Is non-duality actually a fundamental truth, or just another philosophy?

[Marblehead]

8 hours ago, 3bob said:

 

hmm, no need  for that, roll the dice or marbles as you feel prompted to do so.

Thanks.  I will speak if I have anything to add to the intended discussion of the thread.  I'll do my best to not go off topic.

 

[Bindi]

14 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

Could you give me a detailed explanation of the terms 'youwei' and 'wuwei'.?

 

"One of the most important characteristics of Dao ("the Way") in Lao Zi's thought is that of "inaction" (wuwei), or, as it is put, "doing nothing, and therefore doing or being capable of doing, everything" (wuwei er wu buwei). Lao Zi said: "The Way is constant; doing nothing and therefore there is nothing that it does not do or that it is not capable of doing; if only those who of noble birth and rule as monarchs can keep this principle, all things shall evolve and change of their own in the proper place" (See Lao Zi, chapter 37). Since Lao Zi advocated using Dao (the Way) to rule, or govern "all under heaven" (tianxia), "inaction" (wuwei) then becomes the general principle behind his political philosophy. In Lao Zi's perspective, if a person were to do things according to his principle of "wuwei," that person will be able to become "wu buwei" (there is nothing that the person cannot do), or in other words, achieve complete success."

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.2753/CSP1097-146726010213?journalCode=mcsp19

 

"Liu Yiming often mentions "superior virtue" (shangde) and "inferior virtue" (xiade) in his writings. These two terms are related to "non-doing" (wuwei) and "doing" (youwei) according to the Daode jing. Superior virtue is the way of "non-doing": one immediately realizes the original "celestial reality" (tianzhen), which is never affected by the change and impermanence that dominate within the cosmos. Inferior virtue, instead, is the way of "doing" the Neidan practice in order to "return to the Dao." Liu Yiming states, however, that the latter way, when it comes to achievement, "leads to the same goal as superior virtue" (Commentary to Cantong qi)." http://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/jindan_intro_3.html

 

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by Bindi

[3bob]

5 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I'm thinking of the testimonies in Acts as the only proof available to us of the reality of an immortal spirit, though of course this is tenuous proof at best. Still it is the best example available to us of the possibility of an immortal spirit that I know of. 

 

Have you read "Autobiography of a Yogi"? there is all sorts of  stuff in it about Jesus and immortals doing what immortals may do.

 

Quote

 

Vive la dualité  

 

whatever turns one's crank 

 

Quote

 

 

If he was the only one to actually achieve an immortal spirit, that would set him apart from the rest maybe? 

 

I'd say Jesus said no to that,  "for ye shall do what I have done and greater" , I'm very rusty on my Bible quotes but that was the drift I remember...  

 

another major and very important difference between various systems is that some founders of same never have a succession  while some do.  (passing on the full lineage authority to a new lineage holder)  Thus some systems are  left with students or maybe advanced devotees but not a new and fully empowered lineage holder to carry on as before, at least in this world!  And to me that is also very problematic or making problems more possible compared to systems that do have a fully empowered lineage holder in this world where the buck stops, so to speak.

Edited August 22, 2018 by 3bob

[Bindi]

3 minutes ago, 3bob said:

 

Have you read "Autobiography of a Yogi"? there is all sorts of  stuff in it about Jesus and immortals doing what immortals may do.

 

 

whatever turns one's crank 

 

 

I'd say Jesus said no to that,  "for ye shall do what I have done and greater" , I'm very rusty on my Bible quotes but that was the drift I remember...  

 

"Ye shall do what I have done," if you accept going via Jesus. Before him (in Christian terms) it was not possible, only after. And after there is no record of anyone doing anything like he is recorded as doing. The one thing that seems to be needed is faith the size of a mustard seed, and then you can do these things. This seems to be the stumbling block to anyone following in his footsteps, though my favourite example, St Seraphim, seems to have gotten close - he could heal miraculously, and "knew what was in the hearts of men before they spoke." No other sorts of miracles though, and no moving mountains. 

 

3 minutes ago, 3bob said:

another major and very important difference between various systems is that some founders of same never have a succession  while some do.  (passing on the full lineage authority to a new lineage holder)  Thus some systems are  left with students or maybe advanced devotees but not a new and fully empowered lineage holder to carry on as before, at least in this world!  And to me that is also very problematic or making problems more possible compared to systems that do have a fully empowered lineage holder in this world where the buck stops, so to speak.

