Reply to Sean Denty regarding David Verdessi

[Hern Heng]

Hello there,

 

Recently, i was forwarded a link at the following website:

 

http://www.coach-silver.com/Qi_gong.htm (and have since seen the same material elsewhere).

 

This letter raised a lot of questions (and red flags), but for now, i would like to simply call your attention to the "i guesses" of Sean's letter (these being trademarked "red flags of bullshit").

 

If the author comes across this (as i expect him to), please bear with my skepticism and mild ball-breaking, and try to keep a good sense of humor; realizing that different personality types might not see your explanation as so easy to embrace. This is not simply because of the nature of the things being discussed, but because you have not presented any verifiable achievements of you or your teacher (just claims). This would not be so bad if you were just posting on Internet forums, but you are asking for real peoples' real money. For this, i have to throw these things open to the light.

 

Without further ado...

 

"It was around this time that I received information about an ongoing lawsuit against the Healing Tao from an Author named Master Choa Kok Sui; I guess he's some kind of Pranic Healing guru."

 

With all due respect, "i guess" you didn't really look into the matter the deeply if you're only "guessing" that Choa Kok Sui was a pranic healer. i googled his name and found this out. No need to "guess" unless you want to act like you never really knew the guy and actually did (or your Shrfu did). In any event, and whatever the case, it is clear that you know good and well about what you claim to be guesswork on your part here.

 

"Andreas, an older student of John Chang, asked David to offer his training to former Mo Pai who, finding themselves without a practice, needed something to fill the void. I guess David didn't think much of the idea at the time because he already has more students then he truly wants on some levels."

 

You guess? It would seem that you are the gatekeeper to David? Why guess? Just ask the man. Your Shrfu told you it is okay for you to write about him and "guess" so much as to what he thinks or doesn't think? This is strange enough, in and of itself.

 

How ironic that Andreas still studies with John Chang and neither of the two is going to come out and argue with you on message forums and websites. Sean knows this and exploits their silence. Why would Andreas ask David (someone that was never mentioned as a student of Chang in either "Magus of Java" or "Nei Kung" - while Andreas and Kosta were), to teach when there were so many obviously more impressive to Kosta whereas David is never mentioned? What evidence is there AT ALL that David has ever even spoken to Chang, let alone been his student; let alone passed level 4!?! As well, if he has spoken to Shrfu Chang, this does not mean that he was accepted as his student, nor that he was tested through level 3 of the Mo Pa'i tradition.

 

"David actually saw one of these Chakras. It belongs to a Lei Shan Dao Master who is about level 20. I guess this master said he needs to be at full power before he can even hold it. According to this master, the Dali Lama requested to have this Chakra back (I can't imagine that conversation). I guess the answer was no."

 

Amazing! Did you hear there's a new Indiana Jones movie coming out?

 

Anyway, many problems here:

 

If David is at level 4 then how can he gauge who is at level 20?

Why do you guess what the master said? This is presumptuous and a lot of guessing.

Why do you guess the answer was no? All of this guessing leads me to believe that you don't really know much about these stories, but have elaborated (in your mind, and now on the internet), on bits and pieces of things that you've heard.

 

"After the teaching was over, David walked away behind his master (I guess in this tradition the student always follows behind the master three paces)."

 

Do you KNOW this is part of the tradition or is there some reason you are "guessing" and can't find out? Why all the guessing? Aren't you in contact with David to ask him? Isn't he able to answer this question? How good of contact is he really in with these Shrfu if he does not even know to tell you!?!

 

"The evidence of this is the healing power of this liquid, which makes those who drink it incredibly flexable. David told me that he could do the spilts after drinking a bottle of this altered water; I guess he used to be pretty tense and inflexable."

 

i call bullshit. You are once again "guessing" that he was inflexible before. This means that you don't know whether or not he was pretty close to doing the splits before having ingested this formula. Too much guesswork.

 

"David does teach neigong after students have completed the foundation training. David knows the practice up to level three as far as I know and, if all goes well, he will achieve yin yang gong in the next two to three years and begin teaching it to his students. Several of his students have completed level two. When these students went to train with Sherfu L in Bangkok, Sherfu showed them how to levitate about an inch off the ground. David was able to levitate also. I guess Sherfu has you sit on news paper and when you start lifting off, he pulls it out from under you without tearing it."

