[DDJ Meaning] Chapter 42

[vonkrankenhaus]

4 hours ago, ilumairen said:

I'm curious.  Couldn't it also be said that "the first movement" arose out of stasis?

 

No and Yes.

 

Because until some thing moves, there is no way to discern "Stasis" - nothing to compare it to to see that it is "Stasis".

 

WuJi means no polarity is there - no comparisons are possible.

 

This is what we could call "Stillness", but if it is, it is a "Stillness" we cannot discern.

 

It is "Nothing".

 

It isn't until we have the TaiJi that there is the polarity that enables us to discern.

 

And the first Movement is Yang because ALL Movement is Yang.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[OldDog]

When it comes to trying to define terms commonly encountered in alchemical texts, I often refer to Pregadio. In his translation of Awakening the Tao, he involves a discussion of the cosmological model in his explanation of the origins. In his explication he talks about the distinction between pre-celestial and post-celestial. There he says:

 

In this view, the cosmos as we know it is the self-manifestation of the
Dao, which first determines itself as Oneness. Primal Oneness contains Yin and Yang in their pristine state; the joining of Yin and Yang generates the world. To appreciate the details of this view, it is convenient to follow the example of the alchemical texts and describe it through the emblems of the Book of Changes. Qian (pristine Yang) and Kun (pristine Yin) are constantly joined to one another in the state of Unity. Being joined Qian unceasingly bestows its essence to Kun, and Kun bri ngs it to achievement; thus the world with its countless events and phenomena is generated. However, due to the very fact of being continuously joined to one another, Qian becomes Li (Yang} , and Kun becomes Kan (Yin). Therefore the essence of the Yang principle in its pure state is now found within Kan. That principle, which is the One Breath of the Dao (the state of Unity represented by the undivided line), is what an alchemist seeks to recover.

 

But this is an understanding from a much later Daoist text. The question was asked what was the meaning in the Neiye. To look for the answer, I referred to Dan G Reid's Thread of Dao, a discussion of what he calls proto-Daoist texts, including the Nieye. However, I could not quickly find a concise definition. But from what I have read and understood, the nature of Oneness is a recurring theme whose meaning is not far from what Pregadio describes, but without the use of the Yijing cosmological model. Perhaps this from Ried will help.

 

The Guigu Zi is useful for the study of the Guan Zi’s “art of the heart-mind,” as it expands on these teachings and offers some confirmation as to the meaning of “oneness” in the Guan Zi, and elsewhere, where it refers to uniting facets of consciousness and energy.

 

Later, in a comparison of the Guanzi texts to DDJ Ch10 , He Shangong's commetary is cited.

 

Referring to Oneness, it is said:  “In a unified consciousness, there is no division.”

 

This sounds a lot like the undivided pre-celestial combination of Yin-Yang.

 

A fuller reading of the Thread of Dao will no doubt shed more light. Hope this is helpful.

[voidisyinyang]

1 hour ago, OldDog said:

When it comes to trying to define terms commonly encountered in alchemical texts, I often refer to Pregadio. In his translation of Awakening the Tao, he involves a discussion of the cosmological model in his explanation of the origins. In his explication he talks about the distinction between pre-celestial and post-celestial. There he says:

 

In this view, the cosmos as we know it is the self-manifestation of the
Dao, which first determines itself as Oneness. Primal Oneness contains Yin and Yang in their pristine state; the joining of Yin and Yang generates the world. To appreciate the details of this view, it is convenient to follow the example of the alchemical texts and describe it through the emblems of the Book of Changes. Qian (pristine Yang) and Kun (pristine Yin) are constantly joined to one another in the state of Unity. Being joined Qian unceasingly bestows its essence to Kun, and Kun bri ngs it to achievement; thus the world with its countless events and phenomena is generated. However, due to the very fact of being continuously joined to one another, Qian becomes Li (Yang} , and Kun becomes Kan (Yin). Therefore the essence of the Yang principle in its pure state is now found within Kan. That principle, which is the One Breath of the Dao (the state of Unity represented by the undivided line), is what an alchemist seeks to recover.