 

[Jeff]

11 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

All the systems which I am aware of, all the good ones anyway say that the absolute is ineffable, mysterious and beyond words/concepts.  What they try to do though is provide a framework for working towards realisation of ... whatever you want call it.  I realise that doesn't exactly address your point but it is a starting point.  In the same way Jesus says you only come to the Father through me - meaning the Logos provides the way to the Absolute.  Beyond that the teachings are culturally embedded to be helpful to people who are karmically linked to a particular way of seeing things - hence the variety of schools/sects/systems.

 

They do borrow heavily from each other - particularly Yoga/Tantra from Daoist Internal Alchemy - where they take some principles from the Daoist approach and put it in the context of Indian Sramana and Brahmanical systems.  It is very hard to untangle how what we have available today has come to be as it is.

 

 

 

Rather than actually borrow from each other, I think it is more about them all starting from noticing the same underlying “energy” body and then how it connects more broadly into the physical world and beyond. The difference in the broader view (or framework understanding) naturally leads to different outcomes. 

[3bob]

22 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

"Ye shall do what I have done," if you accept going via Jesus. Before him (in Christian terms) it was not possible, only after. And after there is no record of anyone doing anything like he is recorded as doing. The one thing that seems to be needed is faith the size of a mustard seed, and then you can do these things. This seems to be the stumbling block to anyone following in his footsteps, though my favourite example, St Seraphim, seems to have gotten close - he could heal miraculously, and "knew what was in the hearts of men before they spoke." No other sorts of miracles though, and no moving mountains. 

 

 

 

As I said or meant before there are a multitude of serious problems if one is trying to integrate/correlate across Christian or Abrahamic precepts and most "eastern" ones...I'd say it can not be done on the level of written teachings/texts and not really  on most any level.  Take away all manifested differences then there are no problems with any of it, but that will never happen in the manifested worlds. (with manifested worlds including worlds of any subtle form beyond just earthly worlds.    

Edited August 22, 2018 by 3bob

[Jeff]

16 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

"Ye shall do what I have done," if you accept going via Jesus. Before him (in Christian terms) it was not possible, only after. And after there is no record of anyone doing anything like he is recorded as doing. The one thing that seems to be needed is faith the size of a mustard seed, and then you can do these things. This seems to be the stumbling block to anyone following in his footsteps, though my favourite example, St Seraphim, seems to have gotten close - he could heal miraculously, and "knew what was in the hearts of men before they spoke." No other sorts of miracles though, and no moving mountains. 

 

 

 

I think it is important to realize that the goal of Jesus was not to do miracles (or show it was possible), but to lead and teach people to be “one with God” (as John says, show people how to be a son of God). On that point, many others have come along and did what he did. What one would call healing is about the physical body, and as Jesus said, focusing on that leads to death and not the life everlasting.

[Apech]

18 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Rather than actually borrow from each other, I think it is more about them all starting from noticing the same underlying “energy” body and then how it connects more broadly into the physical world and beyond. The difference in the broader view (or framework understanding) naturally leads to different outcomes. 

 

 

From Samuel - Origins of Yoga and Tantra

Quote

 

THE ORIGINS OF THE SEXUAL AND ALCHEMICAL PRACTICES 

 

Where though did this new body of complexes come from? How did it 

originate? Here we can examine individual elements of the complex, and 

we can also look at the complex as a whole. If we take the second option, 

the similarities with Chinese alchemical practices and technologies of the 

self are striking and have long been observed (Filliozat 1969; White 1996: 

53—4, 61—5) . These Chinese practices, closely associated with Daoism, have 

been described in detail by a number of scholars (for recent accounts see 

Schipper 1994; L. Kohn 2006a), and there is little doubt that they predate 

the Indie versions by several centuries. Early versions of these practices are 

found in the Mawangdui manuscripts, recovered from a burial dated to 

168 BCE (D. Harper 1987, 1997). They include sexual practices based on 

the internal movement of subtle’ bodily substances {qt), are aimed at long 

life, health and immortality, and are again linked to alchemical practices 

associated with mercury-based elixirs (e.g. Schipper 1994: 174— 81). 10 

 

The similarities here are quite close; thus one can parallel the Daoist prac- 

tise of living without grains’ ( bigu ), involving extended fasts during which 

the practitioner eats only specially-prepared alchemical compounds (Shawn 

2006, jackowitz 2006, Schipper 1996; 167-70), with similar rasdyana prac- 

tices, still carried out in the Tibetan tradition ( bead len). u One might also point to the similarity between the Chinese meditational practice of the 

