Is non-duality actually a fundamental truth, or just another philosophy?

[Bindi]

4 hours ago, 3bob said:

 

the Self (capitol S) is not a thing thus that whole argument is off if one is also open to  deeper meanings, meanings btw. which the historic Buddha often stressed.  Also if one sticks to that summation then there is no end to rounds of suffering.   Which brings up a saying from the historic Buddha himself:

 

"There is the unborn, uncreated, unformed, unoriginated, and therefore there is an escape from the born, created, formed, originated. If it were not for the unborn, uncreated, unformed, unoriginated, there would be no escape from the born, created, formed, originated, but because there is the unborn, uncreated, unformed, unoriginated, there is an escape, there is liberation from the born, created, formed, originated (Udana VIII.3)."

 

and if that "unborn" etc. is changing and is not an eternal fact and or factor if you will, due to also being of aggregates then all is the, "vanity of vanities"...(with eternal seeming to be a four letter word to many Buddhist even though the historic Buddha could have used it in the context of this saying,  btw I would not equate this Buddhist saying with Vedic summations although there are some undeniable overlaps in terms and meanings) 

 

Self, soul, Buddha nature, immortal spirit, are any of them a thing? Or all not things? Why are those that aren't things not a thing? 

[3bob]

trying to definitively correlate systems, teachings and terms is bound to be problematic...and often not kosher if or when one steps on another system and its people.   Many of us (myself included) still do the correlation trips and do not mean any harm;  anyway imagine what it might be like in just sticking to one system (for however long it works out) and its terms and teachings without getting all crossed up at the same time with others.

 

  There is a very logical and to whatever degree  cryptic saying in Taoism which I think one could use  as part of an answer to your question:   From Chapter 43, "...Only Nothing can enter into no-space..."  (for myself I'd change the term Nothing into no-thing)

 

[Marblehead]

But space and time were born at exactly the same moment.  So it takes time for no thing to enter no space.

 

But then, I have never found a reason to apply this concept in real life so it doesn't seem to be very important.

 

[Bindi]

6 minutes ago, 3bob said:

trying to definitively correlate systems, teachings and terms is bound to be problematic...and often not kosher if or when one steps on another system and its people.   Many of us (myself included) still do the correlation trips and do not mean any harm;  anyway imagine what it might be like in just sticking to one system (for however long it works out) and its terms and teachings without getting all crossed up at the same time with others.

 

Well that's kind of interesting in itself, because they should all be describing the same thing logically, and if their definitions and understanding differs so much, then they're not describing what is actually true, but just their own version of something beyond the physical body. 

 

6 minutes ago, 3bob said:

  There is a very logical and to whatever degree  cryptic saying in Taoism which I think one could use  as part of an answer to your question:   From Chapter 43, "...Only Nothing can enter into no-space..."  (for myself I'd change the term Nothing into no-thing)

 

 

How about in the case of Jesus, who is the closest I think we have to a verified 'immortal'. He seems on one level to be a distinct entity, he appeared to people, he said 'you cannot enter heaven except via him', so there is some distinct sense of himself he had in mind, is he beyond duality? 

[Bindi]

20 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

to refer to the book Taoist Yoga alchemy and immortality - the left eye is "positive spirit" (yang shen) but the left eye is also Wood as the Liver, as the Moon, or yin qi. The right eye is "negative spirit" as in yin shen but is also metal as in lung as the sun, or yang qi.

 

So ONLY the eyes are positive while the rest of the body is negative. But to have "pointed concentration" means to rotate the eyes or to "cross" the eyes by staring at the tip of the nose - thereby turning the yin and yang shen around and also turning around the yin and yang qi.

So then once the yin qi or Mercury is "replenished"  - this is done through meditation because with the eyes open then the Heart (Sun) and Moon (lower tan t'ien) are disconnected as the external Sun and Moon (left and right eye) shen are not turned around - and so through meditation their is purification via the Fire-Shen as positive spirit or Heaven.

