this is like first reading the book, then discussing it. It is just too fast, and a different exercise all together.

 

But the truth is that you guys were here before. You, and Mal and Xuesheng wanted to have this book club to read taoist yoga, and in general books that you found interesting. And then I, and others started to say that Taoist Yoga was not such a great book, and we should instead read something else, and go slower, and study, and so on. I mean, we are just perverting something which was already there, and that was working fine as it was.

 

So I think that we should find a solution that would fit both. You know how the Taoist Canon has many sections. Well, the Tao Bum canon should have many section as well. The Tao Bums could host two sub-forum: the House of the Great Mystery, and the House of the great Pure. And the House of the great mystery would be a book club where you read, and study all the books that you find interesting, and enlightening, and mysterious, and possibly a bit demonic too. While the House of the great Pure could be aa study group (so not a book club), and it would be of the great Pure because it would just consider books (of course with possible external very rare exceptions) on, or from, taoism. And in the house of the great Pure we go very slowly through the history of taoism, we go deeper trying to connect to the practices that we are doing right now, trying to understand where those practices were originating from. And we try to understand which book we can actually refer to for our own practices. And then yes, like cat suggested, we could then get people from this or that school (she actually said it for BKF, but I am sure we can extend that), to let us go throug the text that they find most representative for their school. I think that this work would require quite a lot of commitment. We probably would not end up reading more than 5 or 6 books a year. But quite deeply. And I think it would be most interesting.

 

And I don't want to describe too much of the House of the great mystery, because you guys should follow your vision, which is obviously different from mine, and possibly cat's, and I suspect others who are more interested in a more pure Taoist approach.

 

If we do open a second sub-forum, with this intent, we could, at the beginning have the two forum start with a one month of difference, so that when one is starting in one book the other is deep in the discussion/reading of their next book. In this way someone really committed could be in both. But of course it is quite hard to keep them syncronised in the long run. And it shouldn't be a primary requirement. Also it might simply not be enough if one group wants to read a book every 30 days, and the other every 45 or 60. But still I assume many people will just drop in and out through both of them, and only few will just stick to one of them. Also it might happen that the same text get read in both places, and then it would be very obvious the different approach between the study group, and the book group.

 

So, yes it can be a problem or an opportunity, and most probably it will be both. I hope that with this solution it can be an opportunity without being too much of a problem.

[Pero]

While the House of the great Pure could be aa study group (so not a book club), and it would be of the great Pure because it would just consider books (of course with possible external very rare exceptions) on, or from, taoism.

 

Alcoholics Anonymous? Pietro, are you trying to tell us something? Do you need help?

 

(edit: I see this is your 666th post. Perhaps it's a sign. )

 

 

 

Book club was a great idea, I wish I could participate. Maybe next year.

Edited February 8, 2008 by Pero

[doc benway]

But the truth is that you guys were here before. You, and Mal and Xuesheng wanted to have this book club to read taoist yoga, and in general books that you found interesting.

Don't be so presumptuous, my friend....

I suggested a book club so that each and every member of this forum could participate in a friendly, informal, and relaxed discussion about whatever topics interest them. I did not suggest the idea to read books that I find interesting - I've done that alone for decades and don't need a club for that. I'm hoping to read books that I otherwise would never have thought of or heard of. In return, I like to share books that have been particularly valuable to me.

 

I, for one, have no interest in trying to restrict or control the suggestions of the members. We are called the Tao Bums forum but no restriction is made on the topics we discuss and I think the experience is that much greater for this (thanks Sean!).

 

I am not on a mission to make this into an educational program on Daoism. I don't have the expertise, time, or inclination for that.

 

I am not prepared to make this project any more complicated than it already is.

 

I am happy to continue on this course of asking for reading recommendations from all interested parties and selecting books in a relatively unbiased fashion from all selections. Perhaps there will be suggestions that are so far afield that they need to be discouraged but I am much more interested in going with than against the members' ideas. It appears there is some degree of interest in this vision. If our members would prefer a different approach now or at some point in the future, I'll gladly pass the torch. No harm done.

 

Your point about taking more time for each book discussion is a good one. Most book clubs read ~ one book per month. Perhaps we need more time - bimonthly or quarterly might make more sense. I will put together a poll regarding book frequency.

 

Thanks for your comments, Pietro. I do appreciate the input and hope to make this accessible and interesting for as many people as possible. I recognize that not everyone will be happy or agree with the approach or the specific book selections. There is no obligation to participate and no penalty to skipping a book. Given that we've never had a book club before, not participating in an individual discussion or the whole thing entirely will be just like nothing had changed on the forum....

