Is non-duality actually a fundamental truth, or just another philosophy?

[Apech]

7 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

I don't want to go too far astray on the topic but maybe my personal point would be no other influences like Buddhism.  Just a Daoist practice.  And I often get in trouble in commenting on these issues as when I mention that I'm thinking  of the inner gods and spirit practices which folks will usually quickly point out that was not neidan.  That seems a convenient argument to simply solidify the later mix. 

 

500 AD was just a date I pulled out of a hat as a rough comment.  Curious that this text in question dates to 700. 

 

 

 

Are you of the opinion that Daoist schools like Complete Reality and the masters therein were contaminated/duped by Buddhist influence?  Do you think Ch'an and Zen Buddhists were duped by Daoist influence?  

[dawei]

12 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

Are you of the opinion that Daoist schools like Complete Reality and the masters therein were contaminated/duped by Buddhist influence?  Do you think Ch'an and Zen Buddhists were duped by Daoist influence?  

 

My original comment was 'modern alchemy' which should logically be contrasted with ancient...   

 

so I don't understand why the seemingly negative questions about 'authentic' and 'duped'...   I'm just talking a time shift or change.  I think the less mix the better.  I just find it interesting that neidan is always talked about with the Buddhist mix and there was 1000 years before it without it.   It seems to have moved things from inner spirits to more physical accomplishment of xing and ming.     Of course, that is just my opinion and not saying I'm 100%, but my point of view. 

[Apech]

1 minute ago, dawei said:

 

My original comment was 'modern alchemy' which should logically be contrasted with ancient...   

 

so I don't understand why the seemingly negative questions about 'authentic' and 'duped'...   I'm just talking a time shift or change.  I think the less mix the better.  I just find it interesting that neidan is always talked about with the Buddhist mix and there was 1000 years before it without it.   It seems to have moved things from inner spirits to more physical accomplishment of xing and ming.     Of course, that is just my opinion and not saying I'm 100%, but my point of view. 

 

 

OK I phrased my question badly, I wasn't being critical just trying to understand your point of view.  You say yourself 'less mix the better' and actually I think it is our all to simplistic notions of how these things happen which leads to this.  For instance the Buddhism which came to China was not unmixed in some sense itself - and the Daoism it encountered was not unaffected by for instance Confucianism (and other Chinese schools of thought).  Indeed it is possible, even likely, that some of Buddhism which entered China was already affected by Daoism.  So I would see more a pattern of changing thought and experience extending back maybe even 200,000 years (first modern humans - or even before if you count in Neanderthals and Denisovians) which weaves its way through history.  People of different generations and cultures try to express and 'fix' these ideas/insights/realisations in cultural forms - but these have a limited shelf-life and need periodically to be reformed and revived to make sure they have effect.

 

I would question the idea of original 'pure' anything in the historical period (and indeed before).

 

I think the move from seeing things as operating by way of spiritual influences, noetic powers and so forth, which was certainly the view of the Bronze age diviners and so forth which pre-date even the Yijing, to it being more about internal processes (and these processes being more neutral in the sense of energy not spirits) is a phase shift in human thought brought about the conditions in which they lived, the stage of human evolution and indeed practical issues of what seemed to work most effectively.

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

 Some history from my linage in brief.

 

The history of Nei Dan practice travels back to Lao Zi who recorded all theory and methods of cultivation in the sacred book Dao De Jing.  Lu Dong Bing, one of the famous eight immortals passed the teaching of internal alchemy to Wang Chong Yang in the North of China and Zhang Bo Duan in the South of China. They both created Nei Dan Schools. Both schools focus on internal cultivation, merge Fire and Water, Lead and mercury, Dragon and Tiger combining the three treasures (jing, qi, shen) into the Dan Tian (cauldron) which balances and harmonizes Xing (essential nature) and Ming (eternal life).  The cultivator of nei dan will sit still, going through nine levels of stillness to obtain the Dao. The objective of cultivation is to transform yourself from an ordinary human into an extraordinary human, and further transform into Xian or Immortal. Returning home to immortality is the final goal for a Daoist priest.

 

Master Qiu, Chu Ji was among seven disciples of Wang Chong Yang (of the Northern School). He became most popular and famous in history by creating the Long Men School and passing down his nei dan lineage, which is still in practice today.  Master Li Cheng Yu of Wu Dang Long Men School was a 24th generation Daoist priest, who accomplished Immortality in 2001. She passed down the nei dan to Wu Dang Long Men School 25th generation Daoist priest Yun Xiang Tseng (Chen).

 

Back to topic non duality is not a teaching but an observation of nature. I do not know about Buddhist teaching directly but non duality seems to be a thing from those teachings?

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

any kind of practice in which subtle energy body work was included could fit the definition even if there was not a separate tradition, sect or school which was devoted exclusively to this practice.  So I don't agree that you can necessarily leave out shamanism from my definition.

shamans do not do any subtle energy.

instead they do only deities and drugs. both explicitly excluded in your def)

[dwai]

 

37 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

 

Back to topic non duality is not a teaching but an observation of nature. I do not know about Buddhist teaching directly but non duality seems to be a thing from those teachings?