 

The Yuan Qi activates the Yuan Shen as the light of no light - but the Yuan Qi is not activated until the yin qi is replenished by extracting the yang qi. So you need purification to stop losing the yang qi and then you "cleanse" the yang qi via the kidneys and "purify" via the heart. So the yang qi has "substance" via the cerebrospinal fluid (lecithin). So it creates the ambrosia as the immortal seed that then builds up the yuan qi.

 

Then as the yuan qi builds up then the Golden Nectar develops as the Light of Vitality - the light from the yang qi building up even further by purification into yuan qi. So you first have to restore the yin qi and then you have to purify the yang qi to turn all the yin qi into yuan qi internally - along with the yang qi into yuan qi.

 

So then the Golden Immortal Body is both the Positive Spirit (Heaven) and the Positive Vitality (Earth) such that you have now successfully merged the Yang Qi of the yin shen with the Yin qi of the Yang Shen - and so the third eye then collects all the yuan qi of the body, vaporizes the body or "evaporates it" as Golden Light yang shen that "shines" through the pores of the body - and now you have your immortal golden body. But you just destroyed your physical body in order to make the immortal body. Also you destroyed your ego - since there is no longer any yin qi (which is left brain dominant consciousness for humans).

 

And so then the Yuan Qi "decides" When the Yang Shen will manifest - and only other people purified enough will be able to see the Yang Shen - since if a person does not have enough yin qi stored up and replenished - then they will not be able to see the yang shen, or other immortals that have yang qi combined with the shen.

 

So the process remains an eternal process of complementary opposites - and the Yuan Qi is the 5th dimension that is beyond spacetime - so it is "instantaneous" - meaning that light of the Yuan Shen does not experience time nor space. But the energy of light as the Yuan Qi is spacetime itself that is relativistic - and so it has eternal motion. So the T'ai Chi IS the Wuji. There is no "static" non-movement. There is always "doing" in the Non-movement, as the secret of the Yuan Shen.

 

... the trigrams of the Book of Changes are used to illustrate how the alchemical process consists in extracting the pre-cosmic True Yin (zhenyin) and True Yang (zhenyang) from Yang and Yin as they appear in the cosmos. True Yin is represented by the broken line () within Li ☲, and True Yang is represented by the solid line () within Kan ☵. When the inner lines of these trigrams are exchanged with one another, they reconstitute Qian ☰ and Kun ☷, the trigrams that represent Original Yang and Original Yin, respectively. Then the conjunction of Qian and Kun produces the Golden Elixir, which is equivalent to the original state of Oneness.

 

I'm not sure what the Golden Elixir is exactly (maybe Yuan Qi?), and certainly I don't understand how the Elixir relates to Oneness, but given this threads topic it does seem quite relevant. 

[Apech]

48 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Well that's kind of interesting in itself, because they should all be describing the same thing logically, and if their definitions and understanding differs so much, then they're not describing what is actually true, but just their own version of something beyond the physical body. 

 

 

How about in the case of Jesus, who is the closest I think we have to a verified 'immortal'. He seems on one level to be a distinct entity, he appeared to people, he said 'you cannot enter heaven except via him', so there is some distinct sense of himself he had in mind, is he beyond duality? 

 

 

All the systems which I am aware of, all the good ones anyway say that the absolute is ineffable, mysterious and beyond words/concepts.  What they try to do though is provide a framework for working towards realisation of ... whatever you want call it.  I realise that doesn't exactly address your point but it is a starting point.  In the same way Jesus says you only come to the Father through me - meaning the Logos provides the way to the Absolute.  Beyond that the teachings are culturally embedded to be helpful to people who are karmically linked to a particular way of seeing things - hence the variety of schools/sects/systems.

 

They do borrow heavily from each other - particularly Yoga/Tantra from Daoist Internal Alchemy - where they take some principles from the Daoist approach and put it in the context of Indian Sramana and Brahmanical systems.  It is very hard to untangle how what we have available today has come to be as it is.

 

 

[Marblehead]

The Absolute includes a bunch of stuff.

 

[dawei]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

But space and time were born at exactly the same moment.  So it takes time for no thing to enter no space.

