Looking for something real

[Menezes]

Hello everyone.

I'm not entirely new to the forum. I've read something here and there about this and that. I'm also a practitioner of a certain type of meditation for quite some time. I decided to join the forum as a member (albeit a bit reluctant from doing it because of some things I've seen here) because, well... it is as a great philosopher once said: "the bee obtains honey even from poisonous flowers", so I believe I might find people willing to share valuable information.

As the title says, I'm looking for something real. The reason why I say that is because I have noticed a lot of people talking about things they only heard or read somewhere and are quickly to take such information as an indisputable truth. It is of my opinion that reading a book is not enough since the book is only a information, the first step -- the real work has to be done personally. The theoretical part is indispensable but theory without practice is illusion as practice without theory is blind and stupid.

I'm not eager to try everything I see on the internet, but I am open to new possibilities. I believe this should go without saying but most stuff we see online about this "supernatural" universe is fake.

In short, my reason for being here is to have contact with people who've had real results from their training and people who have very well based opinions on neikung/chikung.

This is it! Thanks for reading.

[Fa Xin]

Hello, Menezes, and welcome.

 

Your membership is approved and we're happy you found your way to us. We look forward to accompanying you on some of the way that you still have to go.

 

Please take the time to read the post pinned at the top of this Welcome page and take a look at the forum Terms and Rules.   This covers all you need to know when getting started.

 

For the first week you will be restricted to ten posts per day but after that you can post as much as you like. Also, until you’ve posted fifteen times in the forums, you’ll be a “Junior Bum” with somewhat restricted access and will be allowed only two private messages per day.

 

Good luck in your pursuits and best wishes to you,

 

Fa Xin and the TDB team

 

Hello Menezes,

 

Welcome to our "poisonous flower"  Most of us have grown a tolerance to the poison to the point where we need it to survive.  Join us....JOIN USSS *zombie voice*

 

You are welcome to jump right in to the ongoing discussions, revive an older thread, start a new thread of your own, or start a discussion in the "Newcomer Corner" sub-forum to expand on your introduction or ask general questions to help you get started.

 

May you enjoy your time here.

 

Fa Xin

[Marblehead]

Hi Menezes.  Welcome.

 

Looking for something real?  Well, for starters, my chair is real.

 

[wandelaar]

Everyday life is real to. And finding ways of living ones life in a satisfying manner is half of what philosophical Taoism is about, if not all.

 

Paranormal abilities (if such a thing exists) will only change ones boundary between what one can and cannot do, but the real problem is dealing with the fact that we are powerless as regards the fundamental workings of the Tao (laws of nature).

[Ilovecoffee]

On 8/19/2018 at 4:49 PM, Menezes said:

Hello everyone.

I'm not entirely new to the forum. I've read something here and there about this and that. I'm also a practitioner of a certain type of meditation for quite some time. I decided to join the forum as a member (albeit a bit reluctant from doing it because of some things I've seen here) because, well... it is as a great philosopher once said: "the bee obtains honey even from poisonous flowers", so I believe I might find people willing to share valuable information.

As the title says, I'm looking for something real. The reason why I say that is because I have noticed a lot of people talking about things they only heard or read somewhere and are quickly to take such information as an indisputable truth. It is of my opinion that reading a book is not enough since the book is only a information, the first step -- the real work has to be done personally. The theoretical part is indispensable but theory without practice is illusion as practice without theory is blind and stupid.

I'm not eager to try everything I see on the internet, but I am open to new possibilities. I believe this should go without saying but most stuff we see online about this "supernatural" universe is fake.

In short, my reason for being here is to have contact with people who've had real results from their training and people who have very well based opinions on neikung/chikung.

This is it! Thanks for reading.

 

Menezes,

 

Unfortunately it is not possible to have the discussion you are looking for openly on this forum without a fight breaking out.  If you are serious and want something real please email me and we can talk further. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by Ilovecoffee

[Earl Grey]

Welcome. It depends on what your definitions of what real are or how you define results. If you're like ilovecoffee and his group, they want videos with scientists testing for fakes and are happy with what they have. If you want to look at the Flying Phoenix thread, many people there are happy with the fruits of their practice and the healing and paranormal abilities. If you're more of a solo practitioner, there is the Lonemanpai community from Son of the Gods here. If you want to explore, depending on what you look for and who you talk to here, there are a few alleys to explore and discuss, argue, or engage with others. 