‘microcosmic orbit’, in which qi is directed along a circuit which moves 

up the spine from the perineum and returns down the front of the body 

and the Indian kriya practices which utilise the same circuit. In both cases, 

a crucial link Is made by contact between the tongue and the back of the 

upper palate (known as khecari mudra in Sanskrit). 12 In both cases, Chinese 

and Indian, physical exercises are also used to bring the body as a whole 

into a suitable condition to perform the internal practices. These are the 

exercises that later become known in various versions as daoyin or qigong in 

the Chinese context, as hatha yoga in the Saiva context, and as ’phrul ’khor 

In the context of the Tibetan Vajrayana. 13 

 

At the same time, there is no doubt that the Indian version of these 

practices is as thoroughly Indian in its vocabulary and conceptual structure 

as the Chinese version is Chinese.

 

 

 

[Bindi]

2 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

I think it is important to realize that the goal of Jesus was not to do miracles (or show it was possible), but to lead and teach people to be “one with God” (as John says, show people how to be a son of God). On that point, many others have come along and did what he did. What one would call healing is about the physical body, and as Jesus said, focusing on that leads to death and not the life everlasting.

 

I don't think Jesus would have thought healing the physical body was focusing on that which leads to death, if he did think that he never would have healed anyone physically, nor would he have brought someone who had died back to life, surely following your logic he would have rather rejoiced at the man's death. I think a point of difference would be whether you have to die to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, or whether you can achieve it while alive. If you can achieve it while alive, there would be no reason to exclude a a compassionate focus on the body as well as the spirit. 

 

“When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick” (Matthew 14:14).

 

Perhaps performing non-healing miracles was basically to engender faith in his followers, “Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves” (John 14:11), but healing seemed to have been for compassionate reasons. 

 

When he said "you too will do these things" - meaning move mountains, and throw mulberry trees into the ocean, to me he wasn't talking about demonstrating being one with God, but he was talking about demonstrating power, including the power to perform mind-boggling miracles. This hasn't been demonstrated since Jesus as far as I know. 

[Marblehead]

17 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I think a point of difference would be whether you have to die to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, or whether you can achieve it while alive. If you can achieve it while alive, there would be no reason to exclude a a compassionate focus on the body as well as the spirit. 

Excellent point.  I will leave that for the Christians to discuss though.

 

[Apech]

Just now, Marblehead said:

Excellent point.  I will leave that for the Christians to discuss though.

 

 

Jesus of Daobums    -    "Turning the waffle into whine" 

[Jeff]

30 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

From Samuel - Origins of Yoga and Tantra

 

 

 

Yes, similar understandings, particularly at the beginning levels of the framework/tradition. Also, interesting about traditions that use alchemical compounds (drugs), or not. I think this is one of the major departures with the teachings of Jesus, and all of his reminding his followers of the body being a temple.

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

I think this is one of the major departures with the teachings of Jesus, and all of his reminding his followers of the body being a temple.

Another excellent point.  As far as I know Jesus didn't use drugs in order to attain his spiritual essence.

 

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Yes, similar understandings, particularly at the beginning levels of the framework/tradition. Also, interesting about traditions that use alchemical compounds (drugs), or not. I think this is one of the major departures with the teachings of Jesus, and all of his reminding his followers of the body being a temple.

 

 

the use of alchemical agents is mostly Weidan and predate Nei dan.

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Another excellent point.  As far as I know Jesus didn't use drugs in order to attain his spiritual essence.

 

 

Yes, and this point highlights a very dramatic difference in understandings relative to what happens (and outcomes) at the higher levels of a tradition. 

[Jeff]

33 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

...

I think a point of difference would be whether you have to die to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, or whether you can achieve it while alive. If you can achieve it while alive, there would be no reason to exclude a a compassionate focus on the body as well as the spirit. 

...

 

 

The Kingdom of Heaven is not a death thing. It is about realizing that one is not limited or contained by the local body-mind. It is not a place you go...

 

Luke 17: 20-21

20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

 

[Bindi]

2 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

The Kingdom of Heaven is not a death thing. It is about realizing that one is not limited or contained by the local body-mind. It is not a place you go...

 

Luke 17: 20-21

20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

 

 

You said "What one would call healing is about the physical body, and as Jesus said, focusing on that leads to death and not the life everlasting." It seemed to me that you were saying the physical body is equated with death and is incompatible with the Kingdom of God which is equated with life everlasting. 