 

But then, I have never found a reason to apply this concept in real life so it doesn't seem to be very important.

 

 

I agree with the first point but then we get caught in a linear trap, maybe... so as then likely the formless came first... then form arises, etc...   Or is that just our dualistic mind creating the sequence.  

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

I agree with the first point but then we get caught in a linear trap, maybe... so as then likely the formless came first... then form arises, etc...   Or is that just our dualistic mind creating the sequence.  

I know this might sound a little Buddhist but "formless" has always existed.  Then the Big Bang (from formless) giving rise to form and space/time (or maybe space/time and then form).

 

But yes, there were sequences, the processes of Dao - Tzujan.

 

[dawei]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

How about in the case of Jesus, who is the closest I think we have to a verified 'immortal'. He seems on one level to be a distinct entity, he appeared to people, he said 'you cannot enter heaven except via him', so there is some distinct sense of himself he had in mind, is he beyond duality? 

 

I know you asked another but I like the question... so want to comment.

 

IMO, he is part of duality as a person and spirit.   But there is a footnote:  This is the dualistic mind commenting. 

 

TO me, non-duality is when there ceases to be duality or dualistic methods and ways.  So there is a shadow of it available in life. It is more a taste of the primordial.   When everything converges, and there is One matrix to move along, that is another example.   There you can find Jesus as he is you with no separation.  When you face him, you feel the separation though because his (or any deities) presence will reveal our blocks and issues to non-duality... thus that is due to our inability to hold non-duality for a sustained time.  

[dawei]

6 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I know this might sound a little Buddhist but "formless" has always existed.  Then the Big Bang (from formless) giving rise to form and space/time (or maybe space/time and then form).

 

But yes, there were sequences, the processes of Dao - Tzujan.

 

 

I disagree but may be going off topic.  Dao is not formless really.  It is beyond even that on some level.  JMO.

 

[Marblehead]

I will sit down and shut up.  This is still a very good discussion thread.

 

[3bob]

who has verified Jesus as immortal other than certain individuals for themselves and which btw. they can not prove to anybody in this world per this worlds methods?   (thus to some Jesus is nothing more than a rumor or a fairy tale although not to me)

 

Christianity is basically a dualistic teaching, including most of New Testament although there is some alluding to of oneness, for instance and along the lines of my Father and I are One. (to paraphrase)  Also in Christianity per its Bible many of the "eastern" teachings are spelled out as being blasphemy so how one integrates and correlates across such chasms is at least problematic to me!  In comparison the  ultimate  goal of the teachings of the Upanishads (and most Vedic interpretations) is not heaven but the Self or Brahman, although there is a lot of mention of Brahma-loka.  So Bindi I'd say there are no hard and fast rules about the major ways or religions pointing to the same thing like you mentioned even though such would make related  matters for mankind simpler. 

[3bob]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

I will sit down and shut up.  This is still a very good discussion thread.

 

 

hmm, no need  for that, roll the dice or marbles as you feel prompted to do so.

[voidisyinyang]

4 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

... the trigrams of the Book of Changes are used to illustrate how the alchemical process consists in extracting the pre-cosmic True Yin (zhenyin) and True Yang (zhenyang) from Yang and Yin as they appear in the cosmos. True Yin is represented by the broken line () within Li ☲, and True Yang is represented by the solid line () within Kan ☵. When the inner lines of these trigrams are exchanged with one another, they reconstitute Qian ☰ and Kun ☷, the trigrams that represent Original Yang and Original Yin, respectively. Then the conjunction of Qian and Kun produces the Golden Elixir, which is equivalent to the original state of Oneness.

 

I'm not sure what the Golden Elixir is exactly (maybe Yuan Qi?), and certainly I don't understand how the Elixir relates to Oneness, but given this threads topic it does seem quite relevant. 

 

Exactly! What I'm referring to is called the Reverted Elixir. Double Reversal - the Neidan books really have to be studied to reveal this secret. So it's not just that the Water has to go "up" and the Fire go "down" - but the Water then has to go back "down" the front - as ambrosia.

