Is non-duality actually a fundamental truth, or just another philosophy?

[doc benway]

11 minutes ago, dwai said:

It seems that mind (thinking mind) is "heavier" than energy and we use in our style of tai chi to counterbalance the energy.  Also our everyday experience says that we can experience our mind (thoughts, emotions, feelings) far more palpably than we can energy (ie speaking from a lay person's point of view). 

 

So it seems you are using the word energy to denote Qi?

[dwai]

27 minutes ago, steve said:

 

So it seems you are using the word energy to denote Qi?

Yes

[3bob]

another point about the renunciate, it is said that the world (so speak) also renounces them.

[Marblehead]

8 hours ago, 3bob said:

another point about the renunciate, it is said that the world (so speak) also renounces them.

I wish that were more true than it really is.

 

[Everything]

Non-duality is just the balancing of the duality, and at the center you find the higher truth of the trinity.

A sort of union of physical and non-physical, into one perfect blend of harmonious perspective. Not complete! Ever expanding... But perfect, in every moment, nonetheless.

This is the paradise you seek, and you can just feel your way there.

You sort of harmonise the gap, close the gap, and unify and fuse the two seemingly conflicting paradoxical repelling ideas and concepts into one whole union of higher truth.

 

But as far as I am aware, you cannot do this without a physical aspect, for it is the physical aspect, when balanced, that becomes the channel through which that higher truth is thus expressed and thus experienced and thus allowed to be known and thus expanded upon, focused upon, contemplated upon, and again expanded upon, forever more, in absolutely perfect harmony. And thus, this physical environment, is pretty much eternal. We are not going somewhere else, we are just going more towards what is already here and now. Even if you die, you go more towards what is here and now. And some people are already able to develop awareness of all those who came before us, who are also still very much focused right here and now with us. And so, you could say, we are well under way towards developing this harmonious perspective in our physical expression of being, that is in alignment with our natural truth of unique and infinitely and eternally valuable being. Again, always perfect, but never complete. Always expanding into more.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Everything

[3bob]

inspiring  and poetic everything,  - although I'd say the ocean does not expand more.

[Daemon]

1 hour ago, 3bob said:

inspiring  and poetic everything,  - although I'd say the ocean does not expand more.

 

Is that an attempt to place conceptual boundaries upon the ocean?

 

☮️

 

[Everything]

50 minutes ago, 3bob said:

inspiring  and poetic everything,  - although I'd say the ocean does not expand more.

Think of expansion as the law of change. You know for example, you can never experience the same moment twice. Always moving towards more, towards what has never been before, towards that which is new and now. That is the current that is which we are made of. And you cannot experience what you experience, without becoming more, as a soul. You realize new preferences due to your exposure to the contrasting environment of variety, and you come to new conclusions, and you expand because of that.

Sometimes we think that things are becoming "less" and it is not so. For example, the phones we use have become smaller. But they have expanded in resolution. Our physical environment has been expanding in resolution aswell. We become more aware of the truth.

It was no so very long ago that humans on earth had no way of defining or observing, or even becoming aware of a boat or ship. They could not even conclude that the boat was a rock, they had absolutely no idea of what an ocean is for example. But curiosity is what led them to conquer their fears. And they have come to love the ocean,  and from that newness, more possibility arose and thus again, new experience, that lead to more new experiences, etc. However, you do not always expand outwards. You can also expand inwards. Just like the idea of the expansion of resolution, on your tv screen or digital display. And monks often do this, expansion inwards, and it is an amazing thing that they have found the value of doing so. For your consciousness, is truely the final frontier.

