Communism and taoism

[exorcist_1699]

When the communist came to power in 1949, the taoist masters retreated into the deep mountains as they repeatedly had done in the past 2,500 years. The taoist thought then would hide for decades , like the ebbing along the sea shore . It might sound sad , however, with so immense a power grasped in their hands, the masters are forbidden to interfere the development of human affairs or history. Just like a small group of zoologists who study the behavior of chimpanzee in a huge forest , no matter how bloody and pitiful they find the quarrels among these living things ,with appearance so similar to us , they must stay indifferent and not to intervene.

 

The masters never worry about whether communism can conquer China in any cultural senses; nor do they, like the Buddhists , think that most of the people can be rescued . They know that the bounce of taoism , like a rising tide ,is inevitable ; yet even this fact is not their concern .What they are eager to find , same as thousands years ago, is whether one from ten thousands of people , a guy to whom the secret of "qi" be taught , and the continuation of the legacy of Tao. [/size]

Edited February 5, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[wudangspirit]

Great topic!

 

This is so true. My Master and Grandmaster experienced this during the cultural revolution at Wudangshan. My Master, being the youngest one to be accepted at Wudangshan, hid from the red guard. However, because of their ages, my Master being six at that time and Grandmaster being almost 100 nobody really bothered them much. That is some strategy, huh?! So they were able to practice and cultivate until my Master attained the level the was satisfying to my Grandmaster Li and was sent out to the West to teach the rest of us.

 

So the lineage at Wudangshan continues.....

 

Wudangspirit

 

When the communist came to power in 1949, the taoist masters retreated into the deep mountains as they repeatedly had done in the past 2,500 years. The taoist thought then would hide for decades , like the ebbing along the sea shore . It might sound sad , however, with so immense a power grasped in their hands, the masters are forbidden to interfere the development of human affairs or history. Just like a small group of zoologists who study the behavior of chimpanzee in a huge forest , no matter how bloody and pitiful they find the quarrels between these living things ,with appearance so similar to us , they must stay indifferent and not to intervene.

 

The masters never worry about whether communism can conquer China in any cultural senses; nor do they, like the Buddhists , think that most of the people can be rescued . They know that the bounce of taoism , like a rising tide ,is inevitable ; yet this fact is even not their concern .What they are eager to find , same as thousands years ago, is whether one from ten thousands of people , a guy to whom the secret of "qi" be taught , and the continuation of the legacy of Tao.

[MASTERforge]

This is a topic I have thought of often.

 

Do I retire from the world and find my little space where I can forget about the petty squabbles of humanity or do I take what I have learned and try to make the world a better place?

 

Is it selfish for me to run off and leave the children to argue and fight? Or do I try to teach them to play together nicely?

 

Or would my interfering be just part of the problem and I would only get tangled in the web?

 

Personally I prefer to be in the world neck deep in the mire because occasionally you will find gold in the goodness of people.

[exorcist_1699]

Both Taoism and Buddhism were in their decline when the Chinese communists came to power in 1949. Of course, as religious symbols of common people's belief , Taoist and Buddhist temples were always there for worship.

 

After the leave of two of the great masters ,Liu Hua Yang (柳華陽)and Li Xi Yue (李西月)by 1850's , there had been no great Taoist masters appearing for a century . Although the Wu-Liu school was to some extent known among the intellectuals , and strange Taoist jargons were now explained in clearer concepts , facing the influx of western culture ( Communism was one of them ) ,there was no Taoist master arose to explain the Tao/Qi's theory in its new historical context.

 

The most notable Taoist scholar was Chen Ying Nin (陳攖寧), a guy who is said to be the only person who had practiced the three Yuans of Taoism ( heaven, human and earth Yuan ),was then soon recruited into the official framework , and appointed as the chairman of the National Association Of The Chinese Taoists. Chen would later suffer in the Cultural Revolution , but no evidence shows that he was fascinated by the prevailing ideology in those turbulent years.

