Looking for something real

[Ilovecoffee]

1 hour ago, thelerner said:

Can't help but think that the 'best you can do' is present 'evidence' of your groups abilities.  Showing multiple, modern practitioners performing might well be more persuasive then very old videos of a foreigner.   

 

Undoubtedly it wouldn't persuade everyone, but it would persuade some.   Kind of feels like a cop out. 

 

 

You realize I myself have telekinesis, and pyrokinesis and speed reading skills, but I can't show them to anyone because some doubt JC's skills.  If everyone believed in him, then I'd show them off, but uh, I won't because of JC.  Plus making a video is so much work these days.   Does that inspire much confidence  in my abilities?

 

 

addon> I don't think this would be an issue if it weren't for basing your arguments that 'you're real' on JC videos.

 

 

 

 

 

All we can do is present the best evidence we have and encourage others to see for themselves.  

[wandelaar]

Some time ago I proposed to do an experiment here on The Dao Bums to prove the existence of paranormal phenomena, and almost nobody wanted to participate. What I did get in the topic were huge amounts of distracting posts having nothing to do with the proposed experiment. But I am still willing to invest some time and energy in such an experiment and when the experiment would give positive results that would surely make me less skeptical about the existence of those phenomena.

 

Let me know when somebody is interested in developing ideas for such an experiment and/or in participating in the experiment itself.

[Jeff]

Just now, wandelaar said:

Some time ago I proposed to do an experiment here on The Dao Bums to prove the existence of paranormal phenomena, and almost nobody wanted to participate. What I did get in the topic were huge amounts of distracting posts having nothing to do with the proposed experiment. But I am still willing to invest some time and energy in such an experiment and when the experiment would give positive results that would surely make me less skeptical about the existence of those phenomena.

 

Let me know when somebody is interested in developing ideas for such an experiment and/or in participating in the experiment itself.

 

Sure.  I would be interested.

[wandelaar]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

Sure.  I would be interested.

 

Thank you. I will open a new topic where we can develop ideas for a parapsychological experiment that can be done here on The Dao Bums.

[wandelaar]

For those interested in setting up a parapsychological experiment I have started this topic:

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by wandelaar

[kyoji]

On 2018-08-23 at 4:14 AM, wandelaar said:

@ MopaiWarlord

 

The Buddhists are well aware of the danger of considering everything equally unreal and thus getting lost in a world of fantasy instead of understanding the true nature of the world! That's why they developed the doctrine of the two truths: absolute and conventional truth. Using the unrealness of the conventional world as a license to believe or do anything you like will land you in big trouble. The conventional truth of our everyday world has to be taken just as serious as the absolute truth of its unrealness.

This is so important, and seems to be a trap that a lot of new agers fall into..

[Menezes]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Hi Menezes,

 

Could you tell us more about the kinds of results you`re looking for?  Maybe it`s just stupid good luck, but pretty much everything I`ve tried has seemed real to me.  There are so many things a person could hope for from their spiritual practice: relaxation, the healing of a specific condition, gaining healing abilities to help others, happiness, the development of compassion and other positive virtues, a pathway towards ultimate connection with the ground of reality (I just made that one up `cause it sounded good).  What is it you want?

 

 

 

Hey Luke. Sure I can.

I am interested in any kind of results that you can tell for sure are a consequence of a chikung/neikung trainig. For instance... I've had a tai chi chuan teacher in 2015 who (apparently) mastered a specific lineage of chikung. He demonstrated his abilities to us which were basically superior resistence and strength. He also looks like he's in his thirties when in truth he is 50+ years old, plus some other minor things... anyway, I left him because the extent of his abilities were weak compared to some other abilities attainable through training in other lineages... besides, he had to meditate for a while before he could push his chi out of his body to show us his skills... that hardly sounds like something useful in a real fight. Regardless, it was a very good example of what I mean when I say "something real".