 

Many problems again:

 

Nei Kung is not unique to the Mo Pa'i tradition. Everyone does this throughout Daoism, Daoist Martial Arts and even outside of that context. Nei Kung is not some elusive thing. The level that Sean is claiming his Shrfu is at is not at all as rare as he is making it out. Kosta notes in "The Magus of Java" that he met a Tae Kwon Do teacher who had reached this level; a fact which Shrfu Chang confirmed from the description. Would you pay to meet a Tae Kwon Do teacher? Why not? Just because of this label of "Daoist?" Or is it because of the tales that Sean has posted here with so many "i guesses?"

 

Again, he says here that David is Level 3. This is consistent (at least), with the fact that John Chang said that he has NEVER taught anyone (let alone the unmentioned David), past this level. He said that a Westerner WILL achieve it (and David alleges that Chang's Shrfu referred to him as a "Western Barbarian" who "knew too much" already), and this was with no mention of David (who supposedly would have been training with him at the time). How could David know he would achieve this level? If he actually said this to you then he is likely delusional. All one could say is that they will do it or die in the process. Chang said many students die in this process and Kosta apparently got cancer in the process of this fusion. Why on Earth are you so quick to believe that a man will do this in a time period that HE dictated? Gee, i can't imagine why people would consider you folks a cult.

 

Moreover, TONS of people levitate. i have more than one Kung fu brother and uncle who can levitate. i have a friend who sang for a hardcore band who went to visit family in Thailand and was shown many Buddhist monks levitating in meditation as if it was no big deal (and it IS no big deal, make no mistake about it). Even his family members couldn't understand why he was so impressed. This was everyday ritualism to them. They see it all the time. So wow, David levitated? What does this mean in terms of what he is teaching and where his head's at? After many years and tens of thousands of dollars you too might be able to levitate barely off the ground? So what? Aleister Crowley could focus on a wine glass for half an hour and eventually it would crack. Neat. Practically speaking i could kill the man before he could ever lock on to the glass. What is the point? Unless a man is able to focus on the glass and crack it immediately, i don't see what the big deal is practically speaking. Why fall all over each other to learn from him when he is just beginning like so many other people (and does not apparently have anything unusual to offer that you cannot find in most old school Kung Fu lineages)?

 

It seems that there were a lot of people who got into Chia and were really inactive physically speaking. i don't see a lot of Kung Fu Shrfu getting pissed at Chia; and most of the people i know who like his books are teachers. This is likely because the people who got chronic Kidney Yang Deficiency (as Sean says he did), were relatively inactive; wanting to sit and think themselves to enlightenment or super powers and not do and unthink their way there.

 

More later.

 

Peace.

Edited February 5, 2008 by Hern Heng

[Procurator]

So wow, David levitated? What does this mean in terms of what he is teaching and where his head's at? After many years and tens of thousands of dollars you too might be able to levitate barely off the ground? So what?

you shot yourself in the foot here. whoever can levitate is worth paying all your money to study under.

 

 

Aleister Crowley could focus on a wine glass for half an hour and eventually it would crack. Neat.

to said fact you stand a witness heh?

 

 

 

Practically speaking i could kill the man before he could ever lock on to the glass.

there is a guy on this forum who can dodge bullets and another who can give cancers, you guys should really get together one of this days .

[DentyDao]

Hi Hern,

 

You seem upset. I didn't read much of your letter to be honest, but, as you may have noticed, I've kind of done the forum thing and have chosen to essentially move on. I'm not infallible, so your welcome to whatever conclusions you choose to come to. From the tone of your letter it sounds like you're not all that impressed with what I wrote. That suits me just fine.

 

Cheers, S

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Well Kunlun level 1 says you can attain levitation among many other things very simple seated meditation for only 24 dollars not 10,000!

 

Sorry to stir the pot, but that is the claims and thought to add it if you are interested in Levitation!

[Hern Heng]

Good form Sean; yield when attacked. It is fine, yielding works as long as you are faster on your feet

[MASTERforge]

I never understand why people insist they can do taoist magic like floating and what not. We never seem to be short of them here on the forum.

 

If they can, come out and prove it to science. You will change the world overnight. No bullshit like it creates yang energy in my pinkie finger which will result in global war. Simply go to your nearest university science department, introduce yourself and say 'look what neat shit I can do'.

