[DDJ Meaning] Chapter 42

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, dawei said:

That one rock on the table came from something... so that is not really the ONE except if we ignore where it came from.  But if forces acted on it, even water can break it up into Two.

 

Hi dawei,

 

"Way gave birth to one,
and one gave birth to two.
Two gave birth to three,
and three gave birth to the ten thousand things."

 

... and one rock turns into the sand of time?

 

 

- Anand

 

[dawei]

22 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi dawei,

 

Taoist (ac)counting algorithms may defy conventional logic... except perhaps to the fellow travelers on a path less traveled... when they learn and share experientially?

 

- Anand

 

Well, even water, ice, steam are three-in-one... so I won't get too pedantic on the issue if we move outside of the chapter words.

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, dawei said:

... the more modern applications of alchemy cultivation.

 

Hi dawei,

 

Is modern alchemy ~ chemistry?

 

I am trained a chemist. If I had sat for my examinations as an alchemist ~ I would be in The VOID now.

 

Why? My professors failed me.

 

- Anand

 

[Limahong]

9 minutes ago, dawei said:

... even water, ice, steam are three-in-one...

 

Ice => water => steam (chemistry)... in the realm of ... jing => chi => shen (alchemy) ... <= energy cultivation?

[Limahong]

30 minutes ago, dawei said:

... words ...

 

Lost/loss in translation?

 

Edited April 12, 2019 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[vonkrankenhaus]

3 hours ago, Limahong said:

"Way gave birth to one,
and one gave birth to two.
Two gave birth to three,
and three gave birth to the ten thousand things."

 

The issue is that materialists want to see and count physical things.

 

The only physical thing in that passage is the One.

 

The TaiJi is not a physical thing.

 

YinYang are not physical things.

 

Qi is not a physical thing.

 

The "rock" in my previous example is a stand-in for any one physical manifestation as we see it.

 

As I stated, it could even just be a physical Movement.

 

Any "One" will exhibit YinYang or "Two"  - it will exhibit polarity, inherently.

 

And between the poles of those polarities, Movement will happen.

 

Polarity causes Movement = "Two gave birth to Three".

 

All variations of things are produced by that Movement, or "Qi".

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

[dawei]

5 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi dawei,

 

Is modern alchemy ~ chemistry?

 

I am trained a chemist. If I had sat for my examinations as an alchemist ~ I would be in The VOID now.

 

Why? My professors failed me.

 

- Anand

 

 

By modern, I really mean anything after 1200.  Most of what folks reference as daoist alchemy cultivation will be after this.   A far cry from the 300 bc dating of the Laozi.   And the ancient practices pre-date him by some time (depending on the stories one looks at).

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

The issue is that materialists want to see and count physical things.

 

Hi vonkrankenhaus,

 

Everything is energy to me.

 

On a road less traveled ~ I tend to feel/perceive/understand... without words... to avoid issues on my Way to The Void.

 

- Anand

[Limahong]

6 hours ago, dawei said:

By modern, I really mean anything after 1200.  Most of what folks reference as daoist alchemy cultivation will be after this.   A far cry from the 300 bc dating of the Laozi.   And the ancient practices pre-date him by some time (depending on the stories one looks at).

 

Hi dawei,

 

Time flows naturally like a river. It is nice to hear stories whilst floating down timelessly on the river.

 

Many stories were/are/will be told since Laozi.

 

Are story tellers ~ wordsmiths... alchemists...?

 

 

Who is my love? Mother Nature.

 

 

- Anand

 

Edited April 13, 2019 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[vonkrankenhaus]

1 hour ago, Limahong said:

Everything is energy to me

 

Yes.

 

It is for Everyone.

 

I was adding to the various explanation of how.

 

The first Movement was Yang, and established Stasis - Yin.

 

All Movement is Yang.

 

Movement is Energy.

 

The 10,000 Things all derive from that first Movement.

 

Because that Movement inherently HAS or "exhibits" Polarity, or "YinYang", or "the TaiJi".