But back to your question... I'm not only interested in results regarding strength and resistance... it's just anything beyond "feeling good" or "being healthier" which albeit being important things nonetheless are too hard to tell for sure whether it resulted from a specific kind of training or a multiplicity of other factors, you see?

There are some people I know that trained for years (although I can't tell how diligent they were in their training) that still hasn't attained nothing... it's sad, really... if they had not been to hasty to trust information they see online they could've been practicing something legit and already have attained some real results... what I fear the most is practicing something that won't get me results and just waste my time and efforts, this is why I say I'm looking for something "real" and this is also the reason why I'm not too eager to try anything I see on the internet. As I've said... I already practice some kind of training but just as I've found information about it on the internet I believe there might be other useful information about other schools or lineages that I'm still not aware of, hence the reason why I joined this forum.

For instance... I've heard that a Gary Clyman is not so hard to find and train with (even though he charges a lot relatively) and he also seems to be okay with demonstrating his abilities first-hand... I don't plan to make a trip to the US anytime soon but this is an example of useful information... I mean... who knows the day of tomorrow, right?

Anyway I feel like I said more than I should've. If there are still questions please don't hesitate to ask and thank you for your comment.

[thelerner]

1 hour ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

All we can do is present the best evidence we have and encourage others to see for themselves.  

and the 'evidence' you have is the old JC videos?   ok

[Ilovecoffee]

4 hours ago, thelerner said:

and the 'evidence' you have is the old JC videos?   ok

 

If a team of scientists and medical doctors stripping a level 20+ mopai master to his undershirt and underwear, checking him for metal with a metal detector and getting a demonstration at a random location they chose wouldn't convince you then even Jim McMillan a level 2b student if he were still alive would have no chance.  That is the point I am making.  Nothing here is hidden, people who seriously pursue this can see as plain as day the reality and legitimacy of the practice.  No faith in anyone or anything,  just your own direct observation.

[thelerner]

 

15 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

If a team of scientists and medical doctors stripping a level 20+ mopai master to his undershirt and underwear, checking him for metal with a metal detector and getting a demonstration at a random location they chose wouldn't convince you then even Jim McMillan a level 2b student if he were still alive would have no chance.  That is the point I am making.  Nothing here is hidden, people who seriously pursue this can see as plain as day the reality and legitimacy of the practice.  No faith in anyone or anything,  just your own direct observation.

You're wrong,  modern videos with people you can answer questions would be powerful evidence for many.  As the decades go by you might need more then old videos from people who are incognito or dead.  Sooner or later people will ask if you show what its done for you.  And no amount of trolling sites, claiming yours the only 'Real' art is going to prove persuasive. 

 

Every cultivation art says if you  practice with integrity you'll see results for yourself, no faith needed, just practice. 

 

If there was a.. never mind.  You're right, its all about the JC videos. 

Edited August 24, 2018 by thelerner

[Ilovecoffee]

Just now, thelerner said:

 

You're wrong,  modern videos with people you can ask questions would be a powerful evidence for many.  As the decades go by you might need more then old videos from people who are incognito or dead.  Sooner or later people will ask if you show what its done for you.  And no amount of trolling sites, claiming yours the only 'Real' art is going to prove persuasive. 

 

If there was a.. never mind.  You're right, its all about the JC videos. 

 

All we can do is provide the best evidence we have and hope some are serious enough to do the legwork and prove it to themselves.

[Earl Grey]

On 8/25/2018 at 3:01 AM, Menezes said:

 

Hey Luke. Sure I can.

I am interested in any kind of results that you can tell for sure are a consequence of a chikung/neikung trainig. For instance... I've had a tai chi chuan teacher in 2015 who (apparently) mastered a specific lineage of chikung. He demonstrated his abilities to us which were basically superior resistence and strength. He also looks like he's in his thirties when in truth he is 50+ years old, plus some other minor things... anyway, I left him because the extent of his abilities were weak compared to some other abilities attainable through training in other lineages... besides, he had to meditate for a while before he could push his chi out of his body to show us his skills... that hardly sounds like something useful in a real fight. Regardless, it was a very good example of what I mean when I say "something real".