 

They will get research grants for life and you will be rich beyond your wildest dreams.

 

However, if you are talking bollox for the fun of it or even worse, to blindly follow your teacher who is making a shit load of money.

 

Then keep out of the forum, bullshido.net needs you more than we do.

 

So I say to all the Jedi out there. Step up and be counted or go somewhere else

[Cameron]

Well Kunlun level 1 says you can attain levitation among many other things very simple seated meditation for only 24 dollars not 10,000!

 

Sorry to stir the pot, but that is the claims and thought to add it if you are interested in Levitation!

 

 

Where does Max say Kunlun 1 will make you levitate? I don't remember reading that.

 

Also, it's $15.

[Hern Heng]

I never understand why people insist they can do taoist magic like floating and what not. We never seem to be short of them here on the forum.

 

If they can, come out and prove it to science. You will change the world overnight. No bullshit like it creates yang energy in my pinkie finger which will result in global war. Simply go to your nearest university science department, introduce yourself and say 'look what neat shit I can do'.

 

They will get research grants for life and you will be rich beyond your wildest dreams.

 

However, if you are talking bollox for the fun of it or even worse, to blindly follow your teacher who is making a shit load of money.

 

Then keep out of the forum, bullshido.net needs you more than we do.

 

So I say to all the Jedi out there. Step up and be counted or go somewhere else

 

Abso-fucking-lutely. To some extent this IS being done. Harvard is researching Buddhist monks heating themselves up enough in meditation to dry wet towels. Impressive stuff, but still within the realms of esoteric expectations. John Chang has my respect because he stepped up to the plate and effortlessly hit a home run every time at bat. Beyond that, some guy traveling a lot and charging a lot of money because he claims to have MET Chang and Wang, and other folks, just irritates me.

 

If Sean D. or David V. want anyone's money then they have an ethical obligation to provide some evidence that they can do SOMETHING out of the ordinary that they are implying they will be able to impart to the seeker. Otherwise they should be regarded as charlatans and hucksters.

[sunshine]

If Sean D. or David V. want anyone's money then they have an ethical obligation to provide some evidence that they can do SOMETHING out of the ordinary that they are implying they will be able to impart to the seeker. Otherwise they should be regarded as charlatans and hucksters.

 

At the moment I am just in the mood to answer:

David by now can but some will still accuse him for charlatanism anyway: Teslacoils. Right guys?

Sean is a second year student (correct me Sean if I am wrong). What do you expect. One thing is sure. He has changed in the process...

 

on a sidenote: if people want to give him money there is no ethical obligation to provide anything at all.

 

just in the mood to answer

 

 

Harry

[Hern Heng]

If people are being told to give money based on a promise (implied or stated outrightly), that they will develop powers that David himself does not even have (level 4 of the Mo Pa'i tradition), then this is unethical. Remember, "De" means "Virtue" not just "Power." A man without Virtue is a man without true Power. His power will never develop to the state of what the old masters called "hao ran zhi qi."

 

You may see no ethical obligation here, and i may. This is natural. You may be in a deficit of virtue and may be naturally provoked to restore that balance by posing the other side of the story that Sean and David have been leaving out. This is natural and you should recognize that if you are in the right then you have nothing to fear from me (or anyone else), posing these questions.

[sunshine]

This is natural and you should recognize that if you are in the right then you have nothing to fear from me (or anyone else), posing these questions.

 

If I fear anything in all of this then punishment from Heaven, not from a human being and sure not by criticism based on speculation. David does not have achieved Level 4 in the Mo Pai tradition you are likely referring to. According to recent happenings witnessed by students he has reached a somehow equivalent but different in specific ways level in the tradition he is learning now from his current master(s) in China.

 

Regarding the topic of virtue mentioned above and in the way it was mentioned above, I recently stated: one should first clean ones own yard before...