I have several blog posts on this giving the details from the Neidan books.

I posted it on the forum here also.

http://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2018/08/water-that-never-rusts-metal-from-water.html

 

http://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2018/08/so-double-reversal-means-metal-as-lungs.html

http://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2018/08/reversing-5-elements-and-double.html

http://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2018/07/on-golden-nectar-dragonmercury-is-both.html

http://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2018/07/extracting-lead-to-replenish-mercury.html

 

http://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2018/07/nourishing-essence-of-life-eva-wong.html

http://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2018/07/the-secret-sweet-dew-swallowed.html

http://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2018/07/part-5-small-universe-or-mco-meditation.html

http://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2018/07/part-4-back-to-needham.html

http://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2018/07/part-3-needham-and-double-reversal.html

http://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2018/07/more-on-true-lead-and-true-mercury-as.html

http://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2018/07/pregadios-awakening-to-reality.html

 

[Bindi]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

All the systems which I am aware of, all the good ones anyway say that the absolute is ineffable, mysterious and beyond words/concepts. 

 

If we can accept yin and yang as the material expression of the 'absolute' in us (and I do), and work on understanding these relatively simple forces within ourselves and thus uniting them, this should ideally take us to the very edge of the ineffable, and from this vantage point we might just be able to examine the ineffable in the light of full consciousness.

 

A system which pre-packages the absolute as ineffable might discourage any effort to understand it, which seems similar to me to believing the distant ocean falls over a cliff and thus discouraging sailors from going anywhere near what is accepted as the edge of the known universe. 

 

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

What they try to do though is provide a framework for working towards realisation of ... whatever you want call it.  I realise that doesn't exactly address your point but it is a starting point.  In the same way Jesus says you only come to the Father through me - meaning the Logos provides the way to the Absolute. 

 

The duality or non-duality of Jesus as immortal spirit hasn't been agreed on yet, and makes all the difference whether he is being used as a divine principle or whether there is some spooky dualistic divinity going on. 

 

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Beyond that the teachings are culturally embedded to be helpful to people who are karmically linked to a particular way of seeing things - hence the variety of schools/sects/systems.

 

They do borrow heavily from each other - particularly Yoga/Tantra from Daoist Internal Alchemy - where they take some principles from the Daoist approach and put it in the context of Indian Sramana and Brahmanical systems.  It is very hard to untangle how what we have available today has come to be as it is.

 

 

 

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, 3bob said:

who has verified Jesus as immortal other than certain individuals for themselves and which btw. they can not prove to anybody in this world per this worlds methods?   (thus to some Jesus is nothing more than a rumor or a fairy tale although not to me)

 

I'm thinking of the testimonies in Acts as the only proof available to us of the reality of an immortal spirit, though of course this is tenuous proof at best. Still it is the best example available to us of the possibility of an immortal spirit that I know of. 

 

3 hours ago, 3bob said:

Christianity is basically a dualistic teaching, including most of New Testament although there is some alluding to of oneness, for instance and along the lines of my Father and I are One. (to paraphrase)

 

Vive la dualité  

 

3 hours ago, 3bob said:

 

  Also in Christianity per its Bible many of the "eastern" teachings are spelled out as being blasphemy so how one integrates and correlates across such chasms is at least problematic to me! 

 

If he was the only one to actually achieve an immortal spirit, that would set him apart from the rest maybe? 

 

3 hours ago, 3bob said:

 

In comparison the  ultimate  goal of the teachings of the Upanishads (and most Vedic interpretations) is not heaven but the Self or Brahman, although there is a lot of mention of Brahma-loka.  So Bindi I'd say there are no hard and fast rules about the major ways or religions pointing to the same thing like you mentioned even though such would make related  matters for mankind simpler. 

 

 

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

If we can accept yin and yang as the material expression of the 'absolute' in us (and I do), and work on understanding these relatively simple forces within ourselves and thus uniting them, this should ideally take us to the very edge of the ineffable, and from this vantage point we might just be able to examine the ineffable in the light of full consciousness.

