wei wu wei

[whitesilk]

In school I was told of the notion of wei wu wei or action without action. What does this mean? How does one complete a task ignorant of the process of completing the task?

Edited August 23, 2018 by whitesilk

[Marblehead]

Excellent question.  I like to add an alternate perspective to this in order to make it a bit more clear in my mind.

 

Doing what needs be done, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Also consider it to be action without alterior motives.

 

So yes, wei wu wie might have a task that involved various processes which have to be done in order, step by step.  This requires concentration.  But it is doing what needs be done and that is all.  No other actions involved.

 

[whitesilk]

True to marblehead, I'll humble my interpretation of action without action. It is more about following the way and being guided than acting ignorantly, yet at the same time, if one is guided, how does one act without knowing; would be my original interpretation of action without action. Effortless action is the action without action wikipedia interpretation.

 

So I guess my question is wei wu shi ?

 

So I'm thinking to apply an answer to create a computer encryption algorithm.

Edited August 23, 2018 by whitesilk

[Marblehead]

I need to know your understanding of the word "shi" before responding.

 

[whitesilk]

識

识

shí

to know; knowledge

 

I'm American

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, whitesilk said:

識

识

shí

to know; knowledge

 

I'm American

Thanks.

 

Action without knowing?

 

That would be instinctual or inspirational action, wouldn't it?

 

I would generally call that wu wei.

 

[whitesilk]

nonaction (wu wei) is not action without knowledge.

 

There is a difference.

 

To clarify, I'm asking a answer to a koan. It is an advanced and abstract question that I've asked in my original post.

[Marblehead]

You may be out of my ball park.  I don't do koans.

 

 

[Stosh]

Computers already function without awareness. Wei wu wei is a spiritual concept related to initiative , involvement and purview. 

A koan juxtaposes paradoxical oponents to elicit a sort of mental opportunity to reach new insight. 

I doubt the considerations you would be offered by the various schools of thought , will provide you directly with an impenetrable encryption resolution.. at least regarding wu wei as an exemplar. 

Good luck though.

[thelerner]

Don't try to hard to understand wu wei, rather look for it in life,

the times you're able to do things simply and in flow. 

[dawei]

22 hours ago, whitesilk said:

nonaction (wu wei) is not action without knowledge.

 

There is a difference.

 

To clarify, I'm asking a answer to a koan. It is an advanced and abstract question that I've asked in my original post.

 

I can see some confusion in that the topic was Wei Wu Wei but then you did ask a question as 'How does one complete a task ignorant of the process of completing the task?'

 

I think like myself, I thought you were confusing two ideas but it appeared to be about Wei Wu Wei... but it seems you want to know more about this question idea and leave Wei Wu Wei behind ?

 

I think some context may be needed.  To complete the building of a rocket likely requires training and knowledge of the process.  But if we're talking general living, that is the beacon of Light that resides in us all, that can point one in a direction or path.  We don't need to know about the process of it or why it is happening.  On a very simply level, you turn down a dark alley and something tells you to not go there...  You are likely better off listening to that 'voice' than questioning what process is there that will cause me to complete the task to not go down the alley.

 

I may be missing your mark but I like the topic... so please carry on.  

 

[whitesilk]

let us steer again into a more Taoist frame of mind, from the Wen-Tzu we have:

 

"In high antiquity, real people breathed yin and yang, and all living beings looked up to their virtue, thus harmonizing peacefully. In those times, leadership was hidden, spontaneously creating pure simplicity. Pure simplicity had not yet been lost, so myriad beings were relaxed.

 

Eventually society deteriorated. By the time of Fu Hsi, there was a dawning of deliberate effort, everyone was on the verge of leaving their innocent mind and consciously understanding the universe. Their virtues were complex and not unified.

 

Coming to the times when Shen-nung and Huang Ti governed the land and made calendars to harmonize with yin and yang, now all the people stood straight up and thinkingly bore the burden of looking and listening. Therefore they were orderly but not harmonious."

 

I've come to the conclusion that the Tao is real, yet does not exist. Thanks to thelerner for helping me to simplify. Thanks to dawei for allowing me to explain myself. For some time, I have worked on an audio note detection process, in an unorganized way (much like how I practice tai chi):

demo_electric.mp4

 

I merely was attempting and overthinking the way in which I might make the audio project available, and allow me to keep the process private. It seems there is no feasible way.

 

 

About the Wen-Tzu quote, leadership was hidden, spontaneously creating pure simplicity, there [is] a(re) living being(s) behind this Tao idea. There are living beings that create the machines we use on a daily basis, whether mechanical, electronic or otherwise. It seems to me that we, as a world, are cooperating enough to regain 'pure simplicity'.

[Small Fur]

On August 23, 2018 at 2:41 PM, whitesilk said:

In school I was told of the notion of wei wu wei or action without action. What does this mean? How does one complete a task ignorant of the process of completing the task?

