New to Forum

[Wondo]

Hello All,

 

ihave visited the forum a few times in the past and decided to join. I originally started out my spiritual path heavily influenced by Taoism. That was almost 30years ago and finding a teacher then was way much harder than it lull be today, so I eventually ended up studying Zen with several masters eventually leading me in to the Korean Soen tradition which I have been a part of for almost 20 years and have become a teacher (not a master) in that tradition. I am also certified in mindfulness based interventions which is a lot of the work I do with people these days in the secular world. 

 

I have also also studied Taiji and QiGong for about as long as my interest in Taoism started. Recently, due to some old back issues getting worse, I put more focus on my Taiji and QiGong and have had good results which eventually led me back into further exploring Taoism and internal alchemy. I have some questions around this and would like some guidance from forum members. I will post them here in a separate post.

[Fa Xin]

Hello, Wondo, and welcome.

 

Your membership is approved and we're happy you found your way to us. We look forward to accompanying you on some of the way that you still have to go.

 

Please take the time to read the post pinned at the top of this Welcome page and take a look at the forum Terms and Rules.   This covers all you need to know when getting started.

 

For the first week you will be restricted to ten posts per day but after that you can post as much as you like. Also, until you’ve posted fifteen times in the forums, you’ll be a “Junior Bum” with somewhat restricted access and will be allowed only two private messages per day.

 

Good luck in your pursuits and best wishes to you,

 

Fa Xin and the TDB team

 

Welcome wondo,

 

Sounds like you have a great background and experience. Looking forward to reading your questions and your posts. Enjoy the forums 😊

 

You are welcome to jump right in to the ongoing discussions, revive an older thread, start a new thread of your own, or start a discussion in the "Newcomer Corner" sub-forum to expand on your introduction or ask general questions to help you get started.

 

May you enjoy your time here.

 

Fa Xin

[thelerner]

Welcome to the site.  I hope at some point you can tell us a little bit about Korean Soen Buddhism.   We have quite a large Buddhist following here and its nice to learn about the different sects.  I for one never heard of Soen before, it'd be interesting to read about its influences and differences. 

[Fa Xin]

1 hour ago, thelerner said:

Welcome to the site.  I hope at some point you can tell us a little bit about Korean Soen Buddhism.   We have quite a large Buddhist following here and its nice to learn about the different sects.  I for one never heard of Soen before, it'd be interesting to read about its influences and differences. 

Yes, I’m curious too 😊 Is it related to Zen?

[Marblehead]

Hi Wondo.  Welcome.

 

I will talk Taoism with you whenever I can.

 

[ernobe]

Good to see you decided to join.  A little belated, but then TTC 64 says,

 

Quote

The journey of a thousand li starts from where one stands.

 

[Wondo]

Hello and thank you for the warm welcome from everyone so far. 

 

I will address some of the questions here about Soen. 

 

Soen is the Korean word for Zen. Not a lot of people know about it. However, when the Indian form of Zen (Dhyana) came to China it was called Channa and then called Chan for short. Chan went to Korea long before it went to Japan where it became called Zen as we know it today in our American vernacular. 

 

Buddhism came to China in the 2nd Century and then to Korea in the 4th Century and arrived in Japan in the 6th Century. Chan came to China in the 6th Century and Korea in the 7th Century, but did not come to Japan until the 12th Century. Interestingly Daoism (Called Do in Korea) came to Korea in the early part of the 5th Century right after Buddhism arrived 100 years earlier. What is fascinating about it is how much of the original Chinese influence is seen in Korean Buddhism and Korean Zen and the influence of Taoism that still remains. 

 

I had studied Japanese Zen for several years before ending up in the Korean lineage. It was only through chance that this happened. I did not seek it out. 

 

One thing of importance to note is that when Chan came to Korea, it was before there was a division of schools leaving primarily the   the Linji (Rinzai) and Caodong (Soto) schools which became the two prominent schools in Japanese Zen that survive today. 

 

Therefore, Soen looks a lot like the Chan that existed before these divisions had occurred. Although in Korea, different mountain practice sites had some variations in teaching styles just as had happened in China. 

 

Much to my delight, when encountering Soen was just how much it has stayed connected to some of the early patriarchs of Chan like some of my favorites including Sengcan, Daoxin, Huangbo, Huineng, and Dahui. In particular, Korean Soen was heavily influenced by Dahui which not only used Kong-ans (jp. Koans) but also used the Hwadu (ch. Hua Tou). The Hwadu looks at short phrases in meditation like "What is this?" "What am I?", etc. The answer to this is "Don't Know"  The practice of Don't Know is a practice that goes back a ways in Korean Soen. Chinul, a Korean teacher in the 12th Century was big on revising the practice of Dahui and using the Hwadu. Dahui also believed that although Kong-an and Hwadu practice were important, he also believed that the teachings of Confucius and Laozi were just as important. 

