Childhood, depression and budhism

[Integrated]

18 minutes ago, Apech said:

Is the wheel of karma a potter's wheel?  Cos I think I'm still stuck.

 

Yeah, sure, let us go with a potters wheel.

It is a huge potters wheel that contains our universe.

It was made by God a long long time ago, to make sure that someone, somewhere always suffered.

Buddhism is a vain attempt to challenge this order, but I doubt it will succeed.

[s1va]

10 minutes ago, Integrated said:

 

Yeah, sure, let us go with a potters wheel.

It is a huge potters wheel that contains our universe.

It was made by God a long long time ago, to make sure that someone, somewhere always suffered.

Buddhism is a vain attempt to challenge this order, but I doubt it will succeed.

 

I take exception to the part where you state, God made sure that someone somewhere always suffered. 

 

While I can agree that someone somewhere is possibly suffering always -- in the way suffering is defined in Buddhism -- what has this got to do with the intention of God?  And who is this God per your definition?

[Integrated]

24 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

I take exception to the part where you state, God made sure that someone somewhere always suffered. 

 

While I can agree that someone somewhere is possibly suffering always -- in the way suffering is defined in Buddhism -- what has this got to do with the intention of God?  And who is this God per your definition?

 

Personally I don't subscribe to Buddhism, so at this point it is just an imaginary excersise for me.

I certainly don't intend to split hairs over the direction my imagination went.

You reservation is noted though.

I will try to not make you a complicit party to my heresy, if I ever stand before a divine tribunal for my sins.

[Daemon]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

I'm struggling to understand why rebirth (in the buddhist sense and not reincarnation which is different) contradicts dependent origination.  Please educate this dim cat.

 

 

Firstly, as a Buddhist, you're probably misunderstanding what Hinduism's actually saying about reincarnation. Perhaps it's clearer if you consider that it's conceptualised that it's an illusion that the atman is a separate individual entity, which could be seen (if you stop and ponder it) as equivalent to anatta.

In any case, these are just two different horses in the LifeAfterDeath™ theory race and I've explained elsewhere why I find it's unhelpful to reify concepts.

Secondly, just ponder the sutta  to which I've previously posted a link.

However, if you're entirely happy with your own (or someone else's) interpretation of the bathwater, there's no reason whatsoever to pull out the plug. As I've stated, having a religious belief system is an invaluable anchor for many people.

 

☮️

 

[Everything]

On 9/5/2018 at 6:09 PM, Arkx6 said:

Growing up i felt life was something you overcame or escaped because of the things i read. These thoughts were probably fuelled by depression from my teenage years to my early 30's.

 

I felt growing up from reading buddhist things that life was something to escape from...the wheel of samsara. 

 

I feel like such philosophy marred the joy of life for me or maybe this was simply my depression affecting how i interpreted buddhism. 

 

What is your impression of buddhism and the teachings on samsara (the wheel of life)?

 

Am i mistaken in seeing the teachings on samsara as being depressive?

Not mistaken in how you feel in the moment.

When you read something, and it feels bad, that which you are readin in that moment does not serve you.

And when you read something, in the same book, and it feels good, it is in that moment serving you to read that and contemplate that, to fulfill your lifes true purpose.

So you could grab a very depressing book, about a subject you give an absolute rats ass about, and still find a page or two of something that feels, if only, just a slightly bit less crappy. As even depressing books can for example have moments and scenes of serenity and contentment, which can reveal to you what the author has actually been reaching for his whole life, and missed out on when it was right in front of his very own nose, while he was writing it.

 

But if you grab a book that is known to hold allot of contrast and variety, now you can sort of feel your way through all of that, and the things that feel really good will catch your attention and help you get you on your way to the fulfillment of your lifes purpose.

 

Sometimes it's more easy to learn from someone elses mistakes, as you are capable of standing back and have a clear vision of what is actually going on. But if you really feel depressed all the time, you cannot see clearly, and reading doesn't help, it just activates the very false thoughts that cause more confusion and hopelessness and powerlessness. So it would then be more helpful to actually clear your mind first, meditating, and then reading with clarity and allowing your whole body to read with you, and so your heart can guide the mind to true knowledge, to your own unique personal truth that is the highest true for you in every moment again and again, expanding evermore on your eternal journey towards discovering all the more ways that you as existance have of experiencing your self in your true own unique and infinitely valuable way.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Everything

[Apech]

3 hours ago, Daemon said:

 

Firstly, as a Buddhist, you're probably misunderstanding what Hinduism's actually saying about reincarnation. Perhaps it's clearer if you consider that it's conceptualised that it's an illusion that the atman is a separate individual entity, which could be seen (if you stop and ponder it) as equivalent to anatta.

In any case, these are just two different horses in the LifeAfterDeath™ theory race and I've explained elsewhere why I find it's unhelpful to reify concepts.

Secondly, just ponder the sutta  to which I've previously posted a link.

However, if you're entirely happy with your own (or someone else's) interpretation of the bathwater, there's no reason whatsoever to pull out the plug. As I've stated, having a religious belief system is an invaluable anchor for many people.