 

I am happy to discuss my own experiences and you can read my PPJ for that. I am happy to give you recommendations for other people if they suit your search. Understand I am not here to do anything else but respect Free Will because everyone's practice is the one we are meant to have regardless of criticisms others may give. 

 

Enjoy your time here. 

[Menezes]

Hey guys. Thanks for the replies.

Just to be clear, what I mean with "real" is just something that can give you results. I'm not disdaining the study of the theoretical part of how "energy" (in its many forms) works in our body, but it is of my opinion that that alone won't get you anywhere (the study itself without practice). I mean... there are many people who have trained for years and never attained anything... a man might practice all his life and not get anywhere if he is not practicing something real as I see it... and it is so hard to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to chikung or neikung. There's so much disinformation everywhere so I believe we must thread very carefully...

Basically, what I'm looking for is legitimate practices and legitimate students to share experiences and ideas.  

Edited August 23, 2018 by Menezes

[MopaiWarlord]

Well, can you feel energy? Is it real?

Can you think, are your thoughts real?

When you meet people are they real beings?

Can you prove it that you are not inside a virtual game or a dream right at this moment of time?

 

I have travelled spirit planes and learned a lot from non-human entities, they were much more real than anybody here and possesed tremendous knowledge and abilities about space time principles.

 

Searching for real in beginners often switches into a search for the depths of personal ignorance.

 

There is a sunyata buddha philosophy that denies the reality of a matter, of human, and life, of time, of death and all other things that are open for perception. What you can perceive cannot be real, is only a perception, a virtual information.

[wandelaar]

@ MopaiWarlord

 

The Buddhists are well aware of the danger of considering everything equally unreal and thus getting lost in a world of fantasy instead of understanding the true nature of the world! That's why they developed the doctrine of the two truths: absolute and conventional truth. Using the unrealness of the conventional world as a license to believe or do anything you like will land you in big trouble. The conventional truth of our everyday world has to be taken just as serious as the absolute truth of its unrealness.

[rideforever]

3 hours ago, Menezes said:

Basically, what I'm looking for is legitimate practices and legitimate students to share experiences and ideas.  

 

Well if you want health and energy, then there are many qigong practices that you can do.   
Difficult to go wrong as long as you practice daily.

[MopaiWarlord]

4 hours ago, Menezes said:

Hey guys. Thanks for the replies.

Just to be clear, what I mean with "real" is just something that can give you results. I'm not disdaining the study of the theoretical part of how "energy" (in its many forms) works in our body, but it is of my opinion that that alone won't get you anywhere (the study itself without practice). I mean... there are many people who have trained for years and never attained anything... a man might practice all his life and not get anywhere if he is not practicing something real as I see it... and it is so hard to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to chikung or neikung. There's so much disinformation everywhere so I believe we must thread very carefully...

Basically, what I'm looking for is legitimate practices and legitimate students to share experiences and ideas.  

 

Practice fitness, good diet, positive thinking and chi kung? Not getting anywhere? This is bullshit, 2 hours a day will get you into a better health, sharper senses and better quality of life. Dont listen to those who say no results, those are people who do not practice.

 

But if you want to go serious shit, gain abilities like pyrokinesis and levitation, become immortal. Just Don't.

People who create such threads have never ever in the history of our planet made it any far in cultivation.

Cultivation is not a joke. You will have to risk your life countless times, and there is a whooping 99.999% probability of death or significant internal damage in the process, that will halt your practice and lead to death from aging.

 

Chi Kung and yoga is harmless practice, so is meditation, but avoid neikung and forbidden arts at all costs if you want to live any longer.

Edited August 23, 2018 by MopaiWarlord

[ernobe]

Just being here and sharing with others what you've learned by meditating is part of your practice, it's a real result.  So far, you have not specified what you've found objectionable in here.  No doubt, as we become more familiar with your practice, this will be cleared up.