 

Polarity means Difference.

 

Difference means Variation, or "Everything".

 

So you are seeing okay.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Limahong]

46 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

... first Movement.

 

 

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, dawei said:

 

By modern, I really mean anything after 1200.  Most of what folks reference as daoist alchemy cultivation will be after this.   A far cry from the 300 bc dating of the Laozi.   And the ancient practices pre-date him by some time (depending on the stories one looks at).

 

It's easy enough to examine the Neiye, the "proto-Daoist text that clearly influenced the Daode jing, Zhuangzi, and other classics." There is clear reference to neidan-like cultivation in the Neiye imo, which could have easily developed over time into more modern daoist alchemy as we know it if the Neiye instructions were followed, with reference to jing, qi, shen, water flowing upwards, inner cultivation  to directly apprehend the "all-pervading cosmic force."  

[Limahong]

21 hours ago, Bindi said:

... with reference to jing, qi, shen, water flowing upwards, inner cultivation  to directly apprehend the "all-pervading cosmic force."

 

Hi Bindi,

 

I used to think of jing, qi, shen as a processual threesome.

 

Of late, I have collapsed them into ONE ~ in any one moment.

 

I try to move away from words, conceptions, interpretations, commentaries, historical baggages... and be more symbolic. 

 

For instance I am beginning to think of  "jing, qi, shen" as 'A-B-C' dynamically and cyclically thus...

 

 

Take your pick ~ what do you want your "jing, qi, shen" to be ... A, B or C?

 

Or which of these shades do you want them to be... ?

 

 

Now I am moving lighter on my road less traveled...

 

- Anand

 

Edited April 13, 2019 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[dawei]

20 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

It's easy enough to examine the Neiye, the "proto-Daoist text that clearly influenced the Daode jing, Zhuangzi, and other classics." There is clear reference to neidan-like cultivation in the Neiye imo, which could have easily developed over time into more modern daoist alchemy as we know it if the Neiye instructions were followed, with reference to jing, qi, shen, water flowing upwards, inner cultivation  to directly apprehend the "all-pervading cosmic force."  

 

Yes there are forerunners and precursors to the modern understanding that most ultimately make reference too... but until someone actually says what they mean by 'alchemy cultivation' and date the practice they have in mind, I don't usually jump to their meaning as the Neiye.    Interestingly, this early work has some commonality with Confucianism.   The central role of the heart (Xin) is interesting too as that is not the emphasis in most alchemy works.    The emphasis on knowing One also seems central. 

[Limahong]

17 minutes ago, dawei said:

The emphasis on knowing One also seems central. 

 

Good morning dawei,

 

And also the centrality of one knowing oneself as ONE?

 

I am not playing with words.

 

- Anand

[Limahong]

On 4/12/2019 at 8:30 PM, dawei said:

A, B, DC are the three in what I related.

 

Hi dawei,

 

My apology ~ I left out C as a gap.

 

This is what I am trying to put across...

 

A + B => C => DC

 

- Anand

[dawei]

7 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Good morning dawei,

 

And also the centrality of one knowing oneself as ONE?

 

I am not playing with words.

 

- Anand

 

It is not necessarily stated as directly as that, more like: Hold fast to [the guiding principle of] One[ness].... and how to 'maintain' it.  This is clearly a theme in LZ.

 

Thus, there is self-restraint being encouraged to some degree (stay calm, unmoved, unaffected by this or that, etc).   Curiously, in one part, it calls such a person a "Junzi", a confucian term to mean 'Gentleman' but likely more like 'Superior Man', maybe akin to Zhuangzi's "Real Man". 

 

The use of Spirit seems akin to the earlier concepts of 'spirits' at times and less about Qi that transform to spirit inside the body; it seems at times something acquired or brought to oneself.

 

It is an interesting read and recommend it. 

 

 

[ilumairen]

23 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

Yes.

 

It is for Everyone.

 

I was adding to the various explanation of how.

 

The first Movement was Yang, and established Stasis - Yin.