 

A system which pre-packages the absolute as ineffable might discourage any effort to understand it, which seems similar to me to believing the distant ocean falls over a cliff and thus discouraging sailors from going anywhere near what is accepted as the edge of the known universe. 

 

 

The duality or non-duality of Jesus as immortal spirit hasn't been agreed on yet, and makes all the difference whether he is being used as a divine principle or whether there is some spooky dualistic divinity going on. 

 

 

 

 'the Dao that can be spoken of is not the eternal/constant Dao'

 

It's not pre-packaging at all but a statement of truth.  It is nothing to do with discouraging sailors and wotnot - it is saying the truth about reality is beyond words and non-conceptual.  And thank goodness for that too .  I don't agree that yin and yang are 'material' but I won't split hairs - otherwise yes uniting the two is the key - in Buddhism they say the union of emptiness and luminosity and so on.

 

jesus?  Three persons in one? Is this non-duality? Could be.

 

 

[Bindi]

9 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 'the Dao that can be spoken of is not the eternal/constant Dao'

 

Alchemists have never been so limited in their hopes and expectations (thank God ):

 

Spiritual immortal – Shen Xian ( 神仙 )
Spiritual fetus - Yanshen goes out of a human head (is born in the spiritual world) but it still needs to be educated and developed. That looks like a mother (body) takes care of her child (spirit). After its strengthening and implementation of this phase this spirit can move anywhere in the Universe - primarily to understand its structure and subsequently for execution of spiritual work. It’s impossible to kill it, it’s immortal. But there’s still a body which requires attention. At a certain stage of its development the yang spirit Yanshen gets the opportunity to divide, reproducing the same doubles. Their number gradually can grow to a huge multiple. They can do various spiritual works in different worlds. That is when the complete understanding of the Universe laws and the sense of the further development come. If a practitioner wishes, this phase can be stretched to a very long time. For example, it is possible to sit in a cave for a millennium and to practice in spiritual bodies.

 

9 minutes ago, Apech said:

It's not pre-packaging at all but a statement of truth.  It is nothing to do with discouraging sailors and wotnot - it is saying the truth about reality is beyond words and non-conceptual.  And thank goodness for that too .  I don't agree that yin and yang are 'material' but I won't split hairs - otherwise yes uniting the two is the key - in Buddhism they say the union of emptiness and luminosity and so on.

 

Uniting male/female and yin/yang within oneself might look very different to uniting emptiness and luminosity though. 

 

9 minutes ago, Apech said:

jesus?  Three persons in one? Is this non-duality? Could be.

 

 

 

"I am the way to the Father" - that's got to be duality? 

[Apech]

56 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Alchemists have never been so limited in their hopes and expectations (thank God ):

 

Spiritual immortal – Shen Xian ( 神仙 )
Spiritual fetus - Yanshen goes out of a human head (is born in the spiritual world) but it still needs to be educated and developed. That looks like a mother (body) takes care of her child (spirit). After its strengthening and implementation of this phase this spirit can move anywhere in the Universe - primarily to understand its structure and subsequently for execution of spiritual work. It’s impossible to kill it, it’s immortal. But there’s still a body which requires attention. At a certain stage of its development the yang spirit Yanshen gets the opportunity to divide, reproducing the same doubles. Their number gradually can grow to a huge multiple. They can do various spiritual works in different worlds. That is when the complete understanding of the Universe laws and the sense of the further development come. If a practitioner wishes, this phase can be stretched to a very long time. For example, it is possible to sit in a cave for a millennium and to practice in spiritual bodies.

 

 

Uniting male/female and yin/yang within oneself might look very different to uniting emptiness and luminosity though. 

 

 

"I am the way to the Father" - that's got to be duality? 

 

 

Do you think Daoist Alchemy exists independently from Daoism?  

 

TTC Ch. 1

 

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
The named is the mother of ten thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name;
     this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery.

 

Uniting emptiness and luminosity:

 

 

... very different from uniting male and female????

 

The way to the Father is not duality if he and the father are one ????

[doc benway]

A brief detour...

 

This thread has helped me to better appreciate the value of faith in spiritual disciplines.

When something does not make sense or work for me in a particular system, I can approach it as if:

- the system is wrong, or

- my understanding of the system is imperfect.

 

If I am able to have the latter relationship, I will have the openness to learn and grow within that system. If the former, I close myself off and the system will not be supportive of spiritual growth. If I recognize this and move on to a different system that is a better fit, that growth can continue. 

 

I think it's important to work with a system that inspires the confidence, the faith, to question my own understanding rather than the validity of the system. This is not to say that belief is necessary. That confidence is only genuine and transcends belief when I actually put in the time, do the practice, and see if there are positive changes in my life. I think that confidence is more important than the specific system, as no system is right or wrong in an absolute manner but rather in relationship to the practitioner's needs and proclivities.

 

I brought up in another thread the concept of superior, middling, and inferior practitioners. Similarly, that is not an absolute but simply applies to the relationship between the practitioner and the practice. If I can have that openness of faith in the system, there is the potential for me to be a superior practitioner of that system - when the going gets tough, rather than question the system, I question my understanding of it. I remain open to the possibility of developing a better understanding some day which is different than blind belief. Continued study and practice will eventually lead to a deeper and more nuanced understanding. 

 

Just some thoughts that came up this morning.

 

Peace

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

 

Do you think Daoist Alchemy exists independently from Daoism?  

 

TTC Ch. 1

 

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
The named is the mother of ten thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name;
     this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery.

 

Uniting emptiness and luminosity:

 

 

... very different from uniting male and female????

 

The way to the Father is not duality if he and the father are one ????

 

I don't take too much notice of the TTC, it does seem to be at odds with alchemy quite a lot of the time, and it certainly doesn't resonate with me. A Daoist seems inclined to take things as they are, promotes wuwei, and looks for balance and the Dao in nature, while an alchemist actively works to instigate a spiritual process, promotes youwei and works via male/female and yin/yang principles within themselves towards a very specific end goal, all of which seems to make Daoists shake their heads somewhat dismissively. 

 

Male and female does work for me as a fundamental principle, we probably agree on that, but I don't know how emptiness and luminosity are female and male, it doesn't make sense to me, and it doesn't relate to yin and yang as far as I understand them. 

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by Bindi

[Apech]

4 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

I don't take too much notice of the TTC, it does seem to be at odds with alchemy quite a lot of the time, and it certainly doesn't resonate with me. A Daoist seems inclined to take things as they are, promotes wuwei, and looks for blance and the Dao in nature, while an alchemist actively works to instigate a spiritual process, promotes youwei and works via male/female and yin/yang principles towards a very specific end goal which is in itself very un-Daoist. 

 

Male and female does work for me as a fundamental principle, we probably agree on that, but I don't know how emptiness and luminosity are female and male, it doesn't make sense to me, and it doesn't relate to yin and yang as far as I understand them. 

 

 

 

 

I think this may be a problem!  But I'll let the Daoists on here answer you.  But just to say that Internal Alchemy is usually understood to be both Xing and Ming, so you may be missing 50%.

 

I think the male/female, yin/yang, emptiness/lumonisty may be for another thread.  Big subject.

[Bindi]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I think this may be a problem!  But I'll let the Daoists on here answer you.  But just to say that Internal Alchemy is usually understood to be both Xing and Ming, so you may be missing 50%.

 

First there is youwei, then there is wuwei. I find these concepts easier to understand than Xing and Ming. I didn't mention wuwei after youwei cos wuwei already gets way too much press around here. 

 

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I think the male/female, yin/yang, emptiness/lumonisty may be for another thread.  Big subject.

 

It would be worth starting that thread, since it is the basis of these systems that are being discussed, 

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

First there is youwei, then there is wuwei. I find these concepts easier to understand than Xing and Ming. I didn't mention wuwei after youwei cos wuwei already gets way too much press around here. 

 

 

It would be worth starting that thread, since it is the basis of these systems that are being discussed, 

 

 

Could you give me a detailed explanation of the terms 'youwei' and 'wuwei'.?