Is non-duality actually a fundamental truth, or just another philosophy?

[Apech]

7 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

This one - 'the emotionally charged records one carries like baggage'. If everything is illusion, wouldn't it follow logically that karma is an illusion? 

 

 

They are imprints of activity/experience which carry an emotional charge - and therefore operate in your being according to triggers and so on which resonate with them.  But if you examine what they actually are you can see they depend on causes themselves and are not independent - so it is possible in various ways to run down the energy stored in them so they dissolve so to speak - when this happens you see them more as 'effects' (as in appearances) for which you might use the term illusory.  For instance if you had a phobia about spiders but made yourself familiar with spiders over a period of time - after a while you might ask where did the fear go and was it real in the first place.

 

 

[Limahong]

12 minutes ago, Bindi said:

If everything is illusion, wouldn't it follow logically that karma is an illusion? 

 

Like the square wheeled vehicle - truthfully, philosophically and logically?

[Bindi]

4 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

They are imprints of activity/experience which carry an emotional charge - and therefore operate in your being according to triggers and so on which resonate with them.  But if you examine what they actually are you can see they depend on causes themselves and are not independent - so it is possible in various ways to run down the energy stored in them so they dissolve so to speak - when this happens you see them more as 'effects' (as in appearances) for which you might use the term illusory.  For instance if you had a phobia about spiders but made yourself familiar with spiders over a period of time - after a while you might ask where did the fear go and was it real in the first place.

 

 

 

If all karma was actually dissolved, I would expect even the illusory effects to disappear. If karmic appearances persist in a non-dual experience, then they could be dismissed intellectually as illusory, but in reality karma would have not been fully resolved. 

[Apech]

1 minute ago, Bindi said:

 

If all karma was actually dissolved, I would expect even the illusory effects to disappear. If karmic appearances persist in a non-dual experience, then they could be dismissed intellectually as illusory, but in reality karma would have not been fully resolved. 

 

Well I was thinking about the activity which ripples through consciousness eternally - and it could be argued that this is also in a sense karmic.  If you think of wave like motion it is alternate expansion contraction etc. if you see what i mean.

[Bindi]

9 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Well I was thinking about the activity which ripples through consciousness eternally - and it could be argued that this is also in a sense karmic.  If you think of wave like motion it is alternate expansion contraction etc. if you see what i mean.

 

Some activity might ripple through consciousness eternally, but I don't grasp how that activity need be karmic if all karmic accretions were previously extinguished, as well as the unconscious basis for accruing further karma. But then again I have a fairly simple understanding of karma. 

[dwai]

32 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

If all karma was actually dissolved, I would expect even the illusory effects to disappear. If karmic appearances persist in a non-dual experience, then they could be dismissed intellectually as illusory, but in reality karma would have not been fully resolved. 

Think about it this way. If something is not even real in the first place, what good does it do to talk about whether it disappears or not?

 

For instance, we all know that mirages are unreal. However, knowing a mirage is a mirage doesn't make the mirage disappear. What is dispelled is the misunderstanding in our minds that it is a mirage, so we don't running into the desert to quench our thirst thinking there is water there...

 

[Limahong]

7 minutes ago, Apech said:

Well I was thinking about the activity which ripples through consciousness eternally - and it could be argued that this is also in a sense karmic.  If you think of wave like motion it is alternate expansion contraction etc. if you see what i mean.

 

Hi Apech,

 

Is the square wheeled vehicle karmic - it moves in a "wave like motion"?

It has "alternate expansion contraction etc. if you see what i mean".

 

- Anand

[voidisyinyang]

25 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Some activity might ripple through consciousness eternally, but I don't grasp how that activity need be karmic if all karmic accretions were previously extinguished, as well as the unconscious basis for accruing further karma. But then again I have a fairly simple understanding of karma. 

The consciousness is still a "skanda" - it is not formless awareness. Think of formless awareness as a black hole - it stores consciousness as subconscious ignorance. But this includes the FUTURE and the PAST - the whole 4D universe exists in a 5D black hole.  So the only way to "undo" consciousness is to go into the black hole and reverse the storage.

Think of it like processing a photograph in a dark room. With our eyes open - then we are disconnected from formless awareness - and so our spirit takes on karma - as a linear time entropy. Our subconscious stores up karmic blockages. With meditation we go into the "dark room" and we "process" the photograph - using emotions as the electrochemical energy - to then "see" what had been subconsciously stored. We can then "delete" the negatives - to reverse that karmic energy.

So full lotus meditation "burns karma" to quote Sri Yogananda.

So then for a person who has achieved Eternal Liberation - their mind, even with the eyes open, with each breath, goes into the Yuan Qi as formless awareness - beyond the 4D spacetime Universe - into the 5D blackhole.  So we ignorant people see their body and listen to their mind - and we see karma accumulating. What we are "seeing" is actually a projection of our own subconscious blockages that the Guru's body then "soaks" up - by being in his/her presence. So our deluded minds THINK that karma exists but the person in the 5D black hole of eternal liberation knows that this karma, just as with the astral realms, are subconscious projections of the Ego - be it a spiritual ego or just a conceptual ego.