 

On August 23, 2018 at 5:00 PM, whitesilk said:

nonaction (wu wei) is not action without knowledge.

 

There is a difference.

 

To clarify, I'm asking a answer to a koan. It is an advanced and abstract question that I've asked in my original post.

 

 

 

As you recognize it as a koan, realize that the answer resides outside of the discrete duality often present in intellect.

 

Wei Wu Wei- also sometimes translated as “action non-action” or “effortless action”, is: 

-the movement originating before shi shen or acquired consciousness, and thus not decided upon through conditioning

-the movement that is transcendent of mundane consciousness (such as concepts, projections, and emotional ideation), and therefore free of the common human conditioning of ignorance we often also call ‘human intelligence’

-the movement free of desire and thus occurs without karmic and egoic attachment

 

So while the inspiration that moves through you will pass through the conditions of forms and therefore contain within them the knowledge of conditioning, it is not from mundane condition that this movement originates.  The point of origination of movement is therefore inspired:

-through purified sense that helps one be and live from what is profoundly essential 

-through clarity and insight which allows for great wisdom

-through connection to Origin which transcends the baseness of all forms

 

Thus, wei wu wei cannot be intellectually grasped because it is itself essentially non-defined from its origin to manifestation, you have to experience it as a being in unison with the Unnamable.

 

On a fundamental level this may be implied through the feeling of grounded instinctual sense, simplicity in flow, and clarity of inspiration. And as one moves beyond the possible implications of feeling to complete consciousness, then there is realization of how stillness becomes movement, and thus actions can transform into ‘magic’.

[SirYuri]

This can be both a blessing and a trap with people who lacks the experience and common sense.

[whitesilk]

1 hour ago, Small Fur said:

the movement free of desire and thus occurs without karmic and egoic attachment

 

1 hour ago, Small Fur said:

Thus, wei wu wei cannot be intellectually grasped

 

Okay,

1 hour ago, Small Fur said:

the movement originating before shi shen or acquired consciousness, and thus not decided upon through conditioning

 

It is not contrived, not impulsive (or arising from self), not thought out. Sounds like 'Obsession'?

[Gerard]

Going with the flow, because honestly we are only tiny specs of the Tao but the more lifetimes one lives the more one learns and less mistakes one will make because they are costly. Not only from a Yin-Yang perspective but also from the ethical/moral law.

 

In the meantime do your homework too. Can't be just lazy, sit down and do nothing. Kung Fu practice and still meditation are excellent tools for this.

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2018 by Gerard

[whitesilk]

We are many tiny specs, part of a Tao of even more many tiny specs. Just picked up the Tao of Physics earlier, which discusses this topic from a physics perspective. Specifically, a kaon is a particle a few hundred times heavier than an electron. It can have a positive charge, neutral charge, conjugate neutral charge, or a negative charge.

 

Energy without mass interests me. The photon is without mass, yet the sun and other dense objects in the sky can bend light? How would photosynthesis in plants work (light causes an electron to move across a cellular membrane) without connection to weight?

 

I realize the erratic eccentricity of this thread. thelerner helped me lighten up, and well relax a bit. I just am 'awaiting employment'

[rideforever]

All it means is that you are acting from your soul rather than from the ego.

And so you can have a sense of non-doership.
Of course the ego is very noisy and coarse so when you are beneath the ego it sounds silent.
But ... this is another illusion.  Your soul isn't silent.
The soul is the part of the great self that is growing inside this form.
The ego in order to feel alive has to keep moving, doing, thinking.
Just like a shark has to keep swimming in order to breathe because of the design of it's body.
So the ego is always rushing around.
When the soul is discovered within then you can rest.
For many people in history, they get such a relief from this that they imagine many things.
Some imagine they don't exist.   Others that they are God.   
Others that nothing is happening.   Others that they are not-human.
Others that they are superman.   Others that they don't need sex anymore.
They have finally reached peace and often don't use their intelligence any more.
They are neither God nor nothing.
They are simply their soul, which is normal.
Doing still occurs but in a different way.
Intelligence and creativity and exploration still occurs, but from a place of wholeness.

 

[whitesilk]

Thanks rideforever, my limited perspective embodies my ego or self. The world outside me is one world, dynamic and harmoniously cycling through systems of changes.

On 8/25/2018 at 3:00 PM, whitesilk said:

leaving their innocent mind and consciously understanding the universe

 

On 8/25/2018 at 3:00 PM, whitesilk said:

all the people stood straight up and thinkingly bore the burden of looking and listening

 

'by learning you gain daily;

for the way you lose daily'

On 8/25/2018 at 3:00 PM, whitesilk said:

Coming to the times when Shen-nung and Huang Ti governed the land and made calendars to harmonize with yin and yang

Ancient man, it seems, imposed a system of thought on nature. They needed order and sacrificed pure harmony. A simple thing as a calendar removes some of my pure harmony, which is a quite subtle, unnoticed, and 'taken for granted' idea.