 

Life is beautiful.

[Mal]

[voidisyinyang]

Wow -- interesting discussion on the elements as phases, etc. I always thought of earth as yin -- which would seem to belie Charle Luk's preference for "positive" vitality (yang).... but the best description I could find seems to validate Luk's position on "earth"... http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives20.../02twicken.html

 

Anyway to be honest I really thought of earth -- from reading Taoist Yoga -- as what I call "female formless awareness" -- it's the root of the heart-mind -- and that seems to be what the above link implies, calling earth the "transformer."

 

So I still just rely on the law of three -- yin, yang and female formless awareness.

 

But I'll take the "wood" and "fire" emphasis as a compliment! haha.

 

Besides "Taoist Yoga" is a PRACTICE book -- not something for conceptual discussion as much as experience. I got to the "immortal breathing" chapter -- chapter 10 -- and then it was all too powerful for modern society, but then I was also relying on qigong master Chunyi Lin's energy transmission, etc. During my intense training I just kept relying on Taoist Yoga which is a very specific training with a specific goal in mind and I agree that it definitely has a bias for yang -- electromagnetic or "positive" vitality -- relying on seclusion from worldly (female) life, etc. Not too practical for today's society. haha.

 

Still there's that wooden peg up the ass at the end of the book. Haven't stooped to that advanced technique yet....!

[三江源]

[Mal]

[WhiteTiger]

Mal, Lots of Eva Wong books. While I don't necessarily like it. I know thats just a little bitterness from the book Taoist yoga being switched to the Eva Wong written book.

 

But reading more then one of her books would give more insight into what she describes in words and how she translates things better. I think it would be a good foundation. I personally disagree with some approaches of different Taoist sects. I think reading the book Holding Yin, Embracing Yang: Three Taoist Classics on Meditation, Breath Regulation, Sexual Yoga, and The circulation of Internal Energy I personally wouldn't be my top choice (even though it has a interesting introduction of different schools of taoism)

 

Nourishing the Essence of Life: The Inner, Outer, and Secret Teachings of Taoism would be something i would personally like but i have a feeling it will be a tad bit to begginner for me and boring but still will read it in hopes it will still have some good knowledge here and there, even if not maybe i will learn how to put things i understand into better words. I find reading often times puts into words i already know but can't explain and explains it so i can then explain it to others instead of shut my mouth. Specially times in person to person talks to people that disagree with me I have to shut my mouth no matter how much i would like them to learn from they're errors of thinking. The only way i would be able to explain my understanding is the philosophical theory of something which often times makes me look like one of two things. 1. I don't know what I'm talking about. 2. Its really hard to understand what i'm saying (few end up trying to figure it out, specially if one disagrees with me)

[Mal]

But reading more then one of her books would give more insight into what she describes in words and how she translates things better.

 

That is my plan. But I'm having trouble deciding which ones

 

Holding Yin, Embracing Yang and Nourishing the Essence of Life: The Inner, Outer, and Secret seem to be talking about similar texts, but not enough reviews on Amazon for me to actually tell and the previews are not really helping.

 

After reading the preview for Harmonizing Yin and Yang it look the most accessible of the 3, perhaps.

 

I too have trouble trying to understand and explain this stuff, debates will be fun Not so much looking for the next book suggestion. (need to make my order up to $50 for free shiping)

 

But if someone has read these books and can give me a pointer that would be cool. Perhaps I should toss this into the main section.

[Pietro]

Hi Mal,

 

I would strongly suggest that you buy

 

The Taoist Experience: An Anthology (S U N Y Series in Chinese Philosophy and Culture) by Livia Kohn (Paperback - Nov 1993)

 

as a second book. It is a very cool compendium of small taoist texts, from the whole historical period. At the end of each chapter Eva suggests some extra reading. Practically in all those readings there is at least one or two that has just been taken from the Taoist Experience. I was in fact going to suggest it as a side text to keep while we are reading the history of Taoism.

 

Similarly another good one is:

Vitality, Energy, Spirit: A Taoist Sourcebook (Shambhala Dragon Editions) by Thomas Cleary (Paperback - Jul 30, 1991)

 

Cleary has often been criticised for not being really "taoist" in his choise of texts, and in his translations. But this anthology is really good.

 

So, those are my "first" suggestions. Mostly because those suggestions contain material that will always be useful as you are trying to get a rounder understanding of taoism. All the others really depend if you want to go deeper into this or that aspect of taoism, and I honestly don't know enough of what you would want, so I don't want to suggest you to buy books that then you might read a bit and then find uninteresting.

 

 

Pietro