Qigong : Repression Dependence Inhuman

[rideforever]

However much good qigong does for us, is it really natural for a human being do these kinds of movements ?
I have been experimenting with spontaneous qigong and also these movement healing CD :
https://dragonrising.com/store/emotrance_energy_dancing/1/

And they are quite good.   

 

If we do qigong, with these trained movements, follow this do that and so on .... what's this all about really ?
Are we robots ?   Are we so desperate that submitting to being robots is our only choice ?
Is there not spirit and energy within us that will heal us and fulfil us if we just let it do it's thing ?

Do we or our teacher really know better than this ancient body ?
Is doing programmed movements .... is that going forward, or going backwards ?
And if we wish to harness the energy of the body .... is doing more programmed movements the right thing or are we just getting in the way ... are we refusing to listen ... refusing to create environments of listening.
 

Anyway, I was watching Sifu Jenny Lamb's Liuhebafa and I thought it was quite amazing and that her spontaneous qigong practices must have really given her something quite rare.   So that her body;'s energy had been helped to flow freely wisely, and then she had learnt Liuhebafa on top of that.  Quite spectacular in my opinion.

 

And what's the vision for our future.   
One grandmaster after another.   
One dependency after another ?
Every time we bow down and kiss the feet, aren't we really stabbing ourselves in the back ?

And even if we wish to become free, how could it be done ?
We are never ever ever going to be other than what we are, isn't it about time we found out ?

 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

On 2018-08-29 at 9:53 AM, rideforever said:

However much good qigong does for us, is it really natural for a human being do these kinds of movements ?
(...)   

 

If we do qigong, with these trained movements, follow this do that and so on .... what's this all about really ?
(...)
 

Do we or our teacher really know better than this ancient body ?
Is doing programmed movements .... is that going forward, or going backwards ?
And if we wish to harness the energy of the body .... is doing more programmed movements the right thing or are we just getting in the way ... are we refusing to listen ... refusing to create environments of listening.
(...)
We are never ever ever going to be other than what we are, isn't it about time we found out ?

 

 

Listen, i do not mean to define who you are or what you think but you seem to be in a place where confrontation and defensive anger is driving part of your reasoning lately, as if the  world around you is closing in with its oppressive rigidity and despair.

What you wrote the other day about how you see parts of the world (OT i know but bear with me) made me so very sad, you obviously have drive and discipline but choose to fence you potential in by clinging and drawing boundaries that reinforce and help create those very horrors. This is not an attempt to jumble or confuse, i think you agree that we create our own reality in part, its just a very dark place for you and i dont think it has to be.

 

The movements that you speak of and the knowledge are not necessarily relating to eachother as you describe them. What you say of us knowing ourselves directly in a truthful manner is correct, and the movements that the arts incorporate are not magical or mechanical, they are not conductive towards that goal by themselves.

 

All movements a human being can do are natural, quite literally. Especially those weird ones that seem to be unique for some people, they are very natural. Even those movements that involve bizarre and repulsive actions, effects or results. If a human does them they are natural.

 

The movements, our teachers (the good ones moreso of course) and all are methods of exploration. The movements, teachers, schools and ideas are ”merely” the means by which the investigation, observation, experience and insight are enabled and contucted.

 

Since time immemorial humans have had an unnerving talent for being stubborn, self decieving, impatient and suckers for the easiest explanations and reasonings. We, as a spieces, are insanely intelligent and creative while we are also about as clever and disciplined as a bucket of jello.

Funny thing is that one of our most despised (periodically at least) traits, namely Lazyness, could be said to be our foremost motivator for creative and honest invention and scrutiny.

 

But there is another kind of lazyness that is part of vanity, fear and self centeredness that drives us to not look closer and integrate but rather discriminate, falsify and favor essence over suchness.

Some of us have to reinvent the wheel, some understand the transmitted design, some are just fine seeing a wheel turn inside their minds and believe they are cleverer than Einstein, many more yet do other stuff.

But that discriminating mind who extracts theoreticals and tries to abstract generalized truths out of specifics, summarily destroying its connection to reality and its power of influence and action within reality itself by its own potential and existing means is what makes these programmed and seemingly unnatural movements necessary.