We're always moving towards a new experience, and if we don't know why, it means that in that moment, we have some sort of resistance towards our eternal expression that is who we are. Wether it be some doubt we have, or otherwise, it does not matter. It doesn't change who we are. But it does make the experience appear less than what it actually is, and you sort go with the current, but trying to not go with it, it's a pointless experience of futile resistance. And so we sort of meditate, and let go of all our limitting thoughts and believes, that cause us to act in those ways, but also think in that way, most importantly and primarily, it is the thoughts that cause this resistance which again causes us to feel less than who we truely are. As we are no longer fearing what we are destined to become, but loving it, by knowing who we are now, and finding the power in all of that, by loving who we are in the moment and the natural expression of all of that, and seeing the same expression in all of nature, simply by quieting our mind and feeling that appreciation naturally flow to the surface of our mind and heart, as we return our awareness from a thought back to our breath for example, in time, we sort of end in a quiet mind, and before we know it suddenly we feel a sort of appreciation for our environment rise up in our awareness, suddenly we feel happy, and inspired, and we feel good. That is the inner perspective of your soul that arises to the surface of your now clear mind, with just a simple relaxing and conscious wakeful meditation. And if you're not used to it, it may feel strange, and even too good to be true, and so you sort of drown out that clarity, like usual, however this time, when you do it, it will feel extra bad, and so you become more self conscious of the habbits of thought that cause it, and when you become aware of a habbit, it is no longer a habbit, but a choice, so you sort of let go of those thoughts and return your awareness back to your breath, and watch the natural unfoldment that is the natural inclination of your physical nature to return back to its natural state of pure perfect harmony and bliss. But once you've experienced it, you will no longer be able to tolerate anything less, as you've never suppose to be ment to tolerate it in the first place. You cannot become less, and feel good at the same time. Once you wake up to the remembrance of all that you are, have been and will be, you wanna sort of go with it. And it really is so simple as living in the moment, cause that is what you came here to do as a soul. We often try to be somewhere else, and end up going nowhere, but if you sort of just accept where you are, and accept the fact that you will always be here and now in this moment, then you sort of go with the flow of things, and now suddenly you find yourself allowing the natural tendency of this body to move and go places! And now suddenly you realize, you are always going places, and you are always going towards that which is even better, and more fun and more interesting. But sometimes, we have to first allow ourselves to make peace with where we are, before we want to allow that to happen.

So you enter the power of the now, and align with the natural order of things, by quieting your mind, and as you become as nature, in your natural state of being, now you can be as the nature that you actually already are, now you can allow yourself to be who you actually are, and you will find the entire universe exist solely to fulfill every desire that you can possibly hold for yourself. And it is not like you need to do anything to make that happen, just get out of your own way. But you don't do that thing you do that gets in your own way on purpose. You sort of have been living it and others have been teaching it to you, but if you meditate, you have no thought, and if you have no thought, all those habbits fall to the way side, and you enter the power of the now. And you come back home to who you really are, and you cannot allow that happen without feeling wonderful and very good, and so you slowly let go of all that which no longer has anything to do with who you really are. But sometimes it requires allot of pain for someone to just decide to let go of it all. And just surrender, and just live in the moment and be who you truely are.

[3bob]

3 hours ago, Everything said:

Think of expansion as the law of change. You know for example, you can never experience the same moment twice. Always moving towards more, towards what has never been before, towards that which is new and now. That is the current that is which we are made of. And you cannot experience what you experience, without becoming more, as a soul. You realize new preferences due to your exposure to the contrasting environment of variety, and you come to new conclusions, and you expand because of that.

Sometimes we think that things are becoming "less" and it is not so. For example, the phones we use have become smaller. But they have expanded in resolution. Our physical environment has been expanding in resolution aswell. We become more aware of the truth.

It was no so very long ago that humans on earth had no way of defining or observing, or even becoming aware of a boat or ship. They could not even conclude that the boat was a rock, they had absolutely no idea of what an ocean is for example. But curiosity is what led them to conquer their fears. And they have come to love the ocean,  and from that newness, more possibility arose and thus again, new experience, that lead to more new experiences, etc. However, you do not always expand outwards. You can also expand inwards. Just like the idea of the expansion of resolution, on your tv screen or digital display. And monks often do this, expansion inwards, and it is an amazing thing that they have found the value of doing so. For your consciousness, is truely the final frontier.

