Is non-duality actually a fundamental truth, or just another philosophy?

[3bob]

8 minutes ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

How about antinomic oneness of phenomenal extistence? That's pretty important to grasp triality!

 

if MH doesn't have to check his dictionary I do...although not his 

Edited August 27, 2018 by 3bob

[Spotless]

 

"Stillness" is often mis-interpreted:

 

It is not lack of movement - or quiet mind - 

 

It is non-inertia

 

When at rest not in the inertia of "at rest-ness" and when in action not in the inertia of "in action" - it is a non-identified state in a state of action or inaction. Action from stillness - whether it is inaction or action - is spontaneous and does not carry the momentum of position and identifications.

[Spotless]

2 hours ago, 3bob said:

 

a drop is finished when goes into the ocean,  btw. does the ocean rule itself yet it is not in need of rules

the singularity is both gone and not gone

[Marblehead]

4 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

How about antinomic oneness of phenomenal extistence? That's pretty important to grasp triality!

Well, that's three concepts I am lacking understanding now.  Keep going and we might hit that magic 10,000.

 

[3bob]

4 hours ago, Spotless said:

 

"Stillness" is often mis-interpreted:

 

It is not lack of movement - or quiet mind - 

 

It is non-inertia

 

When at rest not in the inertia of "at rest-ness" and when in action not in the inertia of "in action" - it is a non-identified state in a state of action or inaction. Action from stillness - whether it is inaction or action - is spontaneous and does not carry the momentum of position and identifications.

 

karma has mass and movement because of and related to said mass, sounds opposite of your stillness...

[Spotless]

5 hours ago, 3bob said:

 

karma has mass and movement because of and related to said mass, sounds opposite of your stillness...

 

Karma has no mass, it is not a thing, it is not gathered up nor spent, it has no movement. - essentially it does not exist except within non-existence.

 

 

 

 

[3bob]

48 minutes ago, Spotless said:

 

Karma has no mass, it is not a thing, it is not gathered up nor spent, it has no movement. - essentially it does not exist except within non-existence.

 

my experience says otherwise, granted it's result is not mass that can be weighed in any normal way but it does coat-up and move with one so to speak per earned results, thus it's like weight on soul...sometimes we can go all transcendent/cryptic/above it all mystic (until the cows come home)  but that is often like another form of vanity that doesn't help anyone much.  (except maybe conceptually)

Edited August 28, 2018 by 3bob

[Spotless]

8 hours ago, 3bob said:

 

my experience says otherwise, granted it's result is not mass that can be weighed in any normal way but it does coat-up and move with one so to speak per earned results, thus it's like weight on soul...sometimes we can go all transcendent/cryptic/above it all mystic (until the cows come home)  but that is often like another form of vanity that doesn't help anyone much.  (except maybe conceptually)

Karma is the habituations and tensions within which the monkey mind is entranced. It is the sum of grasping. It is the inertias of an un-Awakened state and the impelling of ten thousand finger prisons. It is the deep trenches of inculcation from indulgence and obscurance that favors the habituations and the deep DNA propensities.

[3bob]

27 minutes ago, Spotless said:

Karma is the habituations and tensions within which the monkey mind is entranced. It is the sum of grasping. It is the inertias of an un-Awakened state and the impelling of ten thousand finger prisons. It is the deep trenches of inculcation from indulgence and obscurance that favors the habituations and the deep DNA propensities.

 

it also has results as a teacher that is exacting and relentless, also making preparation for moving on or repeating if a lesson was not learned so we should own our way through it.   Btw. spotless do you talk like that when you get together with family and friends - holy cow man that sounds like a lot of overhead!?

Edited August 28, 2018 by 3bob

[Bindi]

This is related to neidan, something like immortal spirit self-replication from memory. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Bindi

[Spotless]

2 hours ago, 3bob said:

 

it also has results as a teacher that is exacting and relentless, also making preparation for moving on or repeating if a lesson was not learned so we should own our way through it.   Btw. spotless do you talk like that when you get together with family and friends - holy cow man that sounds like a lot of overhead!?

It is not a teacher - other than handcuffs "teach", a straight jacket teaches. The struggle is as a Chinese finger prison - willfulness is met with restraint and compression equal to the resistance. The legacy of habituation is relentless in it's ease of use and practiced venting and entrainment. The frequencies one is grasped within bare the fruits of what those tuning forks attract to them in like vibration.

 

IN Awakening this falls away.