 

 

 

 

[whitesilk]

Anyway, I was taught at a young age, if I cannot solve something, move on and return the the problem, which is now solved, I will distribute the songs in the following format:

 

**I do not know if these are correct yet**

 

Side one '13' 'the doors'

 

the_doors__land_ho.pdf

the_doors__love_me_two_times.pdf

the_doors__the_unknown_soldier.pdf

the_doors__touch_me.pdf

the_doors__wild_child.pdf

the_doors__youre_lost_little_girl.pdf

the_doors__hello_i_love_you.pdf

[Marblehead]

And remember to open the door before you try walking through the doorway.

 

[whitesilk]

'don't let the door hit ya, where the good lord split ya'

[Wayfarer]

It was either Chuang Tsu, or the Hainantsu, or both that said "sages come to being through non-being" - something like that...

 

Wei also means "being" - be without being.

 

In a sense, it means that when our mind, with all its anxieties, hopes, desires etc gets out of the way then the Way happens of itself.  I don't mean that the Way is trying to do something, but there is a natural unfolding of itself, which is affected by the energies through which its expression is manifesting.

 

A person can act without a conscious thought of acting.  They can simply respond, or they can do a task with a blank mind.  Like a horse standing in a field, it is usually very still and tranquil.  When a dog runs towards it, the horse will respond.  While this response is calculated at some level, it is not necessarily at a conscious level.

 

Another example, if we practise Qigong and repeat a new move until we "get it" but we continue to repeat the move, the mind will at some point drift off on to other things; be they shopping, the weather, something that must be done etc.  So, the brain learns that when an action is repeated it no longer requires conscious effort to keep repeating it, it kind of goes deeper.  We are still swinging our arms around, and don't really come out of that trance until bored or the teachers throws in a slight change, and then we have to learn it consciously.

 

So, we are doing but not actively seeking to do, and we are being, without a thought of how to be.  It doesn't mean ignorance.  It means without concentrated effort.  

 

When we experience that the Dao happens anyway, of itself, and we are actually not a "we" but the Dao appearing "as" us, like the fact, nothing is raining rain, nothing is sunning the sun, they are there as a consequence of how Life has unfolded in that moment, we are no different.

 

When we believe that "we" are making things happen, and "we" are masters of our destiny, then this forced... and often severs the flow of how Life is coming into being... so our frustrations and wants can unsettle the energy of what is naturally unfolding.  Then we do not have wei wu wei.

[Marblehead]

Caused me to think about Tzujan.

 

Without thinking, without intent, just being what we have the potential to be.

 

[exorcist_1699]

Such a saying  is for people who already reached  certain  ,higher  level , not for  people at the initial stage.

 

Let say you want to study and master Japanese,  you decide to go and live in Japan and  spend a lot of time in learning  kana, kanji, their  complicated pronunciation and those grammars..etc. At first, hardly can you speak one or two sentences ..,later after having accumulated tons of  vocabularies , expression patterns and grammars, you  then become capable of  sustaining     a lengthy conversation... however, it is after decades  later ,  when one day  you  no longer think of any pronunciation rules and grammars and react instantly to a person's question  that you find yourself become a native-level speaker of Japanese..

 

Similarly,  as a native  speaker of  English, you don't think of any grammars before you open your mouth to speak,  otherwise, you can't speak it so fluently . It doesn't mean there are no English grammars,  but   to you ,  different from other non-native English speakers, there are no rules to  tell you ,  guide you to speak .

 

This kind of phenomenon does happen in some other  fields, but to Buddhism and Taoism , it is especially  significant as in these two arena, we are handling something unique  .  Let me raise the   Pure-Land Buddhist   way of "singing the name of Buddha "   as explanation ,  through it your path of climbing up those spiritual  levels may take the form as  the following:

 

First, you sing  the name of Buddha mindfully  and anxiously so as to  get some effects  (  "有心念 佛"    )    ->

then , after having sung it  for months or years ,  you find yourself entered  a stage of singing the name of Buddha mindlessly    ("念 佛無心")   , even lost yourself   and suddenly ask   :  " Who is singing it "    ->

 

Finally , you find  out that there is  , in fact, no need   to sing any name of the  of Buddha at all ("佛不用念, 無修無証" )  .  

 

So , no rules becomes the highest rule, no minds turns into the biggest  Mind, no action yet allows you to achieve all...

 

Hard to grasp for beginners ;  especially for most people, experiences  tell them that if   they do things mindfully,  pay more effort, focus stronger, then they  achieve more ;  but  in the arena of Taoism and Buddhism, we need to adopt a different mindset .  Hopefully, with  some  more  practice,   people can grasp it .

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by exorcist_1699