[Ilovecoffee]

11 hours ago, Menezes said:

Hey guys. Thanks for the replies.

Just to be clear, what I mean with "real" is just something that can give you results. I'm not disdaining the study of the theoretical part of how "energy" (in its many forms) works in our body, but it is of my opinion that that alone won't get you anywhere (the study itself without practice). I mean... there are many people who have trained for years and never attained anything... a man might practice all his life and not get anywhere if he is not practicing something real as I see it... and it is so hard to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to chikung or neikung. There's so much disinformation everywhere so I believe we must thread very carefully...

Basically, what I'm looking for is legitimate practices and legitimate students to share experiences and ideas.  

 

"and it is so hard to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to chikung or neikung"

 

I would have to disagree here. It is very easy. Create two piles, a garbage pile, and a retention pile. If scientists and medical doctors have been present to do their best to rule out fraud on camera, put it into the retention pile. If they haven't, put it into the garbage pile. If in the future better evidence arises for something you tossed into the garbage pile, pick it up, reexamine the evidence and reconsider it for the retention pile at that time.

 

"There's so much disinformation everywhere so I believe we must thread very carefully..."

 

I agree 110%.

 

"Basically, what I'm looking for is legitimate practices and legitimate students to share experiences and ideas.  "

 

The problem is that people who beat their head against the wall as a spiritual practice consider it legitimate. They will work hard to sell you on their practice. If you don't buy into their practice, they get offended, and a flame war extraordinaire ensues. It sounds like your definition of the word "legitimate" is drastically different than most other people here. Please be aware that trying to discuss why you think things are legitimate and others are not will only result in a fight here, no matter how friendly and polite you attempt to be. 

Edited August 23, 2018 by Ilovecoffee

[wandelaar]

To rule out fraud one you has to involve experts who know how one can fool other people, and scientists and medical doctors usually know next to nothing about that. That's not their business, and rightly so. The experts you need to have present are stage magicians with an interest in the occult and paranormal. I have no illusions about the usefulness of discussions with Ilovecoffee, but for Menezes it might be interesting to know that "having scientists and medical doctors present" just isn't enough for a decent parapsychological experiment.

[Ilovecoffee]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

To rule out fraud one you has to involve experts who know how one can fool other people, and scientists and medical doctors usually know next to nothing about that. That's not their business, and rightly so. The experts you need to have present are stage magicians with an interest in the occult and paranormal. I have no illusions about the usefulness of discussions with Ilovecoffee, but for Menezes it might be interesting to know that "having scientists and medical doctors present" just isn't enough for a decent parapsychological experiment.

 

As one example, take the video of John Chang.

 

The researchers present included:

 

Gregory V. Simpson, Ph.D. is a neuroscientist, formerly the Director of the Dynamic Neuroimaging Laboratory at UCSF, Co-Director, Dynamic Brain Activity Imaging Laboratory at Albert Einstein College of Medicine and a Senior Scientist at the Brain Plasticity Institute. Also present were a Medical Doctor and a the head of the Mind Science Institute.  

The subject was stripped to his underwear, and an undershirt and searched with a metal detector. He then gave a demonstration inside his home. After that, he gave another demonstration outside his home. Then the researchers took him to a random location they chose for a final demonstration. 

 

Granted maybe he hid some non-metallic electronic device inside a body cavity and the researchers missed it. Certainly, we would all love to have seen him x-rayed in a hospital immediately before the final demonstration. I feel, however, this objective video evidence (with scientists and medical doctors present to their best to rule out fraud) certainly is better than the alternative which is nothing at all. Keep in mind John never charged any student or patient anything, nor accepted donations.  

 

You continue to suggest that stage magicians can be stripped to an undershirt and underwear and checked for metallic devices with a metal detector by scientists and medical doctors at a random location and fool them with an identical demonstration. Certainly, I have seen no evidence of such an event taking place. What seems more likely to me is that you need a way to deny the event occurred and this excuse that "it was stage magic" is a convenient way to maintain your worldview.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Ilovecoffee

[wandelaar]

You are still ignoring the simple fact that the possibility of fraud was not sufficiently ruled out. Of course there are other experiments that are very much worse in that respect. But that doesn't make your experiment any better. In fact it is very difficult to set up a parapsychological experiment that rules out fraud (or self-deception) and that still gives more than marginal positive results. My position in this matter of whether or not there are paranormal phenomena is that I don't know. And now I will let you have the last word.

