[DDJ Meaning] Chapter 42

[Nungali]

37 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Think of One and Two as centre and periphery (as, from a certain perspective, suggested by the image of Earth and Heaven). In between these two poles, energy moves and the ten-thousand things are created (with Man being their epitome).

 

You could call this the story of Creation in a nutshell. 

 

Yup !

[rideforever]

Jesus, some of this really gives me a headache.   Especially that Kaballah stuff that has very pretty pictures and flowery words but does not lead to clarity of understanding.   And if it is not clear it is not understanding.   Kaballah diagrams have the words "knowledge" and "understanding" which seem to be quite different to the energetic construction of things.   Taoism is energy focused hence the energy traditions associated with it.

 

Man and woman has baby.   2 > 3.   So far so easy.   

But why then talk of the 10,000 things, isn't that already indicated ?

Laozi seems to want to spell it out using the extra step.

 

None > One > Yin-Yang > Makes Babies > Lots of Stuff

 

- there is quite a lot missing : intelligence and love.   In fact you need both before you can begin.

- this might only deal with the energetic generation of this unvierse

- this form of manifestation might be a mirror (in this plane of existence) of something even more fundamental that exists beyond this universe, for instance is Yin-Yang really purushy pakariti, the asking-and-answering ?

- what is the purpose of the creation of this universe ?  Is there a plan ?

- is yin-yang an engine designed to create a particular result after several billion years ?

- does intelligence and love come from a different dimension ?   How does it pop into this universe ?   Is it before the "None" or after the 10,000 ?   Or both ?

 

Laozi's perspective seems rather simpler than all these things, and a bit "disinterested".   His views are interesting but I would say are a poetic description of life rather than a practical guide.   It's nice to sit back as an old man in the armchair and mull things over, but in fact being in the heart of active struggle of life you need a different kind of guide.   It can be a bit indulgent.   
He is "returning", and so his writing is a journal written on his return journey.
However many people are not "returning" and need different guidance.
Also he was according to reports leaving the city in dismay, so in a certain way he had failed to harmonize existence where he stood, and gave up and walked out.   So his views or efforts were not completed.   Not to blame him.
Some  possible completions of our journey might be :

- merge back with the engine at the centre of this universe
- fulfill the purpose for which the universe was made, and get paid

- exit the universe

- any combination

 

Edited August 26, 2018 by rideforever

[wandelaar]

When Yin and Yang are aspects of things and situations than how can they precede the ten-thousand things?

[rideforever]

14 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

When Yin and Yang are aspects of things and situations than how can they precede the ten-thousand things?

 

If we assume that Yin-Yang are a kind of fundamental coupling that the entirety of "existence" is made from ... then the creation of this universe could be the percolation into a new plane of Yin-Yang.   Yin-Yang exists in many cycles, some cycles larger and earlier than this universe.   Perhaps there is one place where universes are made.  Therefore the Yin-Yang of that realm precedes the Yin-Yang of this universe.

 

We naturally borrow from the monkey's perspectives and think in terms of matter.   But matter is a kind of solution to a problem in a certain realm.   And the "physical" realm is a kind of place where questions are asked through material forms.

However Laozi is trying to describe the origin of this universe so that we may learn based on that observation.

 

It is also possible that in another part of existence there is something else based on other things and that creates different kinds of universes.   Who knows.

 

One of my earlier points was that the creation of the universe's energy structure does not seem to explain love and intelligence > what is their relationship to energy or to generation of worlds ?

 

There are certainly many many things to explore.

Edited August 26, 2018 by rideforever

[Wu Ming Jen]

“The ‘Tai Ji Diagram is precisely the ‘Boundless Infinite Diagram’. 
The ‘Boundless Infinite’ is exactly Yin embracing Yang, 
Yang embracing Yin, 
Yin and Yang not yet being separated, 
the time of heaven and earth not yet having taken shape.”