 

I'm curious.  Couldn't it also be said that "the first movement" arose out of stasis? 

 

23 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

All Movement is Yang.

 

Movement is Energy.

 

The 10,000 Things all derive from that first Movement.

 

Because that Movement inherently HAS or "exhibits" Polarity, or "YinYang", or "the TaiJi".

 

Polarity means Difference.

 

Difference means Variation, or "Everything".

 

So you are seeing okay.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

[Limahong]

5 minutes ago, dawei said:

"Junzi",

 

Thank you dawei,

 

"Junzi" ~ correct...?

 

Apology if it is incorrect - perhaps I am a xiao ren.

 

- Anand

 

 

[Limahong]

5 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

I'm curious.

 

Hi ilumairen,

 

 

Get ready for your Sunday's "Quiet Corner".

 

A great weekend.

 

- Anand

[ilumairen]

Just now, Limahong said:

 

Hi ilumairen,

 

 

Get ready for your Sunday's "Quiet Corner".

 

A great weekend.

 

- Anand

 

Will you be joining this Sunday's meditation?

[OldDog]

Kinda glad we came back to this discussion of one to two to three.

 

In The Way of the Golden Elixir, Pregadio gives a pretty decent explanation.

 

According to one of the ways in which this passage has been understood, the Dao first generates Unity, which comprises the two complementary principles of Yin and Yang. After Yin and Yang differentiate from one another, they again conjoin and generate the “three,” which is the product of their conjunction. The “ten thousand things” are the totality of entities produced by the continuous reiteration of this process.

 

This seems entirely consistent with early Daoist cosmology.

 

As I understand this, the Three is not a specific thing ... it's a metaphorical launch point for the 10,000 things.

 

As an aside ... but not entirely unrelated . .. ever notice how often "three" occurs in the ancient texts? The three Emperor's ... the three August Ones ... three days, three months, three years, etc. It's like "three" is an expression representing multiple occurrences, not literally three. It's almost Confucian in its sufficiency and correctness. Just saying.

 

 

[Limahong]

5 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

Will you be joining this Sunday's meditation?

 

Thank you for the the invitation... but please excuse me...

 

 

- Anand

 

[Limahong]

8 minutes ago, OldDog said:

In The Way of the Golden Elixir, Pregadio gives a pretty decent explanation.

 

Hi OldDog,

 

Thank you.

 

I have superimposed your Pregadio's excerpt ~ on this experiential encounter...

 

A + B => C => DC

 

... and I am inclined towards these corresponding analogies ~

 

Unity ~ Trust

Yin and Yang ~ A and B

"three" ~ C

"ten thousand things" ~ DC

 

Apology for not sharing the experience explicitly ~ it was a private path on a road less traveled.

 

As "Confucian in its sufficiency and correctness" ~ TRUST is key.

 

- Anand

 

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, dawei said:

 

Yes there are forerunners and precursors to the modern understanding that most ultimately make reference too... but until someone actually says what they mean by 'alchemy cultivation' and date the practice they have in mind, I don't usually jump to their meaning as the Neiye.    Interestingly, this early work has some commonality with Confucianism.   The central role of the heart (Xin) is interesting too as that is not the emphasis in most alchemy works.    The emphasis on knowing One also seems central. 

 

Regarding the heart in alchemy there is this

Chinese woodblock illustration of neidan "Cleansing the heart-mind and retiring into concealment", 1615 Xingming guizhi 性命圭旨 (Pointers on Spiritual Nature and Bodily Life).  

 

I don't know what 'One' refers to in the Neiye, is it relevant in relation to DDJ42?  

zhang 9 "One"

1 Those able to transform One thing are called 'Spiritual';

2 Those able to change One affair are called 'wise'.

3 To transform without expending Energy;

4 To change without expending wisdom:

5 By grasping the One only the Master is able to do this!

6 Grasp the One; do not loose it,

7 And you will be able to master the myriad things.

8 The Master acts upon things,

9 And is not acted upon by things

10 Attain to the guiding principle of the One.