 

I personally believe that the practice of Hwadu and the practice of Don't Know is a lot like what Zhuangzi taught in IC 6 of the Zhuangzi about sitting and forgetting which obviously parallels the Taoist practice of Zuowang. 

 

I hope all of this is helpful and forgive me if I have stated things which may be incorrect. I have shared this with the best of my knowledge of the subject. 

 

This brings me to where I would like some guidance if possible. 

I will post this in a separate post here in this thread so that this one does not end up being too long. 

 

Thanks. 

 

 

[Jeff]

You are starting to feel/notice energy.  It is time to start expanding the polarities.

[Wondo]

Where I would like further guidance. 

 

It would seem to me that Soen practice is very much akin to the Daoist practices of Jing Zuo (Clarity and Tranquility) and Zuowang (Sitting in Oblivion), Shou yi (Guarding the One), and baopu (Embracing Simplicity). There are many debates out there of which came first Chan or Daoism? 

 

From my limited perspective, I think that both were pointing to the same thing and that Buddhism fell on fertile ground in areas where Daoism was already being practiced. Although later there was competition between the two schools, I think that both schools borrowed from each other along the way and exchanged ideas and practices which later makes it hard to see the difference between the two. 

 

However, that being said, there are differences; at least it appears that way at first. Buddhism does not typically deal with things like internal alchemy. But, when you look deeply, it does. For example the 8 Brocades has a Buddhist version which either came from Buddhism or was adopted by the Buddhists from the Daoists. In doing the 8 Brocades from the Buddhist perspective, one usually does abdominal breathing and in Daoism one does it with reverse breathing or embryonic breathing.

 

In my daily practice, I have primarily been sitting Zen for over 25 years. It involves the practice of Hwadu, Kong-ans, and both of these lead to the practice of "Don't Know" mind. 

 

In addition to this, I practice the standing version of 8 Brocades as well as several forms of Yang Taiji  and some Baguazhang. In those practices I typically use reverse breathing to help with cultivating and circulating Qi. Recently, however, I have also been working with the seated version of 8 Brocades which I use some reverse breathing and abdominal breathing. This includes rousing and rinsing the saliva and focusing on the microcosmic orbit. 

 

The point of my question is....is all of this internal alchemy necessary? I have read in books on Clarity and Tranquility and Zuowang where just doing these practices is already brining about some of the alchemical changes that happen in some of the other methods that focus specifically on internal alchemical techniques. For me, reverse breathing is easy. Swallowing the saliva and setting up the cauldron is also an easy, albeit tedious practice. 

 

The reason I am asking is that in order for me to keep up my Zen practice and my Taiji and Qi Gong practice, adding in the internal alchemical practices is now requiring more time, of which in practicality, all of this is very hard to fit in to my daily routine. 

 

I hope I am being clear with this and any advice would be helpful.

 

Thanks. 

[Wondo]

6 minutes ago, Jeff said:

You are starting to feel/notice energy.  It is time to start expanding the polarities.

 

I have noticed the energy for quite some time. When I practice, I use deep abdominal breathing and I feel heat and deep tranquility. Just wondering if I should get involved more deeply in specific alchemical practices or if that is something that I am already covering in my Zuowang type of practice?

[Jeff]

34 minutes ago, Wondo said:

 

I have noticed the energy for quite some time. When I practice, I use deep abdominal breathing and I feel heat and deep tranquility. Just wondering if I should get involved more deeply in specific alchemical practices or if that is something that I am already covering in my Zuowang type of practice?

 

You will find much debate on such a question here, and I think it sort of depends on what you see as your goal. In my opinion, your question fits very well with the old Zen quote of... First there is a mountain, then the mountain is gone, and then ultimately the mountain exists again...

 

Your current approach is one of simply trying to make the mountain go away. While this can be effective at your current level of “clarity”, it is ultimately more challenging as it is kind of like trying to dig a hole (or quiet space in mind), but not actively working expand the horizontal space of the hole, which is what I meant by my earlier comment around expanding the polarities.

 

In more classical Buddhism, you are at the point now where you would want to start more practices like deity yoga. In more Taoist terms, the next phase would be more about expanding the energy flow beyond your own body, which is hard to do without more “stretching” of your conscious mind so that it integrates more with the subconscious aspect.