Considering Yin and Yang to be the Tao

[lifeforce]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Classic-Way-Virtue-Translation-Translations/dp/0231105819/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1536171225&sr=8-3&keywords=The+Classic+of+Way+and+Virtue

 

Thank you.

[voidisyinyang]

19 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Why is Tao then said to have "produced the One" in the TTC? 

 

You are very close to understanding the secret of nonwestern 1:2:3:4 harmonics as the Tao. Daoism actually states that yang is 2/3 and yin is 3/4 - and so what is the "one"?

Study this image - click on it to enlarge it. Ask yourself what is the "one"?

 

For 6/8 to be 4/3 it is from the "one" being 0 to 8.

For 8/12 to be 3/2 it is from the "one" being 0 to 12.

For 6 to 12 being 2 then the "one" is from 12 to 0.

 

So this is the secret of nonwestern harmonics as the Dao. The "one" actually changes value as the infinite harmonics of yin and yang that are "undivided" at the same time - from the future and the past overlapping.

 

So to complete the above image we have to add the geometry - which is to say that 2/3 is C to F and 3/2 is C to G. So both are Yang but it is a different geometry and so the get 2/3 to be in the "same" ONE then it is doubled into 4/3 as C to F with 3/2 as C to G. Now what was yang as 2/3, C to F, is now yin as 4/3 C to F.

 

So that is the secret of the Single Perfect  Yang, it is the Dao as the future and the past overlapping such that 2/3 and 3/2 are both yang. This got covered up in Western logic by instead trying to "contain" the One into a closed geometry using symmetric math as logarithms. So then 9/8 became the basis for geometric magnitude - that everyone then learns as the square root of two. 9/8 cubed became the tritone as the square root of two.

 

See I didn't want to explain the above - that is the Western logic that everyone learns. So they have lost the secret of the Dao. Westerners see the numbers 1, 2, 3, and 10,000 things - and think it is counting.

 

No - it is not "counting" - it is called "noncommutative phase" in Western science and hardly anyone knows about this because it was covered up to create the symmetric math logic that everyone learns for logarithmic math.

 

Every human culture uses the nonwestern harmonics as natural tuning but the West lost what that means. You can not see the Dao - but you can listen to it. Or rather it listens to you. It's an eternal listening process as time-frequency energy.

 

 

[rene]

1 hour ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

Tao is the Way. The way things happen. "The way it goes" or "as things so happen".

 

.....

 

It might be that Tao is not the Way;

but rather that the Way is how Tao manifests.

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2018 by rene
Remove certainty. After all, even Tao is just an idea.

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, rene said:

 

It might be that Tao is not the Way;

but rather that the Way is how Tao manifests.

 

 

 

Curious response.

 

I always fall back on Tzujan when I reach that point.

 

[Bindi]

Neidan is a way of "returning to the Dao." The Dao must be able to be known and experienced at some point at least in the minds of neidan practitioners. 

 

Inferior virtue is the way of "doing" the Neidan practice in order to "return to the Dao." Liu Yiming

 

In Li Daochun's explication, the three stages of the Neidan practice consist in reverting from the "ten thousand things" to the Dao.

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

You are very close to understanding the secret of nonwestern 1:2:3:4 harmonics as the Tao. Daoism actually states that yang is 2/3 and yin is 3/4 - and so what is the "one"?

Study this image - click on it to enlarge it. Ask yourself what is the "one"?

 

For 6/8 to be 4/3 it is from the "one" being 0 to 8.

For 8/12 to be 3/2 it is from the "one" being 0 to 12.

For 6 to 12 being 2 then the "one" is from 12 to 0.

 

So this is the secret of nonwestern harmonics as the Dao. The "one" actually changes value as the infinite harmonics of yin and yang that are "undivided" at the same time - from the future and the past overlapping.

 

So to complete the above image we have to add the geometry - which is to say that 2/3 is C to F and 3/2 is C to G. So both are Yang but it is a different geometry and so the get 2/3 to be in the "same" ONE then it is doubled into 4/3 as C to F with 3/2 as C to G. Now what was yang as 2/3, C to F, is now yin as 4/3 C to F.

 

So that is the secret of the Single Perfect  Yang, it is the Dao as the future and the past overlapping such that 2/3 and 3/2 are both yang. This got covered up in Western logic by instead trying to "contain" the One into a closed geometry using symmetric math as logarithms. So then 9/8 became the basis for geometric magnitude - that everyone then learns as the square root of two. 9/8 cubed became the tritone as the square root of two.