 

Buddhism was also in its decline . The last and most famous Zen monk, Sue Yun (虛雲), was at the age of 109 when the Communist came to power .Although still the most famous Buddhist figure in the country , his health was deteriorating .The decline of Buddhism was also found in the rise of the school of Pure land , and the decline of Zen school which happened gradually after Ming Dynasty ( 1368-1644 ) . Such a trend , in fact, symbolizes the gradually shrinkage of individual intuitional ability , an ability relying solely on its strength to grasp the deepest essence of emptiness ( Buddha), which ,inevitably leads to a will more dependent on the help of external sources for Enlightenment.

[Magda]

Maybe it's a little off-topic or strange, but am I the only one who selfishly thinks that there was something definitely good in all that? For example, if it was not for bad circumstances that forced some Tibetans choose life outside of Tibet, we could never have them teaching people in the West And if the Chinese had huge and grateful audience in China and very good circumstances, they probably wouldn't care to be known anywhere else.

[thelerner]

I wonder if you're over simplyfying it and particularly over emphasizing the power of a Taoist master. Temples were destroyed, many masters and monks were sent to gulag style re-education camps or just killed.

 

You may think of masters as powerful wizards, but in truth many taoist hermits are quiet shy people who've given there lives over to practicing alchemy and despite knowledge and decades of practice are just people like you and me.

 

I'm reminded of Franz Bardon, writier of many magical books, a renknowed Mage who died in a communist prison. Shit happens, when an army comes for you the only defense is not to be there.

 

 

Michael

[Magda]

You may think of masters as powerful wizards, but in truth many taoist hermits are quiet shy people who've given there lives over to practicing alchemy and despite knowledge and decades of practice are just people like you and me.

To say that they're people like you and me denies any of their achievements.

[Taoist81]

Maybe it's a little off-topic or strange, but am I the only one who selfishly thinks that there was something definitely good in all that? For example, if it was not for bad circumstances that forced some Tibetans choose life outside of Tibet, we could never have them teaching people in the West And if the Chinese had huge and grateful audience in China and very good circumstances, they probably wouldn't care to be known anywhere else.

 

 

This is simply not true. The Dalai Lama had already begun to reach out to the West in some ways before the invasion. Buddhists have never been ones to sit on their hands. After all, the Bodhisatva vow requires them to help others. All of the perceived "good" could, and in all likelihood would, have come about without the murders and rapes that went with the Communist take over of Tibet (not to say that everything was peachy there before).

[Ya Mu]

When the communist came to power in 1949, the taoist masters retreated into the deep mountains as they repeatedly had done in the past 2,500 years. The taoist thought then would hide for decades , like the ebbing along the sea shore . It might sound sad , however, with so immense a power grasped in their hands, the masters are forbidden to interfere the development of human affairs or history. Just like a small group of zoologists who study the behavior of chimpanzee in a huge forest , no matter how bloody and pitiful they find the quarrels among these living things ,with appearance so similar to us , they must stay indifferent and not to intervene.

 

The masters never worry about whether communism can conquer China in any cultural senses; nor do they, like the Buddhists , think that most of the people can be rescued . They know that the bounce of taoism , like a rising tide ,is inevitable ; yet even this fact is not their concern .What they are eager to find , same as thousands years ago, is whether one from ten thousands of people , a guy to whom the secret of "qi" be taught , and the continuation of the legacy of Tao. [/size]

 

You are forgetting that many if not most of the men of knowledge were jailed and tortured or killed and are making it sound like they were all powerful wizards that could have intervened if they simply wanted to.

 

It seems many have a very romanticized and storybook view of what a Taoist master is.

 

What my teacher, who was jailed and tortured and who remained in prison for 17 years said was, "All of China was insane at that time."

He only survived due to his qigong being very powerful. They would attempt to starve him, going without food OR water for many days and physically tortured him. They took his family to a labor camp and he did not know what happened to his family for the whole 17 years.

[exorcist_1699]

"Of course, as religious symbols of common people's belief , Taoist and Buddhist temples were always there for worship. "

 

I have to admit that my above description is not so correct , mainly that it is not true during the so-called Cultural Revolution period .

[Spectrum]

o06OqejP5tk

[Anabhogya-Carya]

Much like the paradox in Plato's cave. Do you go back into the cave to try and help (and probably fail), or do never return because you have found something greater?