We're always moving towards a new experience, and if we don't know why, it means that in that moment, we have some sort of resistance towards our eternal expression that is who we are. Wether it be some doubt we have, or otherwise, it does not matter. It doesn't change who we are. But it does make the experience appear less than what it actually is, and you sort go with the current, but trying to not go with it, it's a pointless experience of futile resistance. And so we sort of meditate, and let go of all our limitting thoughts and believes, that cause us to act in those ways, but also think in that way, most importantly and primarily, it is the thoughts that cause this resistance which again causes us to feel less than who we truely are. As we are no longer fearing what we are destined to become, but loving it, by knowing who we are now, and finding the power in all of that, by loving who we are in the moment and the natural expression of all of that, and seeing the same expression in all of nature, simply by quieting our mind and feeling that appreciation naturally flow to the surface of our mind and heart, as we return our awareness from a thought back to our breath for example, in time, we sort of end in a quiet mind, and before we know it suddenly we feel a sort of appreciation for our environment rise up in our awareness, suddenly we feel happy, and inspired, and we feel good. That is the inner perspective of your soul that arises to the surface of your now clear mind, with just a simple relaxing and conscious wakeful meditation. And if you're not used to it, it may feel strange, and even too good to be true, and so you sort of drown out that clarity, like usual, however this time, when you do it, it will feel extra bad, and so you become more self conscious of the habbits of thought that cause it, and when you become aware of a habbit, it is no longer a habbit, but a choice, so you sort of let go of those thoughts and return your awareness back to your breath, and watch the natural unfoldment that is the natural inclination of your physical nature to return back to its natural state of pure perfect harmony and bliss. But once you've experienced it, you will no longer be able to tolerate anything less, as you've never suppose to be ment to tolerate it in the first place. You cannot become less, and feel good at the same time. Once you wake up to the remembrance of all that you are, have been and will be, you wanna sort of go with it. And it really is so simple as living in the moment, cause that is what you came here to do as a soul. We often try to be somewhere else, and end up going nowhere, but if you sort of just accept where you are, and accept the fact that you will always be here and now in this moment, then you sort of go with the flow of things, and now suddenly you find yourself allowing the natural tendency of this body to move and go places! And now suddenly you realize, you are always going places, and you are always going towards that which is even better, and more fun and more interesting. But sometimes, we have to first allow ourselves to make peace with where we are, before we want to allow that to happen.

So you enter the power of the now, and align with the natural order of things, by quieting your mind, and as you become as nature, in your natural state of being, now you can be as the nature that you actually already are, now you can allow yourself to be who you actually are, and you will find the entire universe exist solely to fulfill every desire that you can possibly hold for yourself. And it is not like you need to do anything to make that happen, just get out of your own way. But you don't do that thing you do that gets in your own way on purpose. You sort of have been living it and others have been teaching it to you, but if you meditate, you have no thought, and if you have no thought, all those habbits fall to the way side, and you enter the power of the now. And you come back home to who you really are, and you cannot allow that happen without feeling wonderful and very good, and so you slowly let go of all that which no longer has anything to do with who you really are. But sometimes it requires allot of pain for someone to just decide to let go of it all. And just surrender, and just live in the moment and be who you truely are.

 

umm, the ocean (Self) does not change, but agreed that a particular soul does change/evolve. 

[Daemon]

11 minutes ago, 3bob said:

 

umm, the ocean (Self) does not change, but agreed that a particular soul does change/evolve.

 

 

Doesn't that drive a proverbial chariot and horses straight through the Hindu fundamentalist doctrine that atman is Brahman?

 

☮️

 

[3bob]

10 minutes ago, Daemon said:

 

Doesn't that drive a proverbial chariot and horses straight through the Hindu fundamentalist doctrine that atman is Brahman?

 

☮️

 

 

does that mean you prefer the fundamentalist Buddhist take?  

 

Anyway anybody can take it or leave it as they want - 

[Everything]

1 hour ago, 3bob said:

 

umm, the ocean (Self) does not change, but agreed that a particular soul does change/evolve. 

Oh you mean like that yeah. The fact that you exist doesn't change, but your experience of your self does always grow and expand into more.