 

See I didn't want to explain the above - that is the Western logic that everyone learns. So they have lost the secret of the Dao. Westerners see the numbers 1, 2, 3, and 10,000 things - and think it is counting.

 

No - it is not "counting" - it is called "noncommutative phase" in Western science and hardly anyone knows about this because it was covered up to create the symmetric math logic that everyone learns for logarithmic math.

 

Every human culture uses the nonwestern harmonics as natural tuning but the West lost what that means. You can not see the Dao - but you can listen to it. Or rather it listens to you. It's an eternal listening process as time-frequency energy.

 

 

 

Are you equating the Dao with 2/1? 

 

Two in One?

 

 

Edited September 5, 2018 by Bindi

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, Apech said:

 

lot's of duality?

 

 

Nassssty duality.

[Marblehead]

12 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Nassssty duality.

Not really as long as we keep it in perspective.

 

 

[rene]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

Curious response.

 

I always fall back on Tzujan when I reach that point.

 

 

Tzujan is a good place to land as self-so'ing is the Way.

 

Edited September 5, 2018 by rene
clarity

[Geof Nanto]

As to whether the word ‘Dao’ is best thought of as a noun or verb, Ames & Hall in their commentary on the Daodejing make some insightful general points in their interpretation of its classical Chinese language. They argue for a processual understanding of classical Daoist cosmology. If this account is persuasive, it means that the vocabulary that expresses the worldview and the common sense in which the Daodejing is to be located is first and foremost gerundive. Because "things" in the Daodejing are in fact active "processes" and ongoing "events," nouns that would "objectify" this world are derived from and revert to a verbal sensibility. The ontological language of substance and essence that is sedimented into the English language tends to defy this linguistic priority, insisting upon the primacy of "the world" rather than the process of the world "worlding" and the myriad things "happening." It is a fair observation that a careful reading of the introduction and this glossary are made necessary by the fact that our European languages can only most imperfectly "speak" the world being referenced in the Daodejing.

 

道 dao. Etymologically, the character dao 道 is constructed out of two elements: shu "foot," and hence, "to pass over," "to go over," "to lead through" (on foot), and shou首meaning "head"—hair and eye together—and therefore "foremost." The shou "head" component carries the suggestion of "to lead" in the sense of "to give a heading." Dao 道  is used frequently as a loan character for its verbal cognate dao 導, "to lead forth." Thus the character is primarily gerundive, processional, and dynamic: "a leading forth." The earliest appearance of dao is in the Book of Documents in the context of cutting a channel and "leading" a river to prevent the overflowing of its banks.

[KuroShiro]

21 hours ago, dawei said:

Realize all explanations are from yin and yang perspective, for the most part.

 

It is like a camera focus that can only show clearly the foreground or background but not the entire picture (ie: unfolding).

 

What one sees is accompanied by what one doesn't see. 

 

20 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

All explanations, or just for the most part? 

 

Are you saying my explanations like most are from yin/yang perspective, or all explanations are from yin/yang perspective? 

 

A camera focus is either/or,  foreground/background, but yin/yang are complementary and simultaneous when they unite. Uniting yin/yang would be to see foreground and background at the same time, and how they relate to each other as well as to other dual pairings like heaven/earth. 

 

 

 

Camera focus works with aperture - foreground and background shown at the same time.

 

Focus/Aperture; Distance/Focal Length; Yin/Yang

 

When are Yin/Yang not united?

[vonkrankenhaus]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

Neidan is a way of "returning to the Dao." The Dao must be able to be known and experienced at some point at least in the minds of neidan practitioners. 

 

Dao isn't a location. 

 

Dao isn't any kind of physical "it".

 

They mean "back to the source" where this is not a linear voyage to a physical "place", but means transcendence of Polarity - transcendence of Good/Bad and any other polarity.

 

That's what they are trying to experience - transcend duality (polarity) and unite with the One, the Universe.

 

Looking at Zhou Dunyi's TaiJiTu, this transcendence could be seen as a "reversal" of that, which is why this concept is there.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Bindi]

2 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

 

 

 

Camera focus works with aperture - foreground and background shown at the same time.

 

Focus/Aperture; Distance/Focal Length; Yin/Yang

 

When are Yin/Yang not united?