 

But this is an understanding from a much later Daoist text. The question was asked what was the meaning in the Neiye. To look for the answer, I referred to Dan G Reid's Thread of Dao, a discussion of what he calls proto-Daoist texts, including the Nieye. However, I could not quickly find a concise definition. But from what I have read and understood, the nature of Oneness is a recurring theme whose meaning is not far from what Pregadio describes, but without the use of the Yijing cosmological model. Perhaps this from Ried will help.

 

The Guigu Zi is useful for the study of the Guan Zi’s “art of the heart-mind,” as it expands on these teachings and offers some confirmation as to the meaning of “oneness” in the Guan Zi, and elsewhere, where it refers to uniting facets of consciousness and energy.

 

Later, in a comparison of the Guanzi texts to DDJ Ch10 , He Shangong's commetary is cited.

 

Referring to Oneness, it is said:  “In a unified consciousness, there is no division.”

 

This sounds a lot like the undivided pre-celestial combination of Yin-Yang.

 

A fuller reading of the Thread of Dao will no doubt shed more light. Hope this is helpful.

Thanks for that great quote from Pregadio!

 

I was not aware of this "Thread of Dao" book.

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

4 hours ago, Bindi said:

I don't know what 'One' refers to in the Neiye, is it relevant in relation to DDJ42?  

it is the same "one'  in both texts = dao

[Bindi]

3 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

it is the same "one'  in both texts = dao

Thanks TT. But how does "Dao" as a translation of "one" work in this line of the Neiye 

1 Those able to transform One thing are called 'Spiritual'; 

 

or in the first line of the DDJ ch42

The Dao gives birth to the One.

 

 

 

 

[Pilgrim]

6 hours ago, OldDog said:

Kinda glad we came back to this discussion of one to two to three.

 

In The Way of the Golden Elixir, Pregadio gives a pretty decent explanation.

 

According to one of the ways in which this passage has been understood, the Dao first generates Unity, which comprises the two complementary principles of Yin and Yang. After Yin and Yang differentiate from one another, they again conjoin and generate the “three,” which is the product of their conjunction. The “ten thousand things” are the totality of entities produced by the continuous reiteration of this process.

 

This seems entirely consistent with early Daoist cosmology.

 

As I understand this, the Three is not a specific thing ... it's a metaphorical launch point for the 10,000 things.

 

As an aside ... but not entirely unrelated . .. ever notice how often "three" occurs in the ancient texts? The three Emperor's ... the three August Ones ... three days, three months, three years, etc. It's like "three" is an expression representing multiple occurrences, not literally three. It's almost Confucian in its sufficiency and correctness. Just saying.

 

 

3 Channels

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, OldDog said:

When it comes to trying to define terms commonly encountered in alchemical texts, I often refer to Pregadio. In his translation of Awakening the Tao, he involves a discussion of the cosmological model in his explanation of the origins. In his explication he talks about the distinction between pre-celestial and post-celestial. There he says:

 

In this view, the cosmos as we know it is the self-manifestation of the
Dao, which first determines itself as Oneness. Primal Oneness contains Yin and Yang in their pristine state; the joining of Yin and Yang generates the world. To appreciate the details of this view, it is convenient to follow the example of the alchemical texts and describe it through the emblems of the Book of Changes. Qian (pristine Yang) and Kun (pristine Yin) are constantly joined to one another in the state of Unity. Being joined Qian unceasingly bestows its essence to Kun, and Kun bri ngs it to achievement; thus the world with its countless events and phenomena is generated. However, due to the very fact of being continuously joined to one another, Qian becomes Li (Yang} , and Kun becomes Kan (Yin). Therefore the essence of the Yang principle in its pure state is now found within Kan. That principle, which is the One Breath of the Dao (the state of Unity represented by the undivided line), is what an alchemist seeks to recover.

 

But this is an understanding from a much later Daoist text. The question was asked what was the meaning in the Neiye. To look for the answer, I referred to Dan G Reid's Thread of Dao, a discussion of what he calls proto-Daoist texts, including the Nieye. However, I could not quickly find a concise definition. But from what I have read and understood, the nature of Oneness is a recurring theme whose meaning is not far from what Pregadio describes, but without the use of the Yijing cosmological model. Perhaps this from Ried will help.