Fu Xi recognized that before heaven and earth were divided, the universe was Yin-Yang and the primal chaos integrated in one organic entity called the ‘ Infinite Boundless Diagram’. In this condition and state of turbidity, no polarities could be divided. The Tai Ji diagram is commonly called ‘the Yin-Yang Fish’, depicting the state of turbidity before the beginning of the universe, before the opening of heaven and the splitting of earth. At its core is the philosophy of opposition, the philosophical principles of Yin-Yang equilibrium, more profound than language. This kind of turbid condition of the primordial chaos could be roughly divided into four stages:
‘Not yet visible Qi’, ‘the initial Qi’, ‘the commencement of form’, and ‘the formation of matter’;

The creation of life is used below to exemplify this point:

‘Not yet visible Qi’:
Eventually a Yin egg is formed inside the female ovaries via sublimating over a long time. The mature Yin egg begins to seek a Yang sperm, from the ovaries it advances and enters the Child’s Palace, namely the womb. In the matured males testicles, a Yang sperm forms also through a long period of sublimation. Through the male and female love-making, the Yin egg and the Yang sperm converge in the female womb.
If one regards the womb analogy as the Tai Ji diagram’s outer ring, then the Yin egg and the Yang sperm are exactly resembling the Yin and Yang fish inside the Tai Ji diagram. The Yin egg and the Yang sperm will eventually mutually attract each other to one place. This stage is the ‘Not yet visible Qi’ phase, impossible to perceive or sense.

‘The initial Qi’:
Once the Yin egg and the Yang sperm happen to collide, they mutually join together, just as the two Yin-Yang fish do inside the Tai Ji diagram, and new transformative combinations begin to grow.

‘The commencement of form’:
Once tiny life is formed in the womb, it undergoes chemical changes initiated by the mother’s Yin and Yang, as well as by its own Yin and Yang. Therefore it continues to absorb nutrients, and gradually grows into an “infant”.

‘The formation of matter’:
Even though it is gradually and slowly taking shape, there are also sudden bursts. ‘Ten months of pregnancy, every childbirth exactly will rest on quantitative changes causing qualitative changes.”

There were no Chinese characters at the era of Fu Xi , the eight drawn images compare well with the characterless heavenly book. Lao Zi in the 《Dao De Jing》 draws up a figurative metaphor:

“The Dao gives birth to One,
One gives birth to Two, 
Two gives birth to Three, 
Three gives birth to the ten thousand things.”

[rideforever]

20 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

Three gives birth to the ten thousand things

 

Perhaps this means that humans have the power to leave the yin-yang pattern and the whole thing is a description of the origin of free will.   Which begs the question whether yin-yang also has left the Tao.

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

When Yin and Yang are aspects of things and situations than how can they precede the ten-thousand things?

I think you might have put the carriage in front of the horse.

 

 

[Marblehead]

15 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

Perhaps this means that humans have the power to leave the yin-yang pattern and the whole thing is a description of the origin of free will.   Which begs the question whether yin-yang also has left the Tao.

Yin/Yang are the polarities of Chi.  Chi always exists.

 

 

[wandelaar]

If you suppose chi to be energy than variations in its density imply Yin and Yang. And because gravitational energy can be negative it is possible for the net energy of the universe to be zero.

[Marblehead]

16 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

And because gravitational energy can be negative it is possible for the net energy of the universe to be zero.

Yes, possible, but it's not.  That's good enough for me.

 

[wandelaar]

17 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Yes, possible, but it's not.  That's good enough for me.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-energy_universe

https://www.astrosociety.org/publication/a-universe-from-nothing/

 

The possibility doesn't seem to be ruled out on the basis of our current scientific understanding...

[Marblehead]

I'm not ready to accept either of those.  I couldn't accept Hawking's "Everything From Nothing" either.

 

But then, I'm not a quantum guy so I think my rejecting them stands to reason.

 

 

[wandelaar]

Do you have a reason for rejecting them?

[Wu Ming Jen]

“Heaven and Humans embody each other (share one Body);

Yin Yang are balanced;

Mind and body are nourished in unison;

An integrated and holistic plan as a whole.”

 

Tao is the origin for the evolutionary creation of life in the universe, Heaven and Earth and the Ten Thousand Things.

 

pursuit of natural harmony, great peace for the country, order for society and concord in family homes.

 

 

Taoism amply reflects the spiritual and moral life 

It exerts a far-reaching influence on all facets of life such as the ideologies of Chinese academic sciences, politics and economy, military affairs and strategies, literature and arts, science and technology, the character and personality of its citizens, the ethics of the Way and Virtue, thinking patterns, local customs and traditions, popular beliefs and so on.

[rideforever]

Remembrance Returning
There is no order, if everything is ordered.
There are those who exit this order to reach a higher order.
During the transition is disorder.
Others wish to return to an old order that is no longer theirs.
Growth is natural, as is risk taking, that is simply life.
Acorns are cast out into hazard by the parent, and they must take their chances.

Some live through praising "order", but they wish to prevent their own birth.