Non duality is NOT a thing. It is not something we can use our sense organs to experience as an object. It is a shift in awareness. From subject-object duality to the realization that subject and object are not essentially separate. It is a position taught in Buddhism, and in the hindu traditions in  Advaita Vedanta, Kashmir Shaivism. 

 

[Apech]

8 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

shamans do not do any subtle energy.

instead they do only deities and drugs. both explicitly excluded in your def)

 

and trance states by music, dancing and so on.

 

some are psychopomps

 

psychopomp is one of my favourite words (ever).

Edited August 23, 2018 by Apech

[Jeff]

18 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

Non duality is NOT a thing. It is not something we can use our sense organs to experience as an object. It is a shift in awareness. From subject-object duality to the realization that subject and object are not essentially separate. It is a position taught in Buddhism, and in the hindu traditions in  Advaita Vedanta, Kashmir Shaivism. 

 

 

In some traditions, non-duality instead simply means that there is no good or bad.  Things just are, and all such judgements are subjective.

[dwai]

Just now, Jeff said:

 

In some traditions, non-duality instead simply means that there is no good or bad.  Things just are, and all such judgements are subjective.

That is also the outcome of having the realization that subject-object are not separate imho. Albeit, the degree and depth of the realization is also a big factor. 

[Jeff]

Just now, dwai said:

That is also the outcome of having the realization that subject-object are not separate imho. Albeit, the degree and depth of the realization is also a big factor. 

 

Agreed, but I see it as important distinction as for some non-duality implies some concept of "universal oneness", for other it does not.

[dwai]

Just now, Jeff said:

 

Agreed, but I see it as important distinction as for some non-duality implies some concept of "universal oneness", for other it does not.

To (inexactly) quote Nisargadatta Maharaj

 

Quote

Realizing I am nothing is wisdom, realizing I am everything is Love. Between these two, my life moves. 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

33 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

Non duality is NOT a thing. It is not something we can use our sense organs to experience as an object. It is a shift in awareness. From subject-object duality to the realization that subject and object are not essentially separate. It is a position taught in Buddhism, and in the hindu traditions in  Advaita Vedanta, Kashmir Shaivism. 

 

Thank you that is good to know.

[Taoist Texts]

4 hours ago, dawei said:

inner gods and spirit practices which folks will usually quickly point out that was not neidan. 

folks do say damnedest things)

[rideforever]

 

7 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Do something stupid that results in your leg getting broken.  Check to see if there is any pain.  If there is, do nothing else other than meditate.  Does the pain go away?  I promise that the pain will still be there as soon as you end your meditation and try to move your leg. 

 

I have done so.
In fact I was pretty ill, in hospital with stomach ulceration about 2 years ago.   Rushed out in the ambulance on Boxing Day.  Thought I was dying never had pain in the middle of my organs.   Terrible it was.

Also I have broken my leg and other bones too so I know all about it, and got run over once, close to death, in hospital for 6 weeks.

 

And yes the meditation makes the pain go away because it carries you to the inner plane beyond the body.

When you return your perspective on what is occurring is very different and you suffer much less.   If you can remain inside the inner plain then you don't suffer, that is salvation.

 

[dawei]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

I would question the idea of original 'pure' anything in the historical period (and indeed before).

 

I don't think I said pure...  

[dawei]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

shamans do not do any subtle energy.

instead they do only deities and drugs. both explicitly excluded in your def)

 

I disagree... ask Flowing Hands ....

[Bindi]

9 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Asked to explain his strengths, Mencius answers that he is good at "nourishing his 'flood-like qi (vital energy).' Mencius admits that this "qi" is very hard to describe:

"This qi is extremely big and extremely powerful. Nourish it with righteousness and protect it from harm, and it will fill Heaven and earth. It grows through the accumulation of righteousness and cannot be obtained by contrived actions. If one's actions are not satisfying to one's mind then it shrivels up."

The earliest mention of qi as a philosophical concept can be found in the Book of Changes, one of the oldest books in existence. It is a key concept in Chinese medicine as well as in Mencius' idea of fulfillment and happiness. Mencius makes it clear that this vital force is nourished through the steady accumulation of righteous acts. 

http://www.pursuit-of-happiness.org/history-of-happiness/mencius/

Mencius (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 - Mencius (fourth century BCE) was a Confucian philosopher

 

"Mencius makes it clear that this vital force is nourished through the steady accumulation of righteous acts."

 

I don't consider "righteous acts" to be a neidan method though. If it is it's one I've completely ignored.   

[KuroShiro]

13 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I don't consider "righteous acts" to be a neidan method though. If it is it's one I've completely ignored. 

 

You're not paying attention!

[dawei]

19 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

"Mencius makes it clear that this vital force is nourished through the steady accumulation of righteous acts."

 

I don't consider "righteous acts" to be a neidan method though. If it is it's one I've completely ignored.   

 

You may of changed righteousness to righteous acts... one can be a state of mind and the latter doing stuff.  Just saying. 

[Bindi]

1 minute ago, dawei said:

 

You may of changed righteousness to righteous acts... one can be a state of mind and the latter doing stuff.  Just saying. 