So formless awareness is completely impersonal and yet it is personal to the extent that it relies on the person's body, going beyond death, with each thought and breath.

And so as for the Universe as a whole - the same thing - the "light" can be reversed back into the black hole - as a white hole - and "light" on its own will then "clear" or "delete" any entropic energy "blockages" - since light has no rest mass and so experiences no space nor any time - at the speed of light. But light DOES have "relativistic mass" which is this black hole energy - or positive pressure called "negentropy" - that's the secret of the Yuan Qi.

So a qigong master can go into the past and clear out the karmic blockages in an area - that exist as "ghost pollution" - as strong emotional imprints that are yin shen holographic blockages. And with our eyes open we also are constantly collecting electrochemical yin qi "blockages" at the speed of light - but then meditation, using the Shen, turned around, can reverse these blockages - and clear out the yin qi emotional "imprints."

So then what is going on is a literal spacetime vortex - a reversal of the Emptiness itself - and that is our karmic consciousness is cleared out.

And again this includes the FUTURE as well - so with meditation you will tap into strong emotional imprints that will occur in the future, and so you can "clear out" the emotional blockage before it occurs. I call this "Glitches in the Matrix." a good book on this is "Transcendent Dreaming" by Dr. Christina Donnell (T'ai Chi practitioner and shamanic meditation teacher).

http://www.christinadonnell.com/index.php?product_id=17&page=shop.product_details&category_id=6&flypage=flypage.tpl&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=10

[Bindi]

5 minutes ago, dwai said:

Think about it this way. If something is not even real in the first place, what good does it do to talk about whether it disappears or not?

 

For instance, we all know that mirages are unreal. However, knowing a mirage is a mirage doesn't make the mirage disappear. What is dispelled is the misunderstanding in our minds that it is a mirage, so we don't running into the desert to quench our thirst thinking there is water there...

 

 

Your perspective makes sense as long as karma was illusory in the first place. 

[Limahong]

30 minutes ago, dwai said:

If something is not even real in the first place, what good does it do to talk about whether it disappears or not?

 

How about the Tao?

[dwai]

31 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

How about the Tao?

 

[dwai]

33 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Your perspective makes sense as long as karma was illusory in the first place. 

 Only way to find out if its real or false is to awaken.

[wandelaar]

It can be done:

 

So it all depends on circumstances what does or does not work.

Edited August 19, 2018 by wandelaar

[voidisyinyang]

The whole "squared circle" analog is old-fashioned.

Science has now confirmed that in fact "everything" is "happening" at the SAME TIME - the 5th dimension contains the future and the past.

This is what nonwestern meditation teaches as well.

Co-dependent arising or karmic interdependence or "bidirectional intention" or the T'ai Chi=Wuji.

So it is a "process" of continual transformation but the "process" itself does not change - and everything is happening at the speed of light.

Mahayana Buddhism calls it "alaya consciousness" or the Tathagata Storehouse or "receptacle consciousness"

So it is a described as a mirror that is "non-revolving" and "indefinite."

 

So the paradox is how can something that is "Non-revolving" also be in constant transformation at the speed of light?

The answer is light by itself does not experience space nor time - and so "empty" itself by turning itself around. Since there is no "zero" mass of light - then by turning the light around, the "relativistic mass" is reversed. This "relativistic mass" is the noncommutative phase as the 5th dimension.

So as the 5th dimension - it means there are Worm Holes that connect the future with the Past - called Einstein-rosen wormholes - and these wormholes are superluminal - faster than the speed of light - and so "nonlocal" or entanglement as information consciousness, that is also a formative causal energy. Yuan qi. Science calls this ER=EPR.

So we can not "envision" it spatially since we can not "pin it down" due to time-frequency uncertainty. This means that the light to "measure" it changes what is being measured - since turning the light around then changes the relativistic mass of the light.

So this process is going on all the time in the 5th dimension  and it is "beyond" time as well since the future then "guides" the past.

So we can not see it but ironically we can "listen" to it - since our hearing is "faster" than a visual measurement aka time-frequency uncertainty.

 

 

 

[3bob]

3 hours ago, Marblehead said:

And one about marbles and how they roll.

 

 

one should always have some steelies to go with the marbles

[voidisyinyang]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

Your perspective makes sense as long as karma was illusory in the first place. 

Quote

The illusory body is inherently present in the seeds of the alaya, and this life form arises naturally in cultivation since you have not yet finished with the skanda of volition.

Bill Bodri (and Master Nan, Huai-chin)

[3bob]

karma will prove itself real enough for the evolving soul, so now we can tinker around with evolving soul...

[Lost in Translation]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

For instance, we all know that mirages are unreal. However, knowing a mirage is a mirage doesn't make the mirage disappear. What is dispelled is the misunderstanding in our minds that it is a mirage, so we don't running into the desert to quench our thirst thinking there is water there...

 

I like to watch movies on my PC. Characters race across the screen. There are car chases, epic battles, love and loss! The sound of music, the emotion in the voices make me weep in joy. I know it's all just pixels on a screen and vibrations coursing through a membrane, but I love it just the same.