 

Can you explain why Jesus did so many healings, if he was so against the physical body? 

[rideforever]

Non-duality and Wuwei are things that enlightened beings talk about after they have finished their arduous path.

 

Here's a nice big coffee table book about mountain climbing. 
As you flick through the pictures whilst sipping a cappuccino ....

 

[Marblehead]

I've climbed all my mountains.  I have settled down with my cappuccino.  (I do miss that from when I was stationed in Italy.)

 

[Jeff]

14 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

You said "What one would call healing is about the physical body, and as Jesus said, focusing on that leads to death and not the life everlasting." It seemed to me that you were saying the physical body is equated with death and is incompatible with the Kingdom of God which is equated with life everlasting. 

 

Can you explain why Jesus did so many healings, if he was so against the physical body? 

 

I am not at all saying that Jesus was against the physical body. The physical body is part of the path, but focus on the physical body is a dead end in Jesus's teachings. As described in Romans...

 

Romans 8:6-14

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 

The whole point of Jesus's teachings (and becoming a son of God) is point out "ye are not in the flesh", but beyond that. Simply going around healing the flesh, simply reinforces the flesh point and is not the most effective method. That is why after his ascension, and his coming back to teach the apostles, they talk about having the power to use Jesus's name to "throw out demons" and stuff. It is about breaking down the "obstructions" that trap one to the local body mind. Clearing out those "demons" also, often leads to the body being healed, but that is a derivative result and not the goal itself.

[Bindi]

6 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

I am not at all saying that Jesus was against the physical body. The physical body is part of the path, but focus on the physical body is a dead end in Jesus's teachings. As described in Romans...

 

Romans 8:6-14

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 

The whole point of Jesus's teachings (and becoming a son of God) is point out "ye are not in the flesh", but beyond that. Simply going around healing the flesh, simply reinforces the flesh point and is not the most effective method. That is why after his ascension, and his coming back to teach the apostles, they talk about having the power to use Jesus's name to "throw out demons" and stuff. It is about breaking down the "obstructions" that trap one to the local body mind. Clearing out those "demons" also, often leads to the body being healed, but that is a derivative result and not the goal itself.

 

“... and stuff” was the power to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease (Matthew 10:1) though. Healing of the body is a focal point in the NT, for both Jesus and the apostles, as well as being a power promised to believers, it can’t be summarily dismissed. 

 

 

[Apech]

This thread has gone all Jesusy.  Shame.

[Wu Ming Jen]

One must know the golden elixir’s transformations, perhaps true, perhaps illusory. Always letting one’s heart-mind die, do not care about what you see and hear. Do not have thoughts of a person. 

 

The great earth, mountains and river are all familiar; everywhere is one’s home, fields and gardens. One is travelling, enjoying the sights, and sojourning anywhere. At the time of retrieving and entering stabilization after coming back, when the Yang Spirit also takes the material body, the body with form, as its bedchamber, room, and house, then you know there is a true ‘You’ inside this body, and that all the others are fake.  Let the resident return, let the infant return into the interior courtyard and the central palace

 

The devil of Hell is unable to rule over one’s death,
God is unable to govern one’s life,
vertically and horizontally, the self exist freely,
exiting and entering depends on oneself,
The difference creates sameness of devil and god throw them both away.

Be free and the binding rope was never tied.

 

[Jeff]

9 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

“... and stuff” was the power to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease (Matthew 10:1) though. Healing of the body is a focal point in the NT, for both Jesus and the apostles, as well as being a power promised to believers, it can’t be summarily dismissed. 

 

 

 

I am not at all dismissing that it is possible to heal the body, but the gospels are clear about moving beyond the earthly focus of the body...

 

2 Corinthians 5 King James Version (KJV)

5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.² For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:³ If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.⁴ For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.⁵ Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

⁶ Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:⁷ (For we walk by faith, not by sight:⁸ We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

[Cheshire Cat]

28 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

[...]

 

The whole point of Jesus's teachings (and becoming a son of God) is point out "ye are not in the flesh", but beyond that. Simply going around healing the flesh, simply reinforces the flesh point and is not the most effective method. That is why after his ascension, and his coming back to teach the apostles, they talk about having the power to use Jesus's name to "throw out demons" and stuff. It is about breaking down the "obstructions" that trap one to the local body mind. Clearing out those "demons" also, often leads to the body being healed, but that is a derivative result and not the goal itself.

 

Not to mention the resurrection of the deads...