But back to your question... I'm not only interested in results regarding strength and resistance... it's just anything beyond "feeling good" or "being healthier" which albeit being important things nonetheless are too hard to tell for sure whether it resulted from a specific kind of training or a multiplicity of other factors, you see?

There are some people I know that trained for years (although I can't tell how diligent they were in their training) that still hasn't attained nothing... it's sad, really... if they had not been to hasty to trust information they see online they could've been practicing something legit and already have attained some real results... what I fear the most is practicing something that won't get me results and just waste my time and efforts, this is why I say I'm looking for something "real" and this is also the reason why I'm not too eager to try anything I see on the internet. As I've said... I already practice some kind of training but just as I've found information about it on the internet I believe there might be other useful information about other schools or lineages that I'm still not aware of, hence the reason why I joined this forum.

For instance... I've heard that a Gary Clyman is not so hard to find and train with (even though he charges a lot relatively) and he also seems to be okay with demonstrating his abilities first-hand... I don't plan to make a trip to the US anytime soon but this is an example of useful information... I mean... who knows the day of tomorrow, right?

Anyway I feel like I said more than I should've. If there are still questions please don't hesitate to ask and thank you for your comment.

 

Okay, if you're looking for martial power, I know a couple teachers for Tai Chi in Pittsburgh, one being my teacher Eric Randolph, and  the other is Glenn Hairston, who happens to be Sifu Eric's teacher too. My Yi Quan/Liuhebafa teacher has engaged with him before and says they both have power, while many people like your prior Sifu might have technique and some qigong, but probably no power, especially if he has to meditate first. They are available through Skype.  I am no longer associated with Eric Randolph.

 

If you're looking for healing and/or transformative stuff, I ask if you want a Sifu and to build a relationship with the community or if you just want a technique and need no further interaction with the Sifu. For the former, go to Terry Dunn and train Flying Phoenix or Bok Fu Pai or Eight Sections of Energy Combined with him, and he teaches many people overseas too. If you want the latter, contact my teacher John Dolic in Sydney, Australia, who can teach anything from Sleeping Qigong to Spontaneous Five Animals, or Fragrant Qigong, and also knows both Shaolin Long Fist and Baguazhang.

 

Let me know how I can assist and what country you are in because I also can introduce you to people in Indonesia, Singapore, and the Philippines, Canada, or Germany. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Earl Grey

[wandelaar]

8 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

I can't prove it, as I personally can only share stories of my own experience and the teachers I have and adepts we know. Normally, I don't go carrying a video camera nor do I think to record them on my phone camera because they are filled with videos of my dog, which are a lot more useful. You're more than welcome to message me or Skype me and trade stories of the paranormal though. 

 

Thank you, but a lack of stories about the paranormal isn't the problem. There are lots of them even on this site, and certainly in the world at large. The problem with those stories is that they are mostly told by people who wrongly believe that they can trust their own experience and interpretation of the facts without first studying the many ways in which one can be fooled by frauds and even by ones own naive and unsophisticated ways of viewing and interpreting the world. Parapsychology has gradually moved on from collecting stories to controlled experiments precisely because of the near impossibility of verifying the kind of stories told about the paranormal.

 

Now much of this stubborn refusal to consider the fallibility of our naive ways of viewing the world is a form of wilful ignorance. Ilovecoffee is a good example. The video doesn't rule out fraud, and I have explained many times over why that is so. But it doesn't have any effect. His will to believe is too strong to seriously consider the possibility that nothing paranormal occurred. And unhappily in our post-modern times this form of self-deception is even applauded by New Agers who think it's enough when you "resonate" with a particular claim or theory to accept it as your "personal truth" and consequently ignore any factual criticism someone might give. After all: it's you personal truth. 