What is it that is called order ?
Yesterday's temporary harmony ?
If you can call it order, you are already like the acorn, on the outward journey.   Do you know it ?
True order is the reconciliation of disorder during growth.
Comfort and skill with the unknown.
Carrying eternally the remembrance of the primal message.

"Returning" is the returning of remembrance, whilst continuing.

 

 

Edited August 26, 2018 by rideforever

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, rideforever said:

Jesus, some of this really gives me a headache.   Especially that Kaballah stuff that has very pretty pictures and flowery words but does not lead to clarity of understanding. 

 

It does to me . There is an essential pattern through nature, some can see it, others cant and are stuck on its varied individual manifestations . You seem to have got caught on a few individual manifestation cultural words ..... just eliminate them then and look for the basic internal principles that are being described.

 

The essential art of what I was trying to convey is in tha arrangement , not specific cultural terms .

 

 

13 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

 

 And if it is not clear it is not understanding

 

 

If it isnt clear yo you    you are not understanding ... its pretty clear to me ,  I have also run it past others , its clear to some of them too ... and not clear to others .

 

 

13 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

.   Kaballah diagrams have the words "knowledge" and "understanding" which seem to be quite different to the energetic construction of things.   Taoism is energy focused hence the energy traditions associated with it.

 

Well, of course its different , different cultural understandings of underlying universal principles .   Dao does nt have the monopoly on it, you know ... thats just one cultural expression of  an independent Universal force that manifests in many different ways and is known by different methods.

 

13 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

Man and woman has baby.   2 > 3.   So far so easy.   

 

Humans (in this example ) are one thing , but are expressed in 'duality' - man and woman

 

There is the triad again

 

Human - man and woman   ...  Dao - yin and yang

 

the '4th thing' - children  ....  the 4th thing - '10,000  things '

 

 

13 hours ago, rideforever said:

But why then talk of the 10,000 things, isn't that already indicated ?

Laozi seems to want to spell it out using the extra step.

 

Maybe he wants it clear and didnt want to miss step .   Is Laozi mistaken here ... or is it the readers confusion ? 

 

 

 

13 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

None > One > Yin-Yang > Makes Babies > Lots of Stuff

 

- there is quite a lot missing : intelligence and love.   In fact you need both before you can begin.

 

Well, if I could go back to my kabbalah diagram, without causing too much confusion , you will see there are levels between the ideal triad , below the abyss , it is not  until after those 'condensations' that we get to  the last sphere of material manifestation  eg spanning  the last vertical line is Hod and Netzach ;  intelligence and love  ... and each polarity is a reflection of the original above the abyss, hence it is already there in 'seed form' , or basic form, or 'arcetypically '  'before you begin'   .

 

 

 

 

13 hours ago, rideforever said:

- this might only deal with the energetic generation of this unvierse

- this form of manifestation might be a mirror (in this plane of existence) of something even more fundamental that exists beyond this universe, for instance is Yin-Yang really purushy pakariti, the asking-and-answering ?

- what is the purpose of the creation of this universe ?  Is there a plan ?

- is yin-yang an engine designed to create a particular result after several billion years ?

- does intelligence and love come from a different dimension ?   How does it pop into this universe ?   Is it before the "None" or after the 10,000 ?   Or both ?

 

Phew ! ....  

 -yes

-yes and no

- It doesnt need one .  I dont know .

- no

- no , unless 'dimension' is qualified . See  the Tol model .   before, intelligence is a lower manifestation (apparently )

 

13 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

Laozi's perspective seems rather simpler than all these things, and a bit "disinterested".   His views are interesting but I would say are a poetic description of life rather than a practical guide.   It's nice to sit back as an old man in the armchair and mull things over, but in fact being in the heart of active struggle of life you need a different kind of guide.   It can be a bit indulgent.   
He is "returning", and so his writing is a journal written on his return journey.

 

yeah, I agree  ....      I am at armchair and mulling stage myself

 

 

13 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

 

However many people are not "returning" and need different guidance.
Also he was according to reports leaving the city in dismay, so in a certain way he had failed to harmonize existence where he stood, and gave up and walked out.   So his views or efforts were not completed.   Not to blame him.

 

same here !