 

The Guigu Zi is useful for the study of the Guan Zi’s “art of the heart-mind,” as it expands on these teachings and offers some confirmation as to the meaning of “oneness” in the Guan Zi, and elsewhere, where it refers to uniting facets of consciousness and energy.

 

I do like this sense where consciousness as shen and energy as qi are united, I have read that oneness refers to different things in different contexts, maybe this is one context? And other times it refers to Dao. 

 

edit: Unless of course uniting shen and qi (and jing) = realising Dao. Uniting yin and yang being a different issue. 

 

Quote

Later, in a comparison of the Guanzi texts to DDJ Ch10 , He Shangong's commetary is cited.

 

Referring to Oneness, it is said:  “In a unified consciousness, there is no division.”

 

This sounds a lot like the undivided pre-celestial combination of Yin-Yang.

 

A fuller reading of the Thread of Dao will no doubt shed more light. Hope this is helpful.

 

Edited April 14, 2019 by Bindi

[Limahong]

4 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

No and Yes.

 

Hi vonkrankenhaus,

 

"Because until some thing moves, there is no way to discern "Stasis" - nothing to compare it to to see that it is "Stasis".

 

WuJi means no polarity is there - no comparisons are possible.

 

This is what we could call "Stillness", but if it is, it is a "Stillness" we cannot discern.

 

It is "Nothing".

 

It isn't until we have the TaiJi that there is the polarity that enables us to discern.

 

And the first Movement is Yang because ALL Movement is Yang."

 

I am not lost with your above account even though it is laced with no, nothing, no, no, cannot, Nothing and isn't. The laces do not imply nonentities/nothingness but some awakening in ourselves is necessary to bring some consciousness into their beings? 

 

"It isn't until we have the TaiJi that there is the polarity that enables us to discern" ~ such a thought dances around Prakrti/Purusha of the Samkhya Philosophy that is recently introduced to me by my Guru-ji in India.

 

The 'Yin & Yang' dance steps and the 'Purusha & Prakrti'  steps can (I believe) be integrated into a bigger common Dance of Life.

 

"And the first Movement is Yang because ALL Movement is Yang" - I agree that generally Yang makes the first move. But without Yin, Yang cannot dance in tandem.

 

 

 

 

But sometimes Yin makes the first move and teaches Yang how to dance...

 

 

1 => 2 => 3 .... Like this? No? Yes. Come!

 

- Anand

Edited April 14, 2019 by Limahong
Correct errors.

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

3 Channels

 

The Nadis?

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

Thanks TT. But how does "Dao" as a translation of "one" work in this line of the Neiye 

1 Those able to transform One thing are called 'Spiritual'; 

its a mistranslation 一物能化谓之神，一事能变谓之智。

should be "those who have One and are able to transform with things are called Gods"

 

Quote

 

or in the first line of the DDJ ch42

The Dao gives birth to the One.

 

its the same situation as with god-father and god-son in Christianity. Both are supreme gods. Same here dao=one, one=dao.

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

its a mistranslation 一物能化谓之神，一事能变谓之智。

should be "those who have One and are able to transform with things are called Gods"

 

A much more understandable translation, the other one made no sense 

 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

its the same situation as with god-father and god-son in Christianity. Both are supreme gods. Same here dao=one, one=dao.

 

Interesting, thanks, I'll have to think about this one. 

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

A much more understandable translation, the other one made no sense 

 

 

Interesting, thanks, I'll have to think about this one. 

 

The One is the aspect of the Dao that can be spoken of. All that exists or has the potential to is exist.  That is why those who can control/transform the One are like gods/immortals.  But, as the TTC states, the One emerges from the Dao.

[OldDog]

A word about Dao and One.

 

I think you have to keep in mind the Daoist cosmological model. In that model,  the Dao is the originating unknowable from which issues the One, that state where Yin and Yang exist but are undifferentiated. At this point, it is still pre-celestial.  The post-celestial ... and generative ... state comes about when Yin and Yang move and distinguish themselves and their interaction produces Three ... or the 10,000 things.

 

So, Dao and One are not exactly the same thing but the One is close to the Dao and is endowed (have to resist a pun here ) with some of the nature of the Dao. The nature of Dao thus carries forth to all existence.

 

Now, exactly how people attain to this state of One ... or Oneness ... becomes a matter of methods which have evolved over time. What is clear ... at least to me ... is that in the Nieye the foundations are laid for the various (myriad?) ways of development.

 

For this mortal ... simple meditative practices may be all I can hope to attain. But perhaps this is suffcient for understanding.

[Pilgrim]

7 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

The Nadis?

Yes,  Ida, Pingala, Sushumna 

 

https://images.app.goo.gl/HuLJqDuPyr2rJk7U6

 

The Caduceus

 

https://images.app.goo.gl/73wiYYwX2VXJ37f59

 

There are more and the Tibetan traditions placement of the main 3 is different.

 

for example central channel is in front of the spin instead of centered within it.

 

Kriya makes use of front and rear inner walls of Sushumna which feel like a channel in front of spine and behind bur it is just the inner walls where the trigger points of the ports for the stems attached to the chakras can be felt.

 

front is outer world emanation rear is inner world absorption.

 

the two side channels are unwound and straightened. 🙂

[vonkrankenhaus]

6 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Same here dao=one, one=dao.

 

That would make the Way into a physical thing.

 

Dao is not a physical thing.

 

Even more, Dao is not a physical thing physically producing another physical thing - like a factory.

 

Dao is not a factory or an industry.

 

It's just the Way things happen.

 

Not the things themselves.

 

Easy to name thing. Not easy to name all the ways everything happens.

 

So we just say "Way" (Dao) and then we say: don't get stuck on that name - it doesn't describe a "thing".

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[dawei]

20 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Regarding the heart in alchemy there is this

Chinese woodblock illustration of neidan "Cleansing the heart-mind and retiring into concealment", 1615 Xingming guizhi 性命圭旨 (Pointers on Spiritual Nature and Bodily Life).  

 

This kind of shows my point... now you're referencing something almost 2,000 years later.  And the Neiye doesn't talk about cleansing the heart.

[dawei]

23 hours ago, OldDog said:

As I understand this, the Three is not a specific thing ... it's a metaphorical launch point for the 10,000 things.

 

As an aside ... but not entirely unrelated . .. ever notice how often "three" occurs in the ancient texts? The three Emperor's ... the three August Ones ... three days, three months, three years, etc. It's like "three" is an expression representing multiple occurrences, not literally three. It's almost Confucian in its sufficiency and correctness. Just saying.

 

 

7 hours ago, OldDog said:

A word about Dao and One.

 

I think you have to keep in mind the Daoist cosmological model. In that model,  the Dao is the originating unknowable from which issues the One, that state where Yin and Yang exist but are undifferentiated. At this point, it is still pre-celestial.  The post-celestial ... and generative ... state comes about when Yin and Yang move and distinguish themselves and their interaction produces Three ... or the 10,000 things.

 

So, Dao and One are not exactly the same thing but the One is close to the Dao and is endowed

 

Curiously, I didn't find 'three' in any other ancient chinese cosmology models.  

 

Such thoughts are what lead me to explore them in these past threads:

 

Cosmology in Ancient Chinese Text

 

The Great one is not Dao

 

[Limahong]

6 hours ago, OldDog said:

(T)he Dao is the originating unknowable from which issues the One, that state where Yin and Yang exist but are undifferentiated.

 

Hi OldDog,

 

Yes. The more I try to know about the Dao, the more I realize how shallow and hollow I am. This realization has humbled me.

 

I am still trying to fathom 'What is the Dao?' in relation to 'Who am I?'

 

If I do not know myself well, I will bow to the Dao from a distance... whilst on a road less traveled.

 

I recently squared off with my Guru-ji face-to- face whilst he was in Singapore. Why?

 

I was coming on 'monistic' with the Dao, and Guru-ji is 'dualistic' with the Samkhya philosophy.

 

I refused to have anything to do with him for a few days even though I kept on making for him his favorite curry puffs.

 

But just before left for home in India, he asked me to see him. When we met up, nothing had happened and we love each other even more...