 

Parapsychology is more that a century old now, and one has learned much particularly about how to set up decent experiments to rule out fraud and self-deception. Strangely most people don't take any notice of it, and consequently keep repeating the same old errors over and over again that parapsychology has had to overcome the hard way. Well - that's the way it goes...

Edited August 25, 2018 by wandelaar

[Ilovecoffee]

 

5 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

Thank you, but a lack of stories about the paranormal isn't the problem. There are lots of them even on this site, and certainly in the world at large. The problem with those stories is that they are mostly told by people who wrongly believe that they can trust their own experience and interpretation of the facts without first studying the many ways in which one can be fooled by frauds and even by ones own naive and unsophisticated ways of viewing and interpreting the world. Parapsychology has gradually moved on from collecting stories to controlled experiments precisely because of the near impossibility of verifying the kind of stories told about the paranormal.

 

Now much of this stubborn refusal to consider the fallibility of our naive ways of viewing the world is a form of wilful ignorance. Ilovecoffee is a good example. The video doesn't rule out fraud, and I have explained many times over why that is so. But it doesn't have any effect. His will to believe is too strong to seriously consider the possibility that nothing paranormal occurred. And unhappily in our post-modern times this form of self-deception is even applauded by New Agers who think it's enough when you "resonate" with a particular claim or theory to accept it as your "personal truth" and consequently ignore any factual criticism someone might give. After all: it's you personal truth. 

 

Parapsychology is more that a century old now, and one has learned much particularly about how to set up decent experiments to rule out fraud and self-deception. Strangely most people don't take any notice of it, and consequently keep repeating the same old errors over and over again that parapsychology has had to overcome the hard way. Well - that's the way it goes...

 

"people who wrongly believe that they can trust their own experience"

 

Ultimately we are creatures of our senses.  What we personally see and experience along with objective video evidence to record the event exactly as it occurred is the best we can do.

 

"one can be fooled by frauds"

 

When it's only you and the camera rolling, and you are reviewing footage of an event, it will reassure you a bit that you aren't hallucinating.
 

"stubborn refusal to consider the fallibility of our naive ways of viewing the world is a form of wilful ignorance."

 

"Ilovecoffee is a good example. The video doesn't rule out fraud, and I have explained many times over why that is so. But it doesn't have any effect.

 

Nothing ultimately rules out fraud. 100 scientists and medical doctors, x-rays and whatever else you want to throw at it, and someone somewhere could still argue John was a fraud because one of the researchers was in on it. We can only do the best we can do, and present the best objective video evidence we have.  I believe the researchers gave it their best effort to rule out fraud, but if you believe they missed something that certainly is your prerogative. 

 

His will to believe is too strong to seriously consider the possibility that nothing paranormal occurred."

 

Nothing paranormal occurred.  There is no such thing as the supernatural, nothing above or beyond what is natural.  There is nothing paranormal, above, or beyond what is normal. There is only the natural and normal universe.  Anything that exists or occurs here is purely natural and normal.  That does not mean we understand reality any better than they did in the 1400s when it would have been considered supernatural or paranormal witchcraft to talk over distances via radio-waves.  We still have much to learn.

 

"this form of self-deception is even applauded by New Agers who think it's enough when you "resonate" with a particular claim or theory to accept it as your "personal truth" and consequently ignore any factual criticism someone might give. After all: it's you personal truth. "

 

No, you have us pegged wrong wandelaar.  We are not hoping to encourage people to practice mopai because it resonates with them as a personal truth.  We are hoping to encourage people to examine the objective video evidence, with scientists and medical doctors doing their best to rule out fraud, and then for these people to investigate the practice first hand.  If they stay the course what they will experience is as real as anything else a person can experience.  It is not based on faith or personal truth, or it resonating with you, but rather on directly observed events that occur during the training itself.

Edited August 25, 2018 by Ilovecoffee