 

 

Harry

[Hern Heng]

My friend, if my yard were not clean then i would not bother cleaning yours. Moreover, i am cleaning yours only to show how dirty it is to those who are paying to hang out in this supposedly "clean" yard

 

Fear Heaven. Fear Karma. This is fine. But if you believe in either or both then you will know that both react through human agents at times (through the course of natural events). Heaven does not act by divine hands renting it apart and intervening, it acts through natural means. There is no one "up there" with "nothing to do" as Zhuangzi so humorously put it. You ARE receiving the natural repercussions of what EXISTENCE has dictated is an imbalance.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Cameron,

 

It has it on the page for level 1 on his site i read it and thats why ive been posting it, for some reason i cant bring it up on my computer maybe the site is down or is been worked on but it definetly says Kunlun level 1 you can attain levitation among alot of other things!!! Check it out yourself!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

There ya go, LOL!!

 

 

 

When the Level I activates, practitioner will experience tremendous heat and sweating. Uncontrollable trembling, laughing and crying may follow this. This is due to the body is being physically and mentally purified through the process. Other manifestations include, speaking in other tongues, light manifestation around the body, levitation, and inner, or third eye opening.

[sunshine]

Fine Hern Heng. Good to learn what you believe about yourself. The way you approach the topic sure does not leave that impression.

 

 

Harry

[Hern Heng]

Fine Hern Heng. Good to learn what you believe about yourself. The way you approach the topic sure does not leave that impression.

 

 

Harry

 

Dear friend, PLEASE forgive me if my posts have given the impression that i charge people for things out of the ordinary (information about myself, my skills, or information about seminar beyond the fees of the seminar itself and the traveling expenses).

 

If i have given you this impression - that i am in any way interested in your money - then i have done so in a way that i am completely unaware of (and would be happy to have you point out). i have criticized someone you like. This does not denote lack of virtue except in the minds of cult members.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Cameron

 

When the Level I activates, practitioner will experience tremendous heat and sweating. Uncontrollable trembling, laughing and crying may follow this. This is due to the body is being physically and mentally purified through the process. Other manifestations include, speaking in other tongues, light manifestation around the body, levitation, and inner, or third eye opening.

[sheng zhen]

If they can, come out and prove it to science. You will change the world overnight.

We never seem to be short of people believing science is the answer to all confusion either. As if science is the WAY and the only method to show us TRUTH.

 

Do you really you believe a scientist being able to proove levitation is going to change the world...wake up man. How do you think the scientist community is going to react? It dosent matter how much proof they get, they'll react the same way. And it dosent matter how well the research is done either. It will be analyzed, overanalyzed, misinterpreted, twisted, eaten and puked up again and then twisted some more. It would take us no further than we are now.

 

Dont put too much weight on science people. It is nothing more than a paradigm.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Forgot to add if its true then 15 dollars is by far the better choice wouldnt you think?

 

I wonder if anyone has seen max levitate or his students that have reached level 2,3 cause level 1 says you can levitate? Have you attained it yet?

[sunshine]

Dear friend, PLEASE forgive me if my posts have given the impression that i charge people for things out of the ordinary (information about myself, my skills, or information about seminar beyond the fees of the seminar itself and the traveling expenses).

 

If i have given you this impression - that i am in any way interested in your money - then i have done so in a way that i am completely unaware of (and would be happy to have you point out). i have criticized someone you like. This does not denote lack of virtue except in the minds of cult members.

 

Yep. Hern Heng. It is okay. By now I understand I am cult member. Seriously though: I have absolutely no trouble with you ciriticizing someone I like. Maybe with the approach you are utilizing, but maybe not even that. It just gets tiring because, as stated: All this criticism has been repeated over and over again... I always try to the best of my abilities to reply in an honest way and balance some sometimes pretty vague views, often criticism based on lack of information and so on. What you have presented so far is in no way different. Sure enough sensed though my filters... don't worry. You have enough people on your side. They will state that all I try is just a try to discredit you, chastetize you and whatever. I have learned to live with that although it is far from truth.

 

My above statement referred to the statement of your "clean yard". Purely based on personal perception your approach does not speak for that.

 

On a sarcastic side note (I am sorry cat that I lose my balance):

Someone some time ago stated that he feels that even the negative posts about David are just there to keep him in the mind of all and pop up ones in a while by students of his.

SeanD. Do you actually know if there is anything to it?

 

I am tired.

 

 

Harry

[Wun Yuen Gong]

I think if someone goes on Randys 1 million challenge and or to a science lab or on the news it will have a huge effect on the world cause it shows how far one can become with the power of the mind and energy. Possibly military might see something in it and be worth alot of cash.