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, Lost in Translation said:

... vibrations coursing through a membrane...

 

Sounds suggestively inviting...

 

Anything close to these...?

     

 

          

 

 

 

 

        

 

 

- Anand

Edited August 19, 2018 by Limahong

[Wu Ming Jen]

Karma wash

 

 

[Apech]

7 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Some activity might ripple through consciousness eternally, but I don't grasp how that activity need be karmic if all karmic accretions were previously extinguished, as well as the unconscious basis for accruing further karma. But then again I have a fairly simple understanding of karma. 

 

 

Karma means 'action' - when people use the word to mean accumulated baggage they really mean 'results of karma'.  Action has results, you push something it moves and so on.  Hence ripples in consciousness could be said to be karmic.

 

When you act or experience something it leaves an imprint in what is called the alaya-vijnana which translates as 'storehouse consciousness' or 'possession consciousness' (the is Buddhist terminology from Yogacara).  What this is referring to is our consciousness as a perfect recording material.  The imprints act like seeds in the soil.  When the right conditions exist then they will grow a bear fruit.  So there can be a delay of an indefinite amount of time before this happens.  So karma is not immediate.

 

The cumulative effects of stored experience can be overwhelming, especially if involving violence and other high energy and unassimilable material.  But the dual approach of non-identification (that is coming to a direct understanding of the status of this content and the fact that it isn't 'you') and careful and patient probing of thoughts, memories and records which cause pain and trauma to gently release the energy locked up in them - will in time allow assimilation.  When I said the karma dissolves, I think technically this is only half true.  What dissolves is the compacted energy/form of the karma as an active seed.  If you dissolve karma the energy is discharged and becomes available for new free expression, while the form is assimilated but available as wisdom - wisdom from experience.

[Apech]

7 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Apech,

 

Is the square wheeled vehicle karmic - it moves in a "wave like motion"?

It has "alternate expansion contraction etc. if you see what i mean".

 

- Anand

 

yes

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

yes

 

Thank you.

Now I am more enlightened - physically.

I am beginning to see what you mean.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Limahong

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

Karma means 'action' - when people use the word to mean accumulated baggage they really mean 'results of karma'.  Action has results, you push something it moves and so on.  Hence ripples in consciousness could be said to be karmic.

 

When you act or experience something it leaves an imprint in what is called the alaya-vijnana which translates as 'storehouse consciousness' or 'possession consciousness' (the is Buddhist terminology from Yogacara).  What this is referring to is our consciousness as a perfect recording material.  The imprints act like seeds in the soil.  When the right conditions exist then they will grow a bear fruit.  So there can be a delay of an indefinite amount of time before this happens.  So karma is not immediate.

 

The cumulative effects of stored experience can be overwhelming, especially if involving violence and other high energy and unassimilable material.  But the dual approach of non-identification (that is coming to a direct understanding of the status of this content and the fact that it isn't 'you') and careful and patient probing of thoughts, memories and records which cause pain and trauma to gently release the energy locked up in them - will in time allow assimilation.  When I said the karma dissolves, I think technically this is only half true.  What dissolves is the compacted energy/form of the karma as an active seed.  If you dissolve karma the energy is discharged and becomes available for new free expression, while the form is assimilated but available as wisdom - wisdom from experience.

 

Very well said. Thank you.

[Bindi]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

Karma means 'action' - when people use the word to mean accumulated baggage they really mean 'results of karma'.  Action has results, you push something it moves and so on.  Hence ripples in consciousness could be said to be karmic.

 

When you act or experience something it leaves an imprint in what is called the alaya-vijnana which translates as 'storehouse consciousness' or 'possession consciousness' (the is Buddhist terminology from Yogacara).  What this is referring to is our consciousness as a perfect recording material.  The imprints act like seeds in the soil.  When the right conditions exist then they will grow a bear fruit.  So there can be a delay of an indefinite amount of time before this happens.  So karma is not immediate.

 

The cumulative effects of stored experience can be overwhelming, especially if involving violence and other high energy and unassimilable material.  But the dual approach of non-identification (that is coming to a direct understanding of the status of this content and the fact that it isn't 'you') and careful and patient probing of thoughts, memories and records which cause pain and trauma to gently release the energy locked up in them - will in time allow assimilation.  When I said the karma dissolves, I think technically this is only half true.  What dissolves is the compacted energy/form of the karma as an active seed.  If you dissolve karma the energy is discharged and becomes available for new free expression, while the form is assimilated but available as wisdom - wisdom from experience.

 

I followed a different method to your dual approach, which goes quite a long way towards explaining my fundamentally different understanding. Where you use non-identification, I used the opposite, absolute emotional identification to process previously unfelt material, and where you probe I simply followed what dreams presented to be probed, in the assumption that what they chose to focus on at any particular time was intrinsically most appropriate. 

 

I wonder if non-identification has become the preferred method across diverse philosophies, a method I was not exposed to in my formative years, leaving me free to develop my own approach which, incidentally, I have found has worked well for me. 

 

Regarding karma, yes I must be referring to the 'results of karma', but calling it karma.