 

☮️

 

 

 

Thank you.  But why do you think Buddhist rebirth contradicts dependent origination?

[Daemon]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Thank you.  But why do you think Buddhist rebirth contradicts dependent origination?

 

 

My pleasure.

Secondly, the theory of dependent origination's merely a fiendishly complicated paradox like that of Achilles and the tortoise (albeit more difficult to refute).

The only way of which I'm certain that its grip can be broken is via practices (as opposed to further discursive mental gymnastics).

 

☮️

 

[Cheshire Cat]

12 hours ago, Daemon said:

Buddhists have a choice. They can believe in the theory of rebirth (or reincarnation) or they can believe in the theory of dependent origination.

They can also believe in both at the same time (if they don't really understand the theory of dependent origination).

 

The Buddha would agree with me that if there's no rebirth, then there's no need to leave your luxurious sakya castle, suffer penances for an indefinite number of years.... in order to be free from suffering for the last decades of your life. 

 

You can play around as much as you like, but if you're serious about this quest, just ask to real Buddhists if they believe in rebirth or not. 

 

12 hours ago, Daemon said:

However, fortunately, they can also choose to believe in neither and instead use one or more of many different practical methods of investigation that can be found within Buddhism in order to transcend both these theories and discover the transcendent truth of the matter for themselves.

 

That's just heretic Daemon's Buddhism. 

 

BTW... 

Discover what? :-) 

 

 

12 hours ago, Daemon said:

[Daemon]

Zeno's Paradox

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/03/zeno_s_paradox_how_to_explain_the_solution_to_achilles_and_the_tortoise.html?via=gdpr-consent

 

Compare and contrast with Dependent Origination?

(10,000 words would perhaps be appropriate given these surroundings?)

Any takers?

Alternatively,

 

Spoiler

 

Simply have a race with a tortoise.

(For those who are 100% convinced that it's impossible to beat it, I guess that like Zeno's Achilles™ they'll also fail?)

 

☮️

 

 

☮️

 

[Stosh]

I know Sam,is an eater of ham.
 According to dependent origination, there is no Sam per se, there is just an eater of ham imbued with awareness. When Sam terminally malfunctions , there is still no Sam , and so therefore he cannot be reborn, there is still only generalized awareness posing as eaters of ham. Right? 

 

So the two , dependent origination and rebirth , are ideas mutually exclusive to a logic intending to be consistent. Arent they ?

[Daemon]

Isn't "awareness" also dependently originated in this theory of dependent origination?

 

☮️

[Arkx6]

I think a lot of these conversations regarding rebirth etc depend on belief of a theory...in the absence of evidence such mental gymnastics will ammount to nothing....a theory without proof is empty. Probably more productive to discuss individual cases of kids remembering past lives than empty theories that depend on belief. How science handles proving theories by examining evidence not of comparing proofless theories. 

 

Hate me for saying this but i remember being murdered in my last life and thats all the evidence i need re reincarnation.

 

Everything...that was really helpful and cut to the heart of the issue ty

[Stosh]

Speaking for myself ,I dont hate you. I figure you had a dream ,for that mental object to constitute proof, you should require of yourself some indepemdent evidence that the conclusion you reached ,is indeed memory of a real event and conclusively not dream. 

[Arkx6]

I was doing some qi gong felt like lying down and had a vision of being persecuted and evemntually killed in medieval europe for being a gnostic christian priest...gnosticism is a branch of christianity that believes personal gnosis or direct experience of the divine is the cornerstone of the spiritual experience and not old books.

 

i saw myself saying goodbye to my wife and daughter and walk outside as the angry mob of christians turned up to kill me. I was holding my hands in the prayer position...i was very peaceful and calm and felt no anger as the crowd stabbed me to death...on the contrary i felt love for those that stabbed me with tools etc. Taken me a long time to put this memmory into context as to who i am and what survives on death...it brings up a lot of questions and in this life i suffered from 10 years of depression so couldnt see the memmory in proper context. When the vision stopped i felt a being maybe gnostic in the room with me and pleaded for answers bbut they just turned away and left.

 

didnt know about gnostics at the time it happened...i was into chanelling at the time and asked for the being i was connected to to show me what i needed to see when i was in a bookshop later...i saw the image of an eye overlayed over my vision and settle on a book that sat in the bookshop amongst a maybe 200 books and it was about gnostic christians etc.

 

As for there being more objective solid evidence i dont know if that will ever be possible and this might be the most i ever get.

 

i find the following quote to be of great assiastance when dealing with the topic of rebirth etc...not that i understand all the buddhist theories on the subject...

 

Now, Kalamas, don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness’ — then you should enter & remain in them.”

 

for years i didnt gain anything positive from my vision it just lead to cynical theories on the value of my life etc...from the above quote i think its important to only accept our own views on reincarnation etc if they "when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness". Im still quite a way from that so i try and focus on the value of this life.

 

The only comfort my vision brings is that death is not the end so a kind of peace should be possible down the line for me.

 

Anyway thats my contribution to the topic of reincarnation etc