Most of us do exactly what you speak of, refuse to listen and get in the way. I do it, you do it. The more we are conditioned into it the harder it is for us to just suddenly snap out of it. Methodology helps us keep track of the work. A set pattern of something helps us keep ourselves in shape and organized to develop our ability to see clearly.

 

Neidan classics and commentaries refer to what i talk about in the above paragraph as the conditioned state the remedy for which is the Inferior Virtue of practicing Nei Dan and studying it by the transmitted methods.

 

What you are talking about in your OP is called the Highest Virtue, meaning exactly that any person is fully capable of doing exactly all of it without the mysticky, woo-y, weird movements while wearing pajamas and saying gibberish stuff. Yet, very few people actually do so. Those that do often dont even recognize that they have realized a firm Unity and maybe never even lost connection to reality. I do not know anybody who has, i’ve never met one. I have however met people who have realized the Golden Elixir by other methods than cultivating the Great and Small Medicine.

 

The ultimate goal is to know ourselves and our place in reality, gain real knowledge and stop being a false self in a deluded world. This means washing away everything we hold for true, everything we feel and have opinions about because its impossible, in the beginning to see whats whatand whats false. The methods of chinese classical study are superficially false, but transmitted by those who have learned to use them to enter the not-false, the no-thing etc they have value as gates toward exactly the goal you speak of.

 

Imho.

 

5k, ploughs to swordshards.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Mudfoot]

On 2018-08-29 at 9:53 AM, rideforever said:

 

Is there not spirit and energy within us that will heal us and fulfil us if we just let it do it's thing ?

What if life condition us to not let spirit and energy do it's thing? 

And what we believe is a spontaneous Flow is just flow going where the path of least resistance is, thus bypassing the places where work need to be done? 

 

Methods develop to meet expedient needs, the question is just "what do I need?" 

[sustainablefarm86]

xx

Edited July 23, 2022 by King Jade

[CityHermit!]

"Programmed movement" sounds like a loaded term, one could describe most kinds of exercise that way. There are a lot of better things to question or criticize as far as what is "natural" as well. I'm not really sure what's being said here, is this about practice itself or teachers?

[AugustGreig]

OP I completely understand where you are coming from, at least from my own perspective. I am very high in trait openness, and thus don't care for structure. Nothing will ever change this. But as much as I'd like to drift in the æther, I still live in a house, work in a building and exist with a body.

 

Allow me to talk about Bruce Lee and the Tao of Jeet Kun Do. Bruce felt the same way you do, and wanted liberation. He said,"Until a man has four arms and three legs, there can be only one martial art." However, to arrive at that point, Bruce studied many forms and styles, including wing Chun. But eventually he settled on a combination of boxing, fencing, savate, with a touch of wing Chun and a fundamental understanding of wrestling and grappling. He used systems to achieve liberation from systems, the way we use body and mind to achieve liberation from body and mind.

 

I'll put it a simpler way. John Coltrane was an amazing improviser. Freedom. However, that freedom came from a fundamental understanding of music theory, and a practice in the style of the blues. Only when you learn the rules can you begin to transcend them or use the to your advantage, almost like a fulcrum. The chances of a person, including Coltrane himself, being able to pick up an instrument and just play it freely to that transcendant state that can elevate an entire generation of people with you, is extremely unlikely.

 

Structure protects us. That is it's purpose.

Edited September 24, 2018 by AugustGreig

[OldDog]

So, it seems here that the answer to OPs original inquiry has to do with transcendence through forms. Its not that the form is special and must be adhered to ... more at, use the form to develop and expand your ability ... approaching transcendence of form.

 

I've heard many a martial arts master talk of transcending the forms ... the form of no form. The Liuhebafa example possibly being a case in point. 

 

How would qigong be any different? Energy (qi) wants to move. But energy/qi can stagnate. Physical forms assist in energy/qi movement ... help develop awareness. Overcoming physical limitations opens up for intent and spirit to be involved. Transcendence would seem reachable.