 

 

 

13 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

 

 

Some  possible completions of our journey might be :

- merge back with the engine at the centre of this universe
- fulfill the purpose for which the universe was made, and get paid

- exit the universe

- any combination

 

 

Regarding peoples completions of their journey;

 

Unto them from whose eyes the veil of life hath fallen may there be granted the accomplishment of their true Wills;

whether they will absorption in the Infinite,

or to be united with their chosen and preferred,

or to be in contemplation,

or to be at peace,

or to achieve the labour and heroism of incarnation on this planet or another,

or in any Star,

or aught else,

unto them may there be granted the accomplishment of their wills.

 

;

 

[rideforever]

Enjoying the essential patterns found on the mountain, is for those who look from below.
To climb you need the specific tools and the specific path and the yearning.
Every hand hold is specific.
Every breath.
Soon you leave the spectators below, sitting in their fur coats, sipping their espressos.
Soon forgotten, blow away by the lungs.
Up, up here, the air is clean.
The path rejoined, meaning rejoined, truth rejoined.
And the wild goose, leaves no shadow.

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2018 by rideforever

[Marblehead]

20 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Do you have a reason for rejecting them?

Other than "my" logic, no.  quantum physics works well in the micro but it fails in the macro universe.  I live in the macro universe.

 

Relativity still works great in the macro.

 

And I so much like "cause and effect" as opposed to uncertainty.

 

 

[wandelaar]

 

In the first 9 minutes he discusses the strangeness of quantum mechanics much better than I could do it. Unhappily nature (Tao) doesn't care whether we like it or not. Simply refusing to look at certain aspects of nature doesn't make them go away.

 

But it isn't even true that quantum phenomena don't interfere with your macro world. As you are frequently using the internet you are thereby using the quantum processes that make the chips inside your computer work as they should. So your daily business (that is your macro world) is in large part founded on the correctness of quantum mechanics. And also matter and (bio)chemistry are what they are precisely because of quantum mechanics. So you cannot even avoid it even if you wanted. But of course you can ignore all that, and look away...

[Marblehead]

6 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

In the first 9 minutes he discusses the strangeness of quantum mechanics much better than I could do it. Unhappily nature (Tao) doesn't care whether we like it or not. Simply refusing to look at certain aspects of nature doesn't make them go away.

 

But it isn't even true that quantum phenomena don't interfere with your macro world. As you are frequently using the internet you are thereby using the quantum processes that make the chips inside your computer work as they should. So your daily business (that is your macro world) is in large part founded on the correctness of quantum mechanics. And also matter and (bio)chemistry are what they are precisely because of quantum mechanics. So you cannot even avoid it even if you wanted. But of course you can ignore all that, and look away...

Yep.  That argument has been presented to me before.  I won't deny the truth in it.

 

But still, I am fixed with my logic; that is, my ability to understand it logically.  That is where I fall short.

 

The search is still on for a "unifying theory".  Once that is obtained I might be able to be more accepting of quantum theory.

 

So yeah, my computer includes components based in quantum mechanics.  And it operates a lot faster because of it.

 

I have nowhere else to go at the moment.

 

[wandelaar]

As Feynman himself says in the lecture nobody really understands quantum mechanics. We as humans have great problems picturing in our minds what goes on in the micro world. In one way that's disappointing, but in another way it's conform the claim of Lao tzu that the absolute Tao is beyond our understanding. A proven Theory of Everything that could be fully understood would remove much of the mystery of existence, and thereby invalidate part of philosophical Taoism.

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

As Feynman himself says in the lecture nobody really understands quantum mechanics. We as humans have great problems picturing in our minds what goes on in the micro world. In one way that's disappointing, but in another way it's conform the claim of Lao tzu that the absolute Tao is beyond our understanding. A proven Theory of Everything that could be fully understood would remove much of the mystery of existence, and thereby invalidate part of philosophical Taoism.

Nice response.  Indeed, my Taoist understandings might be one of the reasons I am limited in understanding quantum theory any better than I do, which is poor.

 

But then too, I am a Materialist.  That has its effects as well.

 

When I was in college I had a required course "Math For Social Studies Majors".  I maxed the mid-term, the instructor said I was the first one to ever do that, and was still Acing the course until we got to Calculus.  I couldn't imagine an imaginary number.

 

 

[wandelaar]

3 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I couldn't imagine an imaginary number.

 

We could start a subject about that if you wish. It's never too late to learn. I can explain it.

[Marblehead]

Just now, wandelaar said:

 

We could start a subject about that if you wish. It's never too late to learn. I can explain it.

I accept the offer.  You must start it though as I have no idea how to start something I know nothing about.

 

[wandelaar]

See you there: