Who is Thoth and how much of what we attribute to him is actually his?

[Theseekeroftruth1313]

So I have been looking but I don't think there is a thread on this topic specifically. Who was thoth, how much of what is his is actually his, and has anything that is actually his survived to today? As a sub question, was he aware of eastern practitioners and practices such as Mo pai, energy healing, etc? It just seems that my searches keep popping up the name of Hermes tristmagistus, and I am relatively sure that they are one and the same. There is enough wiggle room in  there tho that I'll accept if they are, in fact, not the same. 

[Michael Sternbach]

In brief, Thoth (a.k.a. Hermes Trismegistos) was considered to be the bringer of civilization in ancient Egypt. More specifically in regards to our topic, there is a body of philosophical as well as astrological, magical and alchemical texts attributed to him extant from Hellenistic Egypt, which earned him the reputation of having been  the founder of at least the 'Western' esoteric tradition.

 

These writings became extremely influential on Renaissance philosophers like Marsilio Ficino and Giordano Bruno. While at some stage they were recognized as having been composed at a much later date than originally believed, there is little doubt they reflect much of ancient Egyptian spirituality.

 

Who was Thoth really? Anybody investigating this question will be facing a thicket of fancy speculation, ancient myths and historic fact.

 

I think the best place to start is what the ancient Egyptians themselves had to say about Thoth. In their own view, Thoth is intrinsically linked to a time they referred to as Zep Tepi, a Golden Age, when the gods ruled directly on earth.

 

From chapter 44 of Graham Hancock's "Gods of the First Time":

 

Quote

According to Heliopolitan theology, the nine original gods who appeared in Egypt in the First Time were Ra, Shu, Tefnut, Geb, Nut, Osiris, Isis, Nepthys and Set.

 

The offspring of these deities included well-known figures such as Horus and Anubis. In addition, other companies of gods were recognized, notably at Memphis and Hermopolis, where there were important and very ancient cults dedicated to Ptah and to Thoth.1

 

 

And:

 

Quote

Renowned for her skilful use of witchcraft and magic, Isis was particularly remembered by the Ancient Egyptians as,

 

'strong of tongue', that is being in command of words of power 'which she knew with correct pronunciation, and halted not in her speech, and was perfect both in giving the command and in saying the word'.15

 In short, she was believed, by means of her voice alone, to be capable of bending reality and overriding the laws of physics. 

These same powers, though perhaps in greater degree, were attributed to the wisdom god Thoth who although not a member of the Heliopolitan Ennead is recognized in the Turin Papyrus and other ancient records as the sixth (or sometimes as the seventh) divine pharaoh of Egypt.

Frequently represented on temple and tomb walls as an ibis, or an ibis-headed man, Thoth was venerated as the regulative force responsible for all heavenly calculations and annotations, as the lord and multiplier of time, the inventor of the alphabet and the patron of magic. He was particularly associated with astronomy, mathematics, surveying and geometry, and was described as 'he who reckons in heaven, the counter of the stars and the measurer of the earth'.17

He was also regarded as a deity who understood the mysteries of 'all that is hidden under the heavenly vault', and who had the ability to bestow wisdom on selected individuals. It was said that he had inscribed his knowledge in secret books and hidden these about the earth, intending that they should be sought for by future generations but found 'only by the worthy' - who were to use their discoveries for the benefit of mankind.18 

What stands out most clearly about Thoth, therefore, in addition to his credentials as an ancient scientist, is his role as a benefactor and civilizer.19 In this respect he closely resembles his predecessor Osiris, the high god of the Pyramid Texts and the fourth divine pharaoh of Egypt,

'whose name becometh Sah [Orion], whose leg is long, and his stride extended, the President of the Land of the South ...'20

 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Michael Sternbach

[Apech]

11 hours ago, Theseekeroftruth1313 said:

So I have been looking but I don't think there is a thread on this topic specifically. Who was thoth, how much of what is his is actually his, and has anything that is actually his survived to today? As a sub question, was he aware of eastern practitioners and practices such as Mo pai, energy healing, etc? It just seems that my searches keep popping up the name of Hermes tristmagistus, and I am relatively sure that they are one and the same. There is enough wiggle room in  there tho that I'll accept if they are, in fact, not the same. 

 

Thoth is the Egyptian god which is equated to Hermes/Mercury - god of wisdom, mathematics, writing, healing and so on.  He is a very ancient god whose worship was centred in Khemenu (City of Eight = Hermopolis).  He is usually depicted as either Ibis or baboon headed - and has links to the moon.

 

One of his titles is 'pa-wr, pa-wr, pa-wr' which translates as three times great - this title is reflected in the Hermetic figure of Hermes Trismegistus.  (i.e.  Hermes thrice great).  As Michael has already pointed out the Hermetic Canon was largely attributed to him - but was written probably in the first few centuries AD in Greek.  There's been a lot of dispute over the centuries over the attribution but I think most scholars would say that Hermeticism is a mix of Ancient Egyptian and Babylonian, Kabbalah, Greek mystery schools, early Christian mysticism and Gnosticism.  This thinking flourished in places like Alexandria in northern Egypt.

 

It is well known that Alexander the Great (who founded Alexandria) had an empire which extended into Afghanistan and Northern India.  Not only that but the Silk Route to China intersected with his empire.  So the chances of the Egypto-Greeks having contact with Daoism and other eastern thought is 100%.  So no doubt there was some cross fertilisation between these cultures.

 

 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Apech

[Theseekeroftruth1313]

On 9/3/2018 at 6:13 AM, Apech said:

 

Thoth is the Egyptian god which is equated to Hermes/Mercury - god of wisdom, mathematics, writing, healing and so on.  He is a very ancient god whose worship was centred in Khemenu (City of Eight = Hermopolis).  He is usually depicted as either Ibis or baboon headed - and has links to the moon.

 

One of his titles is 'pa-wr, pa-wr, pa-wr' which translates as three times great - this title is reflected in the Hermetic figure of Hermes Trismegistus.  (i.e.  Hermes thrice great).  As Michael has already pointed out the Hermetic Canon was largely attributed to him - but was written probably in the first few centuries AD in Greek.  There's been a lot of dispute over the centuries over the attribution but I think most scholars would say that Hermeticism is a mix of Ancient Egyptian and Babylonian, Kabbalah, Greek mystery schools, early Christian mysticism and Gnosticism.  This thinking flourished in places like Alexandria in northern Egypt.

 

It is well known that Alexander the Great (who founded Alexandria) had an empire which extended into Afghanistan and Northern India.  Not only that but the Silk Route to China intersected with his empire.  So the chances of the Egypto-Greeks having contact with Daoism and other eastern thought is 100%.  So no doubt there was some cross fertilisation between these cultures.

 

 

But as the man(or God or Atlantian or etc.)did he write all these ancient works we attribute to him, or are we putting a catch all name to old esoteric writings? If someone that enlightened did in fact exist, wouldn't it be nice to know what is real and what's been misattributed. 

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, Theseekeroftruth1313 said:

But as the man(or God or Atlantian or etc.)did he write all these ancient works we attribute to him, or are we putting a catch all name to old esoteric writings? If someone that enlightened did in fact exist, wouldn't it be nice to know what is real and what's been misattributed. 

 

 

No-one really knows - however it was usual in the ancient world to attribute texts to the most revered masters.  For instance many texts are attributed to Lao Tzu apart from the TTC, even though they are written in different historical periods and must be by different people - its an honorific thing.  But in most cases a key text is written by the named master and so it is likely a historical figure bearing that name did exist.  If you look at it in terms of a lineage of teachings then any text which supports or transmits that teaching could be legitimately included in that corpus.  What is important of course is the ideas and the spiritual energy in the system.

 

 

[Nungali]

Probably best to see him as an 'archetype' .  Even better,  as a 'Neter' 

 

https://www.servantsofthelight.org/knowledge/the-egyptian-neters-part-1/

 

 

[CityHermit!]

Have a look at Taautos of the Phoenicians.

[!nverse]

Thoth = thought.

[yugenphoenix]

Love this thread! Cleared up a lot for me thank you gents! Im currently reading the “The Kyballion” and just blown away.

[helpfuldemon]

Historically speaking, a God is born in an Age, and in that Age certain things are discovered which are attributed to that God.  As time moves on, past discoveries are also attributed to that God, until it seems that that God was God all along, destroying the memory of the other Gods.  This would be true of Thoth, and many others. In the end its all GOD, a God with many names and faces.  

[Klinsly]

I'll add a random one I've read about to add into the discussion. No way to verify except a lot of what this guy said was true. According to Edgar Cayce in one of his akashic readings Thoth is Hermes, was the architect of the great pyramid, and also a previous incarnation of Jesus. I think this pushes the timeline back to 12,000 years ago.

 

As for being aware of eastern practices I don't know, I have an interesting theory that  all the practices came from Atlantis, and just got spread throughout the world after the Cataclysm and took on their own unique forms. So then yes he probably would have known about them in their highest original form. The different groups of teachers traveled around spreading them. Like the Egyptians and Indians were direct descendants of that civilization probably the Maya too. So the Chinese system was probably also one of these, but kept a more complete form similar to how the ancient Indian did while we lost most in the West. 

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Klinsly

[Nungali]

' Donnellyism' . view of  history / development ... which is actually a Victorian  ( and even current for some people ) paradigm, now well outdated ....  is based on white western expansionism / colonisation  justification .

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis:_The_Antediluvian_World

[hermes]

On 9/6/2018 at 2:01 AM, Theseekeroftruth1313 said:

But as the man(or God or Atlantian or etc.)did he write all these ancient works we attribute to him, or are we putting a catch all name to old esoteric writings? If someone that enlightened did in fact exist, wouldn't it be nice to know what is real and what's been misattributed. 

 

On 9/6/2018 at 2:08 AM, Apech said:

 

 

No-one really knows - however it was usual in the ancient world to attribute texts to the most revered masters.  For instance many texts are attributed to Lao Tzu apart from the TTC, even though they are written in different historical periods and must be by different people - its an honorific thing.  But in most cases a key text is written by the named master and so it is likely a historical figure bearing that name did exist.  If you look at it in terms of a lineage of teachings then any text which supports or transmits that teaching could be legitimately included in that corpus.  What is important of course is the ideas and the spiritual energy in the system.

 

 

 

According to the Egyptian historian Manetho he wrote 36,525 books which would certainly be a superhuman accomplishment. In another thread I just posted the main surviving texts attributed to Thoth-Hermes in ancient times:

 

[helpfuldemon]

As with all Gods, they become the current state of goodness that all the previous and now overthrown Gods possessed.  

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, helpfuldemon said:

As with all Gods, they become the current state of goodness that all the previous and now overthrown Gods possessed.  

 

Not always    ;  

 

 

Hymn to Proserpine (After the Proclamation in Rome of the Christian Faith)

By Algernon Charles Swinburne

 

Vicisti, Galilæe.

 

I have lived long enough, having seen one thing, that love hath an end;

Goddess and maiden and queen, be near me now and befriend.

Thou art more than the day or the morrow, the seasons that laugh or that weep;

For these give joy and sorrow; but thou, Proserpina, sleep.

Sweet is the treading of wine, and sweet the feet of the dove;

But a goodlier gift is thine than foam of the grapes or love.

Yea, is not even Apollo, with hair and harpstring of gold,

A bitter God to follow, a beautiful God to behold?

I am sick of singing; the bays burn deep and chafe: I am fain

To rest a little from praise and grievous pleasure and pain.

For the Gods we know not of, who give us our daily breath,

We know they are cruel as love or life, and lovely as death.

O Gods dethroned and deceased, cast forth, wiped out in a day!

From your wrath is the world released, redeemed from your chains, men say.

New Gods are crowned in the city; their flowers have broken your rods;

They are merciful, clothed with pity, the young compassionate Gods.

But for me their new device is barren, the days are bare;

Things long past over suffice, and men forgotten that were.

Time and the Gods are at strife; ye dwell in the midst thereof,

Draining a little life from the barren breasts of love.

I say to you, cease, take rest; yea, I say to you all, be at peace,

Till the bitter milk of her breast and the barren bosom shall cease.

Wilt thou yet take all, Galilean? but these thou shalt not take,

The laurel, the palms and the pæan, the breasts of the nymphs in the brake;

Breasts more soft than a dove's, that tremble with tenderer breath;

And all the wings of the Loves, and all the joy before death;

All the feet of the hours that sound as a single lyre,

Dropped and deep in the flowers, with strings that flicker like fire.

More than these wilt thou give, things fairer than all these things?

Nay, for a little we live, and life hath mutable wings.

A little while and we die; shall life not thrive as it may?

For no man under the sky lives twice, outliving his day.

And grief is a grievous thing, and a man hath enough of his tears:

Why should he labour, and bring fresh grief to blacken his years?

Thou hast conquered, O pale Galilean; the world has grown grey from thy breath;

We have drunken of things Lethean, and fed on the fullness of death.

Laurel is green for a season, and love is sweet for a day;

But love grows bitter with treason, and laurel outlives not May.

Sleep, shall we sleep after all? for the world is not sweet in the end;

For the old faiths loosen and fall, the new years ruin and rend.

Fate is a sea without shore, and the soul is a rock that abides;

But her ears are vexed with the roar and her face with the foam of the tides.

O lips that the live blood faints in, the leavings of racks and rods!

O ghastly glories of saints, dead limbs of gibbeted Gods!

Though all men abase them before you in spirit, and all knees bend,

I kneel not neither adore you, but standing, look to the end.

All delicate days and pleasant, all spirits and sorrows are cast

Far out with the foam of the present that sweeps to the surf of the past:

Where beyond the extreme sea-wall, and between the remote sea-gates,

Waste water washes, and tall ships founder, and deep death waits:

Where, mighty with deepening sides, clad about with the seas as with wings,

And impelled of invisible tides, and fulfilled of unspeakable things,

White-eyed and poisonous-finned, shark-toothed and serpentine-curled,

Rolls, under the whitening wind of the future, the wave of the world.

The depths stand naked in sunder behind it, the storms flee away;

In the hollow before it the thunder is taken and snared as a prey;

In its sides is the north-wind bound; and its salt is of all men's tears;

With light of ruin, and sound of changes, and pulse of years:

With travail of day after day, and with trouble of hour upon hour;

And bitter as blood is the spray; and the crests are as fangs that devour:

And its vapour and storm of its steam as the sighing of spirits to be;

And its noise as the noise in a dream; and its depth as the roots of the sea:

And the height of its heads as the height of the utmost stars of the air:

And the ends of the earth at the might thereof tremble, and time is made bare.

Will ye bridle the deep sea with reins, will ye chasten the high sea with rods?

Will ye take her to chain her with chains, who is older than all ye Gods?

All ye as a wind shall go by, as a fire shall ye pass and be past;

Ye are Gods, and behold, ye shall die, and the waves be upon you at last.

In the darkness of time, in the deeps of the years, in the changes of things,

Ye shall sleep as a slain man sleeps, and the world shall forget you for kings.

Though the feet of thine high priests tread where thy lords and our forefathers trod,

Though these that were Gods are dead, and thou being dead art a God,

Though before thee the throned Cytherean be fallen, and hidden her head,

Yet thy kingdom shall pass, Galilean, thy dead shall go down to thee dead.

Of the maiden thy mother men sing as a goddess with grace clad around;

Thou art throned where another was king; where another was queen she is crowned.

Yea, once we had sight of another: but now she is queen, say these.

Not as thine, not as thine was our mother, a blossom of flowering seas,

Clothed round with the world's desire as with raiment, and fair as the foam,

And fleeter than kindled fire, and a goddess, and mother of Rome.

For thine came pale and a maiden, and sister to sorrow; but ours,

Her deep hair heavily laden with odour and colour of flowers,

White rose of the rose-white water, a silver splendour, a flame,

Bent down unto us that besought her, and earth grew sweet with her name.

For thine came weeping, a slave among slaves, and rejected; but she

Came flushed from the full-flushed wave, and imperial, her foot on the sea.

And the wonderful waters knew her, the winds and the viewless ways,

And the roses grew rosier, and bluer the sea-blue stream of the bays.

Ye are fallen, our lords, by what token? we wise that ye should not fall.

Ye were all so fair that are broken; and one more fair than ye all.

But I turn to her still, having seen she shall surely abide in the end;

Goddess and maiden and queen, be near me now and befriend.

O daughter of earth, of my mother, her crown and blossom of birth,

I am also, I also, thy brother; I go as I came unto earth.

In the night where thine eyes are as moons are in heaven, the night where thou art,

Where the silence is more than all tunes, where sleep overflows from the heart,

Where the poppies are sweet as the rose in our world, and the red rose is white,

And the wind falls faint as it blows with the fume of the flowers of the night,

And the murmur of spirits that sleep in the shadow of Gods from afar

Grows dim in thine ears and deep as the deep dim soul of a star,

In the sweet low light of thy face, under heavens untrod by the sun,

Let my soul with their souls find place, and forget what is done and undone.

Thou art more than the Gods who number the days of our temporal breath;

Let these give labour and slumber; but thou, Proserpina, death.

Therefore now at thy feet I abide for a season in silence. I know

I shall die as my fathers died, and sleep as they sleep; even so.

For the glass of the years is brittle wherein we gaze for a span;

A little soul for a little bears up this corpse which is man.

So long I endure, no longer; and laugh not again, neither weep.

For there is no God found stronger than death; and death is a sleep.