Edited August 23, 2018 by wandelaar

[Ilovecoffee]

54 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

You are still ignoring the simple fact that the possibility of fraud was not sufficiently ruled out. Of course there are other experiments that are very much worse in that respect. But that doesn't make your experiment any better. In fact it is very difficult to set up a parapsychological experiment that rules out fraud (or self-deception) and that still gives more than marginal positive results. My position in this matter of whether or not there are paranormal phenomena is that I don't know. And now I will let you have the last word.

 

They could have x-rayed John and had 100 scientists and medical doctors present and someone somewhere would still cry fraud. People could argue that the researchers or at least one of them was in on the fraud and slipped a device by so John could perform a hoax. I feel that John's demonstration is the best evidence we have, and the researchers gave it their best effort to rule out fraud.  It certainly is the best objective video evidence of this nature with doctors and scientists present to do their best to rule out fraud that I am aware of. Even if this was repeated at several major universities, some people would still argue fraud, no matter what. Whether someone accepts evidence as proof or not is purely up to them, and no one can force anyone else to accept a piece of evidence as valid. You can take a flat-earther to the edge of space, and they could argue what they were seeing was an illusion or a deception and was only a hoax. We can only present the best evidence we have and nothing more, people can either accept it or not. 

[silent thunder]

31 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

They could have x-rayed John and had 100 scientists and medical doctors present and someone somewhere would still cry fraud. People could argue that the researchers or at least one of them was in on the fraud and slipped a device by so John could perform a hoax. I feel that John's demonstration is the best evidence we have, and the researchers gave it their best effort to rule out fraud.  It certainly is the best objective video evidence of this nature with doctors and scientists present to do their best to rule out fraud that I am aware of. Even if this was repeated at several major universities, some people would still argue fraud, no matter what. Whether someone accepts evidence as proof or not is purely up to them, and no one can force anyone else to accept a piece of evidence as valid. You can take a flat-earther to the edge of space, and they could argue what they were seeing was an illusion or a deception and was only a hoax. We can only present the best evidence we have and nothing more, people can either accept it or not. 

 

Well said ilovecoffee.  The bolded statements resonate particularly for me.

 

In the end, until we actively engage and experience for our own self... all else is conjecture, hearsay and in those realms it is nigh on impossible to rule out mistaken notions, outright falsity and incorrect assumptions/interpretations/projections. 

 

While I can tell others about my experiences, feelings and thoughts, no one can be absolutely sure my words convey absolute truth as these are subjective and utterly personal and are thus not replicable in another's state of being. 

 

In the end, we must each engage for ourself in any given process and in this, we will find its resonance and effectiveness in our own process.  In this we will uncover its truth and veracity, not through claims, or videos, but in the fluid living process of our own experiential beingness.

 

I love that you have such a strong connection and draw to the teachings of Master John.  This is a rare gift is it not?  To know that you've found something that resonates for you and will bring you benefit.

 

 

Edited August 23, 2018 by silent thunder
wanted to bold another sentence

[Ilovecoffee]

14 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

 

Well said ilovecoffee.  The bolded statements resonate particularly for me.

 

In the end, until we actively engage and experience for our own self... all else is conjecture, hearsay and in those realms it is nigh on impossible to rule out mistaken notions, outright falsity and incorrect assumptions/interpretations/projections. 

 

While I can tell others about my experiences, feelings and thoughts, no one can be absolutely sure my words convey absolute truth as these are subjective and utterly personal and are thus not replicable in another's state of being. 

 

In the end, we must each engage for ourself in any given process and in this, we will find its resonance and effectiveness in our own process.  In this we will uncover its truth and veracity, not through claims, or videos, but in the fluid living process of our own experiential beingness.

 

I love that you have such a strong connection and draw to the teachings of Master John.  This is a rare gift is it not?  To know that you've found something that resonates for you and will bring you benefit.