 

In everyday life this is lite and Light - it is burdenless.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Spotless

[silent thunder]

when willfulness is released

when grasping is released

when seeking, acquiring, comparing and valuation are released

when abiding in unfolding and releasing all

 

what remains?

 

what is there to teach and learn

 

let go in beingness

 

be here now

 

what else is there?

[3bob]

2 hours ago, Spotless said:

It is not a teacher - other than handcuffs "teach", a straight jacket teaches. The struggle is as a Chinese finger prison - willfulness is met with restraint and compression equal to the resistance. The legacy of habituation is relentless in it's ease of use and practiced venting and entrainment. The frequencies one is grasped within bare the fruits of what those tuning forks attract to them in like vibration.

 

IN Awakening this falls away.

 

In everyday life this is lite and Light - it is burdenless.

 

 

 

 

 

there is no lasting freedom unless we work out and resolve karmas,  we can walk around all day long saying, "awakening, enlightenment, nirvana, oneness, Self-realization, the Buddha said this, and so and so said that, etc..  but without the work and Grace such is just mostly concepts.  (although that is a start and does have a place)

[Bindi]

4 hours ago, 3bob said:

 

there is no lasting freedom unless we work out and resolve karmas,  we can walk around all day long saying, "awakening, enlightenment, nirvana, oneness, Self-realization, the Buddha said this, and so and so said that, etc..  but without the work and Grace such is just mostly concepts.  (although that is a start and does have a place)

 

Yes, this ^

 

[silent thunder]

where is there a place in the universe that is 'apart' from the rest so as to not be in unison with the manifest?

 

within awareness, within beingness... what is not included, that could be considered separate?

 

through work we realize?  before work there is no unity and after work there is unity?

 

work creates unity? 

 

release all... that which remains is what is...

Edited September 1, 2018 by silent thunder

[Bindi]

Adyashanti who self-identifies as awakened, refers to karma beyond awakening.

 

Quote

So it is the process that happens after awakening that I want to explore. As I’ve said, for a very few people, the moment of awakening will be complete. It will be final in a certain sense, and there will be no need for a continuing process. We might say that such people had an extraordinarily light karmic load; even though they may have experienced extreme suffering before awakening, one can see that their karmic inheritance, the conditioning that they were dealing with, wasn’t too deep. This is very rare. Only a few people in a given generation may wake up in such a way that there’s no further process to undergo.

 

 

[Spotless]

16 hours ago, Bindi said:

Adyashanti who self-identifies as awakened, refers to karma beyond awakening.

 

 

 

Adyshanti:

"So it is the process that happens after awakening that I want to explore. As I’ve said, for a very few people, the moment of awakening will be complete. It will be final in a certain sense, and there will be no need for a continuing process. We might say that such people had an extraordinarily light karmic load; even though they may have experienced extreme suffering before awakening, one can see that their karmic inheritance, the conditioning that they were dealing with, wasn’t too deep. This is very rare. Only a few people in a given generation may wake up in such a way that there’s no further process to undergo."

 

 

This is the case - yet many who do Awaken go through profound release of the Karmic compressions to a very great extent. Frequently it takes several years (usually two or more) to adjust or acclimate.  My experience in the first two years was one of vast silence.

 

Words only began to trickle in around 2013. For quite some time it was as though all of the person hood that I had been identified with had left entirely. And the identification was gone - but here and there the compressions and fragments of "a story" emerged. - also the gullies from energetic peaks had left a mark in the physical form - I could still get angry - but it would not last and I was not invested in it - it was as though I got a sudden quick minutes long cold and then it subsided.

 

In True Qi Gong the residual compressions or as the Indian traditions call it "faint remains" (I do not know the actual spelling of the word) fall away. This will also happen in True Yoga.

 

Many people are Awakening at this time and many are doing so with very considerable inclination and habituation still remaining - and they are more easily pulled back into the obscured state in rejoining the grasping and positioning.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Spotless

[dwai]

My friend and I were discussing this. His position was that there is a sudden and clear awakening which is complete and irreversible and with it comes great clarity about the true nature and the falsity of stories.  In my experience, it can be a gradual process of letting go of identities and positions after waking up to our true nature. In the process, there is a vacillation, a swinging of the pendulum to and from clarity/presence and samsara. This continues as long as there are vāsanās, with each clearing a vāsanā is dissolved, and eventually a new one arises to be dissolved/let go. 

 

I even know of a few people who woke up via tai chi, but without having adequate words to logically explain what was happening, were suffering as a result of being stuck with the misidentification with the personalities (how one is expected to behave and act while playing roles of spouse, parent, child, sibling, friend, member of society, etc). There are two parts to the waking up, I feel. One is the Direct apperception and the other the framework knowledge.  Sometimes the normal sequence of framework knowledge -> understanding -> contemplation -> meditation -> awakening is not followed.  It could be awakening + framework knowledge -> understanding -> contemplation -> meditation

 

 

 

 

[Spotless]

In general it is "dramatic" in the sense that it is actually very very rare to ease up and into Awakened Realization - one might be easing up into it happening for many life times - but very generally it "happens" fairly suddenly and dramatically as the tensions in the ten thousand finger prisons suddenly do not pull and the prisons no longer hold a grasp and cease to exist.

 

Initailly it may be nearly completely debilitating and doing much more than getting up to eat a bit and going to the bathroom is about all one is involved with. Simply sitting in the endless timeless all and everything - one has no inertia in anything - no back story - it is unlike anything one has ever read in a book - accept that now one can understand what was written in those books.

 

Words are completely inadequate for what transpires.

 

There is one component that is complete and unchanging once Awakened and having come to abidance in the Awakened "state" - the unborn - the Divine Essence - one is more or less abiding in it - it is always there to the greater degree. Personality and investment in personal position has initially fallen almost completely to the wayside if not completely - one can be near fully incapacitated by it and then as has been said "faint remains" emerge here and there as one stands upright more often and engages in more the physical.

 

The physical nature of Awakening is that it is Exteemely physical in the sense of embodiment - but at the same time all automations of the psyche have come to a stop - one is In Present Presence - extrodinarily tangible - with no movement - no inertia's.

 

The non-investment of personality in positions falls away and truth can be seen - not in forgiveness - which would be through the lens of position - but seen almost from an historical perspective as though all is known from both the positions of those involved and no-position non-object. Its almost as though people were playing in a role on a set and fully IN their parts and then the director in the middle of an intense scene says "cut - take a break - get some rest".

 

And then your son comes into the room and says "hi dad"

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Spotless

[Spotless]

Quote from Dwai

 

"In my experience, it can be a gradual process of letting go of identities and positions after waking up to our true nature"

 

This is nearly always the case - even in the most extreme cases - without "faint remains" one would have to be fed and bathed and taught how to live again - this is simply not lost. And personality and DNA while no longer making the trance inducing overwhelming noise and inertia - still have pockets - some may big deep pockets.

 

Initially it is extraordinarily helpful to have an Awakened teacher to speak too or a background in this former idea of the Awakened state and hopefully not an overly idealized one.  

Edited August 29, 2018 by Spotless

[Spotless]

Post Awakening  - finding abidance and acclimation takes time - the pendulum will swing regarding the degree to which this vast Presence is abiding and if noise has entered / been encountered. But in the general sense - nothing is any longer overwhelming or anxious. Futures are not in the mix of Presence - not in any sense of extrapolation.

 

Plannng has ceased - spontaneity has come forth as well as peace and gratitude - a general gratitude toward no thing - 

 

Unity consciousness may come slowly and prior to Awakening - if this is the case it may be mistaken for Awakening. A great deal falls away in the dissolution of competiveness and otherness. So much so that in this liberation and greater landscape it is taken as Awakening and often can be seen in nearly obsessive "heart" teachings.

 

Unity consciousness or Oneness can also blossom at Awakening and after in great expansions of heart ❤️ 

 

 

[Spotless]

Regarding the idea of Sudden Complete and irreversible - it is never the case:

 

It is possible that one Awaken and be IN full abidance immediately - it is a stunning gut Awakening of monumental proportions!

 

but that does not preclude the possibility of choosing to "loose" oneself and continue to explore obscurance.

[Bindi]

6 hours ago, Spotless said:

Adyshanti:

"So it is the process that happens after awakening that I want to explore. As I’ve said, for a very few people, the moment of awakening will be complete. It will be final in a certain sense, and there will be no need for a continuing process. We might say that such people had an extraordinarily light karmic load; even though they may have experienced extreme suffering before awakening, one can see that their karmic inheritance, the conditioning that they were dealing with, wasn’t too deep. This is very rare. Only a few people in a given generation may wake up in such a way that there’s no further process to undergo."

 

 

This is the case - yet many who do Awaken go through profound release of the Karmic compressions to a very great extent. Frequently it takes several years (usually two or more) to adjust or acclimate.  My experience in the first two years was one of vast silence.

 

Words only began to trickle in around 2013. For quite some time it was as though all of the person hood that I had been identified with had left entirely. And the identification was gone - but here and there the compressions and fragments of "a story" emerged. - also the gullies from energetic peaks had left a mark in the physical form - I could still get angry - but it would not last and I was not invested in it - it was as though I got a sudden quick minutes long cold and then it subsided.

 

Do you engage in any emotions? 

 

6 hours ago, Spotless said:

In True Qi Gong the residual compressions or as the Indian traditions call it "faint remains" (I do not know the actual spelling of the word) fall away. This will also happen in True Yoga.

 

Many people are Awakening at this time and many are doing so with very considerable inclination and habituation still remaining - and they are more easily pulled back into the obscured state in rejoining the grasping and positioning.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Spotless]

42 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Do you engage in any emotions? 

 

 

Awakening does not preclude emotion - though when you say "engage" it may be a loaded question. The nature of emotions - highs and lows changes entirely - yet I have seen all great filmed teachers shed a tear or become unable to speak - or have read recounting of students of great masters with "moods" and quick flare-ups now and then. 

In "emergency" situations a general calm is present - gone is any panic.

Panic is gone - vested emotion is gone. 

 

In India quite a few references to great masters reference such things as "he was a rough man" or "his manner was abrupt" or "he had no suffering of fools"

 

Several are or were known to be quite persnickety about food or flower arrangements. 

 

Regarding the so called perfection of masters - it is fine to consider it - but until one has Awakened it does not really matter to much and after one has it does not matter at all. 

 

Suffice it to be known that Awakening is in some cases referred to as Enlightenment - if in an Abiding State - it is the end of suffering - and by some definitions this is Enlightenment - so then we see references to Full Enlightenment - and some have many stages to this after Awakening - and before.

 

One can look at the general process in a healthy light as:

1. Read like crazy and get fully excited - you will need to fully believe you are heading in a direction you wish to go (and die).

2. Put down the books and practice - practice and learn well the basics - the basics are the advanced lessons - they are the meat - from there the mountain is built - the secret stuff is nothing - all of that you will come to know on your own.

3. Work to be neutral - to know nothing

4. When Siddhis come do not become them

5. When Awakening arrives - continue practice of some sort or find devotion as you will - seek not to teach until and if teaching comes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bindi]

48 minutes ago, Spotless said:

Awakening does not preclude emotion - though when you say "engage" it may be a loaded question. The nature of emotions - highs and lows changes entirely - yet I have seen all great filmed teachers shed a tear or become unable to speak - or have read recounting of students of great masters with "moods" and quick flare-ups now and then. 

In "emergency" situations a general calm is present - gone is any panic.

Panic is gone - vested emotion is gone. 

 

When I say engage, I mean something along the lines of Rumi's 'The Guesthouse'

 

This being human is a guest house.
Every morning a new arrival.

A joy, a depression, a meanness,
some momentary awareness comes
as an unexpected visitor.

Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they are a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still, treat each guest honorably.
He may be clearing you out
for some new delight.

The dark thought, the shame, the malice.
meet them at the door laughing and invite them in.

Be grateful for whatever comes.
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.

— Jellaludin Rumi

 

48 minutes ago, Spotless said:

In India quite a few references to great masters reference such things as "he was a rough man" or "his manner was abrupt" or "he had no suffering of fools"

 

Several are or were known to be quite persnickety about food or flower arrangements. 

 

Regarding the so called perfection of masters - it is fine to consider it - but until one has Awakened it does not really matter to much and after one has it does not matter at all. 

 

Suffice it to be known that Awakening is in some cases referred to as Enlightenment - if in an Abiding State - it is the end of suffering - and by some definitions this is Enlightenment - so then we see references to Full Enlightenment - and some have many stages to this after Awakening - and before.

 

One can look at the general process in a healthy light as:

1. Read like crazy and get fully excited - you will need to fully believe you are heading in a direction you wish to go (and die).

2. Put down the books and practice - practice and learn well the basics - the basics are the advanced lessons - they are the meat - from there the mountain is built - the secret stuff is nothing - all of that you will come to know on your own.

3. Work to be neutral - to know nothing

4. When Siddhis come do not become them

5. When Awakening arrives - continue practice of some sort or find devotion as you will - seek not to teach until and if teaching comes.