[Spectrum]

If you've made it alone your stronger with a friend.

[wudangquan]

Everybody is talking about this like it's a historical footnote, and not (albeit on a lesser scale) still going on . . .

 

Nobody who's very good is teaching in public.

 

The stuff that anybody can get access to is a joke at best, and at worst leads you down a road that's pretty far away from the Tao (IMHO).

 

Anybody who thinks that the stuff that's being taught commercially is taught by cultivators and not circus monkeys is seriously deluded.

 

Real cultivators are still being tortured and killed by the truckload, but nobody cares because they aren't cultivating within a context where people can set up shop, create a downline, make money, or run sketchy mind control ops on people.

 

The real trouble is . . . That the most developed people are still in China, but almost nobody has access to them, and the guys who go out to the west on commercial teaching are usually the lowest of the low on the dog and pony show totem pole . . .

 

But take comfort in the fact that there are still a million people ready to give you that wall mountable certificate. Perfect for display in your home or office.

 

Also agree and co-sign with thelerner . . . Most masters themselves have a warped or inverted view of what "mastery" is . . .

 

The part of me that likes to get into mischief wants to poke people with sticks and see how far down the "my sifu is radder than your sifu" or "I gots the real mojo and you don't" rabbit hole the bums will go and then make a bigger point about cultivation, but . . . I already know what will happen so I won't.

 

Anyway the good stuff is not impossible to find in China or elsewhere. You just have to look for "good" stuff and be able to differentiate between small diamonds and tons of coal.

 

Hope I can get better at that myself.

[Ya Mu]

Everybody is talking about this like it's a historical footnote, and not (albeit on a lesser scale) still going on . . .

 

Nobody who's very good is teaching in public.

 

The stuff that anybody can get access to is a joke at best, and at worst leads you down a road that's pretty far away from the Tao (IMHO).

 

Anybody who thinks that the stuff that's being taught commercially is taught by cultivators and not circus monkeys is seriously deluded.

 

Real cultivators are still being tortured and killed by the truckload, but nobody cares because they aren't cultivating within a context where people can set up shop, create a downline, make money, or run sketchy mind control ops on people.

 

The real trouble is . . . That the most developed people are still in China, but almost nobody has access to them, and the guys who go out to the west on commercial teaching are usually the lowest of the low on the dog and pony show totem pole . . .

 

But take comfort in the fact that there are still a million people ready to give you that wall mountable certificate. Perfect for display in your home or office.

 

Also agree and co-sign with thelerner . . . Most masters themselves have a warped or inverted view of what "mastery" is . . .

 

The part of me that likes to get into mischief wants to poke people with sticks and see how far down the "my sifu is radder than your sifu" or "I gots the real mojo and you don't" rabbit hole the bums will go and then make a bigger point about cultivation, but . . . I already know what will happen so I won't.

 

Anyway the good stuff is not impossible to find in China or elsewhere. You just have to look for "good" stuff and be able to differentiate between small diamonds and tons of coal.

 

Hope I can get better at that myself.

 

GOOD POST!!!!!

 

I can't seem to get folks here in the west to understand that quite a lot of what they see called qigong or Chinese Spirituality (whether Taoist or Buddhist) quite probably originated either by, as you say, low-level teachers/scholars who migrated to the west, or by folks going to China, seeing someone do exercises in the park, and going up to them and saying "Are you a master?". And of course the person sees dollar signs and says yes, of course. So he shows the westerner a few exercises that may or may not have any meaning and said westerner comes back to California (sorry, you real knowing folks in California, but since a lot of things in the USA originate in California or New York I choose to use California as the example), becomes Master, teaches to students who become Master and he becomes GRAND Master and pretty soon a lot of pure bullshit is being taught as the real thing. I believe this has happened FAR more than most people realize.

And no, I'm not pointing the finger at any particular teaching and don't wish to get into any arguments about any particular qigong is better than what any particular person practices. I am just supporting and adding to what was said in the above post.

I also believe that each of us should use discernment in finding a form to practice and not practice it unless we resonate with it.

[宁]

sorry guys but i can't agree with you... you see, it's easy to put things this way, but in fact this state of facts doesn't leave one with too much options..

if your effort is to try and show that there is so much beyond what we think it's Daoism and Buddhism, hell yeah, you're doing a great job...

otherwise, i don't agree with this stance.

the simple fact that we are alive gives us access to the Force.

it depends on the individual's own ability and power to progress outside his nutshell, to deepen his connection with the Force...

no matter how small or big this may seem, no master can take this away or give this to us... it's in every little one of us...

another flaw of this view of yours is that it makes the wonderer-seeker to start looking out for way-way beyound his head teachings and masters...

 

"Will you walk a little faster?" said a whiting to a snail.

"There's a porpoise close behind us, and he's treading on my

tail.

See how eagerly the lobsters and the turtles all advance!

They are waiting on the shingle--will you come and join the

dance?

 

Will you, won't you, will you, won't you, will you join the

dance?

Will you, won't you, will you, won't you, won't you join the

dance?

 

 

"You can really have no notion how delightful it will be

When they take us up and throw us, with the lobsters, out to

sea!"

But the snail replied "Too far, too far!" and gave a look

askance--

Said he thanked the whiting kindly, but he would not join the

dance.

Would not, could not, would not, could not, would not join

the dance.

Would not, could not, would not, could not, could not join

the dance.

 

`"What matters it how far we go?" his scaly friend replied.

"There is another shore, you know, upon the other side.

The further off from England the nearer is to France--

Then turn not pale, beloved snail, but come and join the dance.

 

Will you, won't you, will you, won't you, will you join the

dance?

Will you, won't you, will you, won't you, won't you join the

dance?"'

[exorcist_1699]

I find what Wudangquan and Ya Mu say ,besides those related to the ability of real masters, fascinating and agree most of what they say .

 

Real masters are not frightened by the turbulence of times, nor are they especially interested in emigrating to the West ; if talking about rescuing people , then there are a lot of people in China , comparing with those live relatively more comfortable in the West , need help .

 

In fact, only being taught some simple qigong techniques can let you heal a lot of diseases, and those " masters" are not reluctant to sell them at good price to people who are ignorant of its mechanism ; just like a lot of Chinese medicine priced only USDl.00- In China but can heal disease that costs you USD1,000.- to heal in the West .

Edited January 22, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[Ya Mu]

sorry guys but i can't agree with you... you see, it's easy to put things this way, but in fact this state of facts doesn't leave one with too much options..

if your effort is to try and show that there is so much beyond what we think it's Daoism and Buddhism, hell yeah, you're doing a great job...

otherwise, i don't agree with this stance.

the simple fact that we are alive gives us access to the Force.

it depends on the individual's own ability and power to progress outside his nutshell, to deepen his connection with the Force...

no matter how small or big this may seem, no master can take this away or give this to us... it's in every little one of us...

another flaw of this view of yours is that it makes the wonderer-seeker to start looking out for way-way beyound his head teachings and masters...

 

Nice story.

 

So it is a flaw to tell the truth about something?

OK, let's say I'll go along with you on this. In fact why don't you and I INVENT an ancient qigong system. I suggest Chinese sounding, some thing like:

 

Nee Hun Piao Liang Chi Kung

You can be the Grand Master and I'll be the Master. Our whole premise will be, "If you think you are pretty, then your energy will flow." And we will train others in this powerful system. The healing part will be "The Universe will flow all the energy you need to heal someone. All you have to do is think of roses."

We can offer the week long sessions for $1000.00 a pop. And if the student wishes a certificate that part of the "inner door" training will only be $5,000.

Is there anything wrong with this? According to my interpretation of your premise, no. Everyone already has this Force so we really don't need to do anything or tell them anything for them to become awesome healers. We will simply be allowing and giving them opportunity to discover the "Force" for themselves.

 

Sounds far-fetched, doesn't it?

Of course I have oversimplified it, but this isn't too far from what actually goes on.

We are simply trying to say it is buyer beware. If anyone is really interested in learning they WILL have to put much time & effort into doing so. The real teachers are available IF anyone is willing to put in the effort and discernment to find them. But they are NOT on every corner, the more powerful systems are much harder to find, and there is a LOT of misinformation out there.

 

I'll agree with you that everyone already has some "Force" or they would be dead.

 

May the Force be with you.

[lino]

In fact, only being taught some simple qigong techniques can let you heal a lot of diseases, and those " masters" are not reluctant to sell them at good price to people who are ignorant of its mechanism ; just like a lot of Chinese medicine priced only USDl.00- In China but can heal disease that costs you USD1,000.- to heal in the West .

 

Western medicine is not in the business of healing disease. It is in the business of putting people on expensive drugs that don't work. Other than to set a broken bone and put it in a cast, there is no real reason to go to a hospital.

[宁]

 

 

Nee Hun Piao Liang Chi Kung

You can be the Grand Master and I'll be the Master. Our whole premise will be, "If you think you are pretty, then your energy will flow." And we will train others in this powerful system. The healing part will be "The Universe will flow all the energy you need to heal someone. All you have to do is think of roses."

We can offer the week long sessions for $1000.00 a pop. And if the student wishes a certificate that part of the "inner door" training will only be $5,000.

Is there anything wrong with this? According to my interpretation of your premise, no. Everyone already has this Force so we really don't need to do anything or tell them anything for them to become awesome healers. We will simply be allowing and giving them opportunity to discover the "Force" for themselves.

 

Sounds far-fetched, doesn't it?

 

 

I don't think you (wanted to) understand what i've said.

So i'll make it that i didn't get your point either... and respond like this:

of course being 漂亮 makes a lot of energy flow towards you

whether you can use it to heal or not, i don't know

but i'm pretty sure it allows you a greater success in life, if used with the proper mindset

 

[Ya Mu]

I don't think you (wanted to) understand what i've said.

So i'll make it that i didn't get your point either... and respond like this:

of course being 漂亮 makes a lot of energy flow towards you

whether you can use it to heal or not, i don't know

but i'm pretty sure it allows you a greater success in life, if used with the proper mindset

 

 

I only understood what you wrote but perhaps not what you meant.

 

of course being 漂亮 makes a lot of energy flow towards you

whether you can use it to heal or not, i don't know

but i'm pretty sure it allows you a greater success in life, if used with the proper mindset

 

So all we have to have is the proper mindset. I see riches for us in our newly created bullshit qigong system. When do you want to have the first workshop? I suggest we hold it in New York. On 2nd thought, maybe we should find an old Chinese man to go in with us on this, because, after all, folks in the USA believe that if he is Chinese he HAS to know qigong. So we can make him the Ultimate Grand Master and cut him in for 30%.

 

The sad thing is:

1) It would probably be accepted as a qigong system in the USA

2) This would be just as legitimate and powerful as at least half of what comes out of China.

3) We would end up with many Masters teaching others

I can see it now, "Just breathe deep and allow your prettyness to flow."

 

 

If I took your meaning wrong, I apologize. Just having some fun with this.

But the fact is, and yes those who have actually searched and know the difference will all tell you this, there are few accessible teachers in China who are at the top of the qigong field. There are a lot of good doctors and tai chi players to choose from, but that doesn't make them know and embrace the truths of the highest forms of qigong.

 

Re-reading your original post, let me add:

You are correct in that we all have some "force" that we are born with. Absolutely.

You are correct in that the person has to achieve on his own; no teacher can do that for him. Absolutely.

 

What the teacher can do is help burn through illusions and optimize the efficiency of the process. Thousands of years of lineage knowledge and time & effort DO mean a whole lot in helping and allowing said student to achieve his destiny. Very difficult achieving said destiny when studying qigong that has no meaning.

[宁]

Mister, we can't seem to get through to each other... so let's leave it be.

 

I still don't think that one can learn too much from a High of the Highest masters.

We first have to meet people that are near our own level, and that means starting humble.

 

Peace

 

L1

[Ya Mu]

Mister, we can't seem to get through to each other... so let's leave it be.

 

I still don't think that one can learn too much from a High of the Highest masters.

We first have to meet people that are near our own level, and that means starting humble.

 

Peace

 

L1

 

I thought we were talking about qigong as that was what my original post was about. You must be talking about something else entirely. Sorry for the confusion.