 

Look at the last line in TT's quote (below the box). My line is an exact quote. But nor does "righteousness" sound like an effective method to move energy through a subtle body. 

[dawei]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

Look at the last line in TT's quote (below the box). My line is an exact quote. But nor does "righteousness" sound like an effective method to move energy through a subtle body. 

 

ok, but below the box is an opinion but not of Mencius. 

[Bindi]

Quote

 

“The reaches of heaven and earth and yin and yang are vast, and ultimately everything in the universe can be classified into the polarity of yin and yang. “Yin and yang are not absolute, but their principle never changes. The law that governs does not falter, although everything around it changes according to the point of reference."

- The Yellow Emperor’s Classic of Medicine (the Neijing Suwen) ~240 B.C

 

 

Is this a philosophy that counters non-dualism ? The principle of Yin and Yang never changes, only the point of reference. 

 

Neidan attempts to actualise True Yin and True Yang, as far as this is possible within a human form, but beyond this, beyond what can be perceived by us, this principle still operates. If an immortal spirit is produced, it too must operate within the principles of Yin and Yang. Perhaps it is more Yin, and the consciousness beyond it more Yang, which in itself becomes the force that then continues to promote further 'spiritual' evolution. 

 

If this is true, and I think this is my position on the question of non-duality from my own experience and understanding of Yin and Yang, non-duality becomes a state that can be experienced for any given period of time, but this state must falter, because true non-duality cannot be experienced. Positing non-duality and striving to attain it becomes trying to stagnate, which is simpler than  suffering the machinations of dualistic evolution.  

 

 

[dawei]

2 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Is this a philosophy that counters non-dualism ? The principle of Yin and Yang never changes, only the point of reference. 

 

Neidan attempts to actualise True Yin and True Yang, as far as this is possible within a human form, but beyond this, beyond what can be perceived by us, this principle still operates. If an immortal spirit is produced, it too must operate within the principles of Yin and Yang. Perhaps it is more Yin, and the consciousness beyond it more Yang, which in itself becomes the force that then continues to promote further 'spiritual' evolution. 

 

If this is true, and I think this is my position on the question of non-duality from my own experience and understanding of Yin and Yang, non-duality becomes a state that can be experienced for any given period of time, but this state must falter, because true non-duality cannot be experienced. Positing non-duality and striving to attain it becomes trying to stagnate, which is simpler than  suffering the machinations of dualistic evolution.  

 

 

 

Not sure why this text is supposed to be viewed as a counter to non-duality... a counter to non-duality is DUALITY !  So, I guess it would be a counter !  LOL

 

We should be careful about trying to suggest texts were meant to suggest it was for or against something only we as asking.

 

 

[Bindi]

15 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

Not sure why this text is supposed to be viewed as a counter to non-duality... a counter to non-duality is DUALITY !  So, I guess it would be a counter !  LOL

 

We should be careful about trying to suggest texts were meant to suggest it was for or against something only we as asking.

 

 

 

It proposes a dualistic fundamental reality, which in a sense gave me the space to give my opinion on the duality/non-duality debate. 

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by Bindi

[Apech]

7 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Is this a philosophy that counters non-dualism ? The principle of Yin and Yang never changes, only the point of reference. 

 

Neidan attempts to actualise True Yin and True Yang, as far as this is possible within a human form, but beyond this, beyond what can be perceived by us, this principle still operates. If an immortal spirit is produced, it too must operate within the principles of Yin and Yang. Perhaps it is more Yin, and the consciousness beyond it more Yang, which in itself becomes the force that then continues to promote further 'spiritual' evolution. 

 

If this is true, and I think this is my position on the question of non-duality from my own experience and understanding of Yin and Yang, non-duality becomes a state that can be experienced for any given period of time, but this state must falter, because true non-duality cannot be experienced. Positing non-duality and striving to attain it becomes trying to stagnate, which is simpler than  suffering the machinations of dualistic evolution.  

 

 

 

The quote you give is an exposition of yin-yang which is itself a non-dual position.  If you look at the Yijing you can see that even the most complex situations and the specific moment in such situations can be expressed as 'layers' of yin-yang.  Just as with your computer everything it does can be reduced to a series of 0 and 1.  This is based on electronic switches which either allow a current to flow or don't, if there is a flow its a 1, if there isn't then its a 0.  So the 0 and the 1 are not things in themselves but can be universally applied to describe everything (that happens on your computer).  This universality of the application of yin-yang is not however a basic dualism - since as in the classic illustration of a hill with a sunny side and a shady side - if you bulldoze the hill these two qualities which define the spatial geometry of the hill disappear - as they are mutually dependent.  This is why it is saying that they are 'not absolute' - so it is not a dualism.

 

I think you may have a wrong understanding of what 'non-duality' is, as you call it a state that can be experienced for any given period of time.  If you think that is what it is - then I can see why trying to achieve it in your view would lead to stagnation - as any 'state' is as its name suggests static.  And the idea that it is temporary is also inherently self-limiting.  However non-duality is a liberation from these constraints (of space and time).  But then I have no idea why you have come to your conclusion, you don't tell us, so it is very difficult to tell why you are saying what you are saying.