 

If there is internal conflict within a person then I would say Yin and Yang are not united or balanced, yin and yang are looking in opposite directions and have different objectives and different methods. When they are united they share their essence with each other and work cooperatively, their two different but complementary functions combine and order can be restored. 

 

“When the qi of yin and yang are not in harmony, and cold and heat come in untimely ways, all things will be harmed.” (Zhuangzi ch. 31) On the other hand, “when the two have successful intercourse and achieve harmony, all things will be produced.” (Zhuangzi ch. 21)

[Bindi]

5 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

Dao isn't a location. 

 

Dao isn't any kind of physical "it".

 

They mean "back to the source" where this is not a linear voyage to a physical "place", but means transcendence of Polarity - transcendence of Good/Bad and any other polarity.

 

That's what they are trying to experience - transcend duality (polarity) and unite with the One, the Universe.

 

Looking at Zhou Dunyi's TaiJiTu, this transcendence could be seen as a "reversal" of that, which is why this concept is there.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

I mean the Dao must be able to be known and experienced at some point in time, when the neidan practitioner "returns to the Dao." At least this is what they think, I don't mean that the Dao is in their mind, or in a certain place.

[Apech]

3 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

I mean the Dao must be able to be known and experienced at some point in time, when the neidan practitioner "returns to the Dao." At least this is what they think, I don't mean that the Dao is in their mind, or in a certain place.

 

The Dao can be 'known' or perhaps 'realised' in a sense beyond intellect or normal cognition.

[vonkrankenhaus]

11 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I mean the Dao must be able to be known and experienced at some point in time, when the neidan practitioner "returns to the Dao." At least this is what they think, I don't mean that the Dao is in their mind, or in a certain place.

 

They can experience "the way things happen". 

 

As such, this is no specific "thing".

 

And they can experience non-dual awareness, experience the Unity "before" the Dualism of Polar Existence, or YinYang.

 

They can see that opposites are complimentary, and every polarity (Two) is actually "of" a One.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Bindi]

55 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

The Dao can be 'known' or perhaps 'realised' in a sense beyond intellect or normal cognition.

 

And this faculty beyond intellect or normal cognition is what I understand to be True Yin and True Yang, which are initially embedded in Yin and Yang and have to be extracted from the yin/yang level. 

[voidisyinyang]

5 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Are you equating the Dao with 2/1? 

 

Two in One?

 

 

 

The Dao is actually what Ramana Maharshi called the "three in one unity." So it is a process of harmonics as time-frequency energy.

So again look at the image. What is the "one." You ask about 2/1. That is the "frequency" and so the "wavelength" as time is 1/2 or 6/12. So the "one" in that case is 0 to 12 - as I mentioned above. But in harmonics the 2 is the same "pitch" - meaning it is a doubling of frequency but the same unity. So it has the same geometric identity. As I stated - we can all the "one" as C and so the 2 is also C. Now consider the frequency of 3. If the frequency is 3/2 then the wavelength is 2/3 but now the 2/3 is less than the value of the 1. You can not have a wavelength that is less than the original wavelength! But we define sound in the West based on material wavelength while you do not need a physical instrument to LISTEN. So actually it is frequency and time. The Chinese Daoists used the pitch pipe for wavelength, instead of a vibrating string. So the Yang is 3/2 frequency and 2/3 as time or the inverse. So it is a different geometry but it is still the yang. But as the inverse geometry then the value of the 2 now changes - since the one as the octave changes! So if you have yang as 2/3 frequency this is C to F as a subharmonic again below the original "one" in pitch. And so to bring that subharmonic back into the same "one" - again in this case in the image above, this "one" is now 0 to 8 and so the 2/3 is 8/12 but now it is made into the NEW "one" as 0 to 8 so that 6/8 is now 3/4 wavelength. So then 8/6 is now 4/3 frequency. So what happened is that now the 3 is the new ONE that is doubled from 2/3 to 4/3, in order to create C to F as the overtone harmonic of the same previous "one." So now the 4/3 is YIN and no longer 2/3 as yang.

 

So that process continues infinitely - the "one" is always changing but the "three in one" unity remains. I have more of the details on my blog research. Again this secret was covered up in order to create Western logic of symmetric irrational ratios with a "contained" infinity that is materialistic. The secret was rediscovered as relativistic quantum logic called noncommutative phase. But it is originally from nonwestern music theory.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

18 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Tao is undefinable.  Can any no-thing be a noun?  I don't think so.  That's the reason I have suggested that Tao is a verb.