[3bob]

42 minutes ago, Everything said:

Oh you mean like that yeah. The fact that you exist doesn't change, but your experience of your self does always grow and expand into more.

 

and when a soul is finally satisfied with being a particular somebody - will they then one day only be satisfied with the ocean?

[Everything]

4 hours ago, 3bob said:

 

and when a soul is finally satisfied with being a particular somebody - will they then one day only be satisfied with the ocean?

You are satisfied and thus in that satisfaction, you expand to new and more and even more satisfaction and better satisfaction etc. But saying, only be satisfied with the ocean is like assuming that there is anything other than the ocean. The ocean is focused right here and now with you on you and your experience and your environment. And when your perspective of your environment feels bad, then you can feel the discord between your perspective and that of your greater higher deeper non physical eternal soul consciousness, wether you call it God or Source of Creation, or Consciousness or Soul, it does not matter. If you feel satisfied you are in alignment and harmony with that which is who you truely are, all that you truely are. Right now in this moment. Always a present feedback of your emotions. Defining to you that relationship between you (physical you) and YOU (your non physical eternal greater knowing). There is nothing outside of infinity and eternity and existance. You come forth along with your entire universe as a projection of the non physical realm. And part of your non physical consciousness is focused into your body. To experience the contrasting variety here and come to new conclusions and preferences. Always being called by Source to more and more. And better and more. And thus you are constantly inspired. And always expanding into more. And the ever expanding nature of it is what makes it eternal and infinite. And you are part of the reason why it expands. A very vital part of it. Infact, you cannot take yourself out of the equation. You cannot ever become less than all that you have become, It is not possible. And you also cannot help but expand, it happens so easily and automatically. You are that valuable. Without you, the entire structure would fall appart. Crumble to absolutely nothing and even worse. And its simply not possible and just a silly idea. You can never be truely disconnected from your Source, only experience a less connection, even tho all the desires you hold for yourself. It is a given. The coming to full fruition of everything you can possibly wish, it is a given. How or when, is up to you. Very often people wait untill they die, before they allow all of that to manifest for themselves. Which is not necessary, but it seems to be a thing we do on this planet for some odd strange reason.

However, it is possible to consider that when you become the ocean itself, purely, just become existance itself. Be all that exists. Then you have no awareness and no ability to perceive anything outside of yourself, and so no ability to develop any idea or awareness of yourself. Just like dreaming and suddenly realizing you are the dream. And the dream sort of fades away. And you wake up to who you truely are. To the more of who you truely are. The higher truth. And you are then able to see all that you have never witnessed before, in all that you have become now, all focused right here and now, from a new point of view, completely fresh and new. And this now moment and new experience, you have the ability to completely redifine everything. Change the entire universe. And so there is also an infinity of that, ability to wake up to ever more higher states of being and awareness. And every awakening will yield absolutely unimaginable revelations. Enriching you with the highest of knowledge and experiences. More vivid and more lucid and more real and intense. Etc.

 

But if you mean to be content? Ofcourse, you can be content right now. And I'm pretty sure you are content. And good things are certainly flowing into your life. And patyways you want to walk will certainly become visible to you if you are truely feeling contentment and being satisfied with your now experience. And as you get into the flow and comfort of constantly walking down those enjoyable pathways, and enjoying yet another day full of new things you liked and enjoyed, you sort of get the ball rolling. And ignite the natural joyful vibrant being that is your true nature back to life. Always inspired to move in yet another fun pathway and experience. That is our deserving and everlasting destiny. And like anything, if you've practiced something else, you need some time unlearning those old habbitual ways of being and living and viewing life and perceiving life, and get back into the natural state of your being, and get used to that and allow it to become the most practiced mode of being in life. And eventually you just click into place and you find, there is nothing easier to you than enjoy yet another day of fulfilling every possible desire you can possibly imagne, simply because you exist and that is the only reason you need to know your own infinitely deserving nature. Because you are that which existance is made out of.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Everything

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, 3bob said:

 

and when a soul is finally satisfied with being a particular somebody - will they then one day only be satisfied with the ocean?