 

Now I am hooked on Brahman and Guru-ji is to be blamed.

 

And Guru-ji is still hooked on my puffs ~ he brought back 20 frozen puffs to India.

 

My parting shot to him ~ "I will be a good boy". Why?

 

To me the Dao is also about respect, humility and TRUST.

 

- Anand

 

 

[Limahong]

41 minutes ago, dawei said:

"Cleansing the heart-mind and retiring into concealment".

 

Hi dawei,

 

I am not going to find out what is 'Neiye' anytime soon, but such cleansing is important to me.

 

10 minutes ago, dawei said:

Curiously, I didn't find 'three' in any other ancient Chinese cosmology models.

 

The following depicts 'three'... in our hearts?

 

 

A + B => C => ...

 

- Anand

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, dawei said:

 

This kind of shows my point... now you're referencing something almost 2,000 years later.  And the Neiye doesn't talk about cleansing the heart.

 

You said "... The central role of the heart (Xin) is interesting too as that is not the emphasis in most alchemy works..."

 

So I posted an alchemical illustration where cleansing the heart was relevant in neidan. As for the Neiye, it is primarily concerned with cleansing and cultivating the heart, as you seemed to say yourself in your previous post?

[Bindi]

A possible understanding of this one-two-three from an alchemical perspective might be that as soon as the LDT starts to be cultivated, the One that was resting there as potential (in the LDT which until then also only existed as potential) gives birth to the initial two, yin/yang first referred to as a girl and a boy. When cultivated and brought up to consciousness in the UDT this yin/yang dyad give birth to a new energy pattern that exists between them, something quite 'Daoish' and generative.

[dawei]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

You said "... The central role of the heart (Xin) is interesting too as that is not the emphasis in most alchemy works..."

 

So I posted an alchemical illustration where cleansing the heart was relevant in neidan. As for the Neiye, it is primarily concerned with cleansing and cultivating the heart, as you seemed to say yourself in your previous post?

 

I didn't see the Neiye as suggesting a practice of cleansing but regulating and maintaining/calming/settling.    

[OldDog]

3 hours ago, dawei said:

Curiously, I didn't find 'three' in any other ancient chinese cosmology models.  

 

Perhaps not in cosmology models per se. But I did a quick search through several texts I have in electronic form, including Laozi, Zhuangzi, Liezi and the Wilhelm/Baynes I Ching. I found many examples of the use of three as adjective and as a proper noun.

 

It has just always struck me that such use of three seems disproportionally frequent. Maybe there is nothing to it.

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, dawei said:

 

I didn't see the Neiye as suggesting a practice of cleansing but regulating and maintaining/calming/settling.    

 

Ok, I read it as do the necessary work and the heart will then return to its natural state eg.

 

7 If you are able to cast off sorrow, happiness,

8 joy, anger, desire and profit-seeking,

9 Your Heart will return to its natural flow

 

11 The Way's sensation:

12 How can you be in tune with its sound?

13 Cultivate your Heart and you will resonate in tune.

14 The Way thereby can be attained

 

1 The Way has no fixed position;

2 In the cultivated Heart, it gracefully abides.

3 When the heart is calm and Energy aligned

4 The Way can thereby repose.

 

I take "cultivate" as casting off "sorrow, happiness, joy, anger, desire and profit-seeking." When the heart returns to its natural flow, it should then effortlessly resonate with the Way/Dao. 

[Jeff]

7 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Ok, I read it as do the necessary work and the heart will then return to its natural state eg.

 

7 If you are able to cast off sorrow, happiness,

8 joy, anger, desire and profit-seeking,

9 Your Heart will return to its natural flow

 

11 The Way's sensation:

12 How can you be in tune with its sound?

13 Cultivate your Heart and you will resonate in tune.

14 The Way thereby can be attained

 

1 The Way has no fixed position;

2 In the cultivated Heart, it gracefully abides.

3 When the heart is calm and Energy aligned

4 The Way can thereby repose.

 

I take "cultivate" as casting off "sorrow, happiness, joy, anger, desire and profit-seeking." When the heart returns to its natural flow, it should then effortlessly resonate with the Way/Dao. 

 

Good stuff and worth a repeat...