 

Could it be called a no-unthing?

[Rocky Lionmouth]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

And this faculty beyond intellect or normal cognition is what I understand to be True Yin and True Yang, which are initially embedded in Yin and Yang and have to be extracted from the yin/yang level. 

 

Nope, they are not to be extracted from anywhere if we’re still talking about Th Tao.

If you are thinking of the Tai Ji Tu (aka the Yin Yang symbol) the dots signify different things but a major one is that yin and yang interplay and shift towards, and in fact become, eachother at their culmination.

 

What you speak of in the quote above is closer to Nei Dan practice at the initial level where Water (postnatal, manifest Yin) is cultivated and from which True Yang is extracted to replenish the Original Breath, which is said to be the energy of the prenatal state. While this is done True Yin is extracted from manifest Yang (postnatal Fire) to balance and replace the inner yang line of Water when it has shifted to the central place in Fire, thus resulting in a reestablishment of Heaven and Earth.

These are the early stages of Internal Alchemy as described through the symbols of Yin Yang and the Bagua. Sort of, ish and hamfistedly explained.

 

The Tao was before Yin and Yang, then when the stillness of Tao climaxed a movement initiated within Tao and when it had gone through its growth, climax and decay it returned to Yin thus repeating the process. This why the Tao (One) gave birth to the Two (Yin and Yang).

They are both Tao together in ever shifting and ever transforming phases of eachother.

 

Inshallah I tried, if it makes any sense then mazel tov!

[Bindi]

Yang fire is used to extract the yin from the yang, likewise water, which is yin fire, is used to extract the yang from the yin...This alchemical interaction reminds us that there is yin in yang and yang in yin, and the interactions involve unravelling the tangle of mundane yin and yang energies and reuniting them in their primordial pattern.

 

...The yin in the yang and the yang in the yin “long” to return to their original state. This natural attraction between li and k’an forms the basis of the alchemical reunion of the yin and yang energies and their return to their original prenatal or primordial state.

 

...When li (sun) and k’an (moon) embrace, the sun (the Great Yang) produces mercury or the mysterious water, which is the yin energy embodied in the yang; and the moon (the Great Yin) produces yellow gold or the true lead, which is the yang energy embodied in the yin.

 

...The cultivation of the supreme medicine does not require anything other than water and fire. When water and fire copulate, the energies of the dragon and the tiger will unite in the cauldron to become the golden nectar.

 

Harmonizing Yin and Yang: The Dragon-tiger Classic

edited by Eva Wong

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2018 by Bindi

[Marblehead]

5 hours ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

 

Could it be called a no-unthing?

I suppose we could label it any way we wanted.  But it won't change anything.

 

[KuroShiro]

11 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

If there is internal conflict within a person then I would say Yin and Yang are not united or balanced, yin and yang are looking in opposite directions and have different objectives and different methods. When they are united they share their essence with each other and work cooperatively, their two different but complementary functions combine and order can be restored. 

 

“When the qi of yin and yang are not in harmony, and cold and heat come in untimely ways, all things will be harmed.” (Zhuangzi ch. 31) On the other hand, “when the two have successful intercourse and achieve harmony, all things will be produced.” (Zhuangzi ch. 21)

 

 

Harmony, Balance / Disharmony, Unbalance, is it the same as United/Not United?

 

 

6 hours ago, Bindi said:

Yang fire is used to extract the yin from the yang, likewise water, which is yin fire, is used to extract the yin from the yang...This alchemical interaction reminds us that there is yin in yang and yang in yin, and the interactions involve unravelling the tangle of mundane yin and yang energies and reuniting them in their primordial pattern.

 

Harmonizing Yin and Yang: The Dragon-tiger Classic

edited by Eva Wong pages

 

 

Yes, Yin in Yang and Yang in Yin and what about Yin in Yang in Yin in Yang... and Yang in Yin in Yang in Yin... also if we look at Tai Ji Tu and Wu Xing aren't the old teachings telling us Yin/Yang are united?

[Marblehead]

15 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

Yin/Yang are united?

I always look at it as the two being complimentary.  It takes two to tango.

 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Complementary yes, united yes, by necessity in both cases imo. They cannot complement if not united.

 

Harmony and balance are not necessarily opposed to disharmony and imbalance.

Yin and yang are always shifting and always moving which entails that there always is a tiiiny bit of imbalance lest it becomes completely balanced and therefore immobile. And that stillness wont last forever either.