 

When I am dissatisfied enough for long enough with being only the river, I will become the riverocean. 

[3bob]

4 hours ago, Everything said:

You are satisfied and thus in that satisfaction, you expand to new and more and even more satisfaction and better satisfaction etc. But saying, only be satisfied with the ocean is like assuming that there is anything other than the ocean. The ocean is focused right here and now with you on you and your experience and your environment. And when your perspective of your environment feels bad, then you can feel the discord between your perspective and that of your greater higher deeper non physical eternal soul consciousness, wether you call it God or Source of Creation, or Consciousness or Soul, it does not matter. If you feel satisfied you are in alignment and harmony with that which is who you truely are, all that you truely are. Right now in this moment. Always a present feedback of your emotions. Defining to you that relationship between you (physical you) and YOU (your non physical eternal greater knowing). There is nothing outside of infinity and eternity and existance. You come forth along with your entire universe as a projection of the non physical realm. And part of your non physical consciousness is focused into your body. To experience the contrasting variety here and come to new conclusions and preferences. Always being called by Source to more and more. And better and more. And thus you are constantly inspired. And always expanding into more. And the ever expanding nature of it is what makes it eternal and infinite. And you are part of the reason why it expands. A very vital part of it. Infact, you cannot take yourself out of the equation. You cannot ever become less than all that you have become, It is not possible. And you also cannot help but expand, it happens so easily and automatically. You are that valuable. Without you, the entire structure would fall appart. Crumble to absolutely nothing and even worse. And its simply not possible and just a silly idea. You can never be truely disconnected from your Source, only experience a less connection, even tho all the desires you hold for yourself. It is a given. The coming to full fruition of everything you can possibly wish, it is a given. How or when, is up to you. Very often people wait untill they die, before they allow all of that to manifest for themselves. Which is not necessary, but it seems to be a thing we do on this planet for some odd strange reason.

However, it is possible to consider that when you become the ocean itself, purely, just become existance itself. Be all that exists. Then you have no awareness and no ability to perceive anything outside of yourself, and so no ability to develop any idea or awareness of yourself. Just like dreaming and suddenly realizing you are the dream. And the dream sort of fades away. And you wake up to who you truely are. To the more of who you truely are. The higher truth. And you are then able to see all that you have never witnessed before, in all that you have become now, all focused right here and now, from a new point of view, completely fresh and new. And this now moment and new experience, you have the ability to completely redifine everything. Change the entire universe. And so there is also an infinity of that, ability to wake up to ever more higher states of being and awareness. And every awakening will yield absolutely unimaginable revelations. Enriching you with the highest of knowledge and experiences. More vivid and more lucid and more real and intense. Etc.

 

But if you mean to be content? Ofcourse, you can be content right now. And I'm pretty sure you are content. And good things are certainly flowing into your life. And patyways you want to walk will certainly become visible to you if you are truely feeling contentment and being satisfied with your now experience. And as you get into the flow and comfort of constantly walking down those enjoyable pathways, and enjoying yet another day full of new things you liked and enjoyed, you sort of get the ball rolling. And ignite the natural joyful vibrant being that is your true nature back to life. Always inspired to move in yet another fun pathway and experience. That is our deserving and everlasting destiny. And like anything, if you've practiced something else, you need some time unlearning those old habbitual ways of being and living and viewing life and perceiving life, and get back into the natural state of your being, and get used to that and allow it to become the most practiced mode of being in life. And eventually you just click into place and you find, there is nothing easier to you than enjoy yet another day of fulfilling every possible desire you can possibly imagne, simply because you exist and that is the only reason you need to know your own infinitely deserving nature. Because you are that which existance is made out of.

 

you must type a hell of a lot faster than I do,  and thanks for the long dissertations although my time to read and study them is limited...glad you are on fire man - why not... 

[Daemon]

20 hours ago, 3bob said:

 

does that mean you prefer the fundamentalist Buddhist take?  

 

Anyway anybody can take it or leave it as they want - 

 

 

Does your question mean that you'd prefer to discuss Buddhism instead of discussing the fundamental tenet of Hinduism about which you seem to have an unusually individualistic view (i.e. that atma isn't Brahma).

I'm fairly comfortable with the fundamentals of either  religion and equally comfortable to take them or leave them.

How about you?

 

☮️

 

Edited September 12, 2018 by Daemon

[3bob]

2 hours ago, Daemon said:

 

Does your question mean that you'd prefer to discuss Buddhism instead of discussing the fundamental tenet of Hinduism about which you seem to have an unusually individualistic view (i.e. that atma isn't Brahma).

I'm fairly comfortable with the fundamentals of either  religion and equally comfortable to take them or leave them.

How about you?

 

☮️

 

 

fry your fish and I'll fry mine...  

[s1va]

On 8/16/2018 at 9:34 PM, Bindi said:

Is non-duality actually a fundamental truth, or just another philosophy? Is there some overwhelming proof beyond intellectual assertion? Is it only a Vedantic philosophy, or is it also asserted in Buddhism, Daoism, New ageism? Is it practical to even contemplate when we are physical beings with physical limits? 

 

I think non-duality is a fundamental truth at some levels, but it is not the entire (final) truth.  The key point being 'at some levels' in that statement.  There is a lot more to reality than the non-duality.

 

But the problem many times with those that profess non-duality is that they think that is the be-all end-all of everything.   This is not true.  And much more important, just by talking about non-dual or discussing or fighting for it, one does not realize or get anywhere near the non-dual state.  Most of such activities are meaningless in my opinion. 

 

Those that profess non-dual theory generally does not want to hear the part where I said, there is more to reality.  There can't be more, because more means something else and it falls outside the non-dual paradigm.  This becomes a trap making someone think 'this' or their way of thinking or conclusion on non-dual is the final truth and anything else that talks about differentiation is just ignorance.  This can be a trap since it avoids any further growth or expansion  making someone believe they have found the final answer, while they may not have the full realization of the said state.

 

It is always wise to be open minded and have an inquiring mind rather than to lock oneself with any rigid concepts that may inhibit further growth or expansion.  For all practical purposes the talk about non-dual holds no value.  It is far more important to understand and practice things like the noble eightfold steps that may produce real results.

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, s1va said:

For all practical purposes the talk about non-dual holds no value. 

I liked your post except for this sentence.

 

But then, the talk?  Perhaps without value.  But its application in one's life:  there is value here.

 

[s1va]

19 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I liked your post except for this sentence.

 

But then, the talk?  Perhaps without value.  But its application in one's life:  there is value here.

 

 

I meant the non-dual is a state that a person arrives at.  With respect to non-dual, there is nothing conciously to apply in one's life.  But by applying methods like the noble eightfold path, one arrives at the state of non-dual.  It is a state or truth that is discovered.

[Marblehead]

3 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

I meant the non-dual is a state that a person arrives at.  With respect to non-dual, there is nothing conciously to apply in one's life.  But by applying methods like the noble eightfold path, one arrives at the state of non-dual.  It is a state or truth that is discovered.

Nicely explained.

 

[Integrated]

I think Ken Wilber asserts that non-duality is consciously accessing the state of rem-sleep.

Nothing in the world changes, it is just your perception of it.

And apart from the impression it makes on your experience,

you do not become radically changed by it.

Just as sleep won't change you much, you wake up maybe in a better mood, but that is it.

Your work, bills, friends and family will stay just the same when you "come back/wake up."

[Everything]

On 9/12/2018 at 5:23 AM, 3bob said:

 

you must type a hell of a lot faster than I do,  and thanks for the long dissertations although my time to read and study them is limited...glad you are on fire man - why not... 

Funny you say that, it's true, and thanks for sharing your perspective. I also enjoy moments of sharing in few words.

[John_H]

On 9/12/2018 at 1:06 PM, s1va said:

 

I meant the non-dual is a state that a person arrives at.  

I'd describe it as the state where the person departs