 

 

 

"until we actively engage and experience for our own self"

 

Ultimately what we hope to accomplish is to provide the evidence we do have and encourage people to seriously investigate this for themselves.  Even if one doesn't believe "fire" exists, or that it is possible to make "fire" by using sticks, a bow tool, and a lot of elbow grease, if they are persistent, a "fire" they will make no matter if they believe in its existence or not.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Ilovecoffee

[thelerner]

Course the fact that its real means that if JC could do it, other people doing his system for many years could too.  They just have to buy or rent a camera. 

Or its real but non reproducible.  

Or people can show very old youtubes of JC performing but are forbidden to show themselves doing anything similar, but they could if they wanted, but choose not to. **

Ofcourse one spiritualist here conjectured it was a spirit thing; that for higher level 'stunts' you needed a spirit entity to assist.  Thus in the later youtubes you have JC talking about messages from the spirit elders giving him directives.  Perhaps without that connection don't expect to do 'stunts'.   That is not necessarily unique, religious Taoism (& many family chi gung styles) are based on connecting to lineage spirits for its higher level stuff.   

 

 

 

 

 

** I myself can invisible and have many hours of video showing myself in a state of invisibility. 

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by thelerner

[Fa Xin]

Seems this thread is getting real 😁

[Cheshire Cat]

Understand the nature of the industry and you'll know why the mere concept of your quest should turn you away from the spiritual path. 

 

Welcome to the Dao Bums

Edited August 24, 2018 by Cheshire Cat

[Ilovecoffee]

11 hours ago, thelerner said:

Course the fact that its real means that if JC could do it, other people doing his system for many years could too.  They just have to buy or rent a camera. 

Or its real but non reproducible.  

Or people can show very old youtubes of JC performing but are forbidden to show themselves doing anything similar, but they could if they wanted, but choose not to. **

Ofcourse one spiritualist here conjectured it was a spirit thing; that for higher level 'stunts' you needed a spirit entity to assist.  Thus in the later youtubes you have JC talking about messages from the spirit elders giving him directives.  Perhaps without that connection don't expect to do 'stunts'.   That is not necessarily unique, religious Taoism (& many family chi gung styles) are based on connecting to lineage spirits for its higher level stuff.   

 

 

 

 

 

** I myself can invisible and have many hours of video showing myself in a state of invisibility. 

 

 

John was past level 20 when he was filmed. We only have instruction for the first few levels.  It took Jim 10+ years to complete level 2a and begin his 2b training, and he worked diligently. A few in our group have considered doing a demo, but ultimately we feel if John's demonstration was unconvincing then what we could demonstrate would not be either.  The best we can do is present the evidence and hope others will see for themselves.

[thelerner]

Can't help but think that the 'best you can do' is present 'evidence' of your groups abilities.  Showing multiple, modern practitioners performing might well be more persuasive then very old videos of a foreigner.   

 

Undoubtedly it wouldn't persuade everyone, but it would persuade some.   Kind of feels like a cop out. 

 

 

You realize I myself have telekinesis, and pyrokinesis and speed reading skills, but I can't show them to anyone because some doubt JC's skills.  If everyone believed in him, then I'd show them off, but uh, I won't because of JC.  Plus making a video is so much work these days.   Does that inspire much confidence  in my abilities?

 

 

addon> I don't think this would be an issue if it weren't for basing your arguments that 'you're real' on JC videos.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by thelerner

[liminal_luke]

On 8/22/2018 at 10:25 PM, Menezes said:

Hey guys. Thanks for the replies.

Just to be clear, what I mean with "real" is just something that can give you results. 

Basically, what I'm looking for is legitimate practices and legitimate students to share experiences and ideas.  

 

Hi Menezes,

 

Could you tell us more about the kinds of results you`re looking for?  Maybe it`s just stupid good luck, but pretty much everything I`ve tried has seemed real to me.  There are so many things a person could hope for from their spiritual practice: relaxation, the healing of a specific condition, gaining healing abilities to help others, happiness, the development of compassion and other positive virtues, a pathway towards ultimate connection with the ground of reality (I just made that one up `cause it sounded good).  What is it you want?

 

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by liminal_luke