[Hern Heng]

We never seem to be short of people believing science is the answer to all confusion either. As if science is the WAY and the only method to show us TRUTH.

 

Do you really you believe a scientist being able to proove levitation is going to change the world...wake up man. How do you think the scientist community is going to react? It dosent matter how much proof they get, they'll react the same way. And it dosent matter how well the research is done either. It will be analyzed, overanalyzed, misinterpreted, twisted, eaten and puked up again and then twisted some more. It would take us no further than we are now.

 

Dont put too much weight on science people. It is nothing more than a paradigm.

 

It would change the scientific community at the very least. Think of how much "science" has changed in the past 150 years alone! This has ONLY come about through people proving the skeptics of the "Old Guard" wrong

[sheng zhen]

It would change the scientific community at the very least. Think of how much "science" has changed in the past 150 years alone! This has ONLY come about through people proving the skeptics of the "Old Guard" wrong

Yes youre right of course, but have you seeen how science has changed on the way? Its a paradigm... do you see what I mean? Just because science dosent proove it dosent mean it dosent exist. Just because scientists have disprooved something dosent mean anything.

 

Science is still only working within its own paradigm. Anything outside of that paradigm wont be accepted by the scientist community. So if your reality-testing is based on what science has achieved, your reality will be limited to that paradigm.

[Hern Heng]

Yep. Hern Heng. It is okay. By now I understand I am cult member. Seriously though: I have absolutely no trouble with you ciriticizing someone I like. Maybe with the approach you are utilizing, but maybe not even that. It just gets tiring because, as stated: All this criticism has been repeated over and over again...

 

Perhaps it is repeated because no proof is given, only more very wild claims.

 

I always try to the best of my abilities to reply in an honest way and balance some sometimes pretty vague views, often criticism based on lack of information and so on. What you have presented so far is in no way different. Sure enough sensed though my filters... don't worry. You have enough people on your side. They will state that all I try is just a try to discredit you, chastetize you and whatever. I have learned to live with that although it is far from truth.

 

i have no side my friend. There is only reality and fantasy. Since fantasy is not real, it cannot be a "side" (since it does not exist). Reality is existence. If something is not real then it is not a side to take. Again, i have no sides.

 

My above statement referred to the statement of your "clean yard". Purely based on personal perception your approach does not speak for that.

 

The dirtiness of your, Sean's and David's collective yard is based on unsubstantiated claims (and worse, unsubstantiated claims asking for money to substantiate them). Since i have not done this then you are, in effect, saying that criticizing you for doing this (or Sean or David), is tantamount to having done it myself. This is illogical in the extreme.

 

On a sarcastic side note (I am sorry cat that I lose my balance):

Someone some time ago stated that he feels that even the negative posts about David are just there to keep him in the mind of all and pop up ones in a while by students of his.

SeanD. Do you actually know if there is anything to it?

 

Common thing said by cult leaders. i do not doubt that David is SUPPOSED to exist, as a detour to true practice that yields demonstrable results. He is supposed to mislead those who are easily mislead. Those who find this distasteful are supposed to call him out for this. Everything is as it should be. Everything is perfect.

[MASTERforge]

well, if they do have those jedi powers they tell us they have. Surely it would be better that they are proven? Then the jedi council can charge more than $15 for levitation.

 

By the way 'speaking in tongues' does this not sound like a cult? Some types of Christian groups encourage this but because they are accepted religion are exempt from being called a cult. Just google 'cults' and pretty much this organisation ticks most boxes.

 

we have a secret - tick

only we can share it with you - tick

your family and others wont understand - tick

we need a shit load of money and total dedication before we can show it to you - tick

now drink this fizzy green stuff - waiting on that one

 

Its this 'blind faith' that churns my stomache. Defending people with fantastical claims that you have not seen, in the hope that one day you will be one of the privileged inner circle.

 

I am not a sheeple.

 

Worth googling:

Sheeple

Cult

Mind control

Subliminal persuasion

rhetoric

 

Read a bit of that and if you still think its worth following these guys please continue. Then when you have achieved some mastery come back and share it with us. Most of use will be happy to apologise and will be willing students for you.

 

I personally will take a lot more interest in those who can come here and actually show us what their $$$$ and dedication has achieved. I would like to be part of the next stage in human evolution. If its legit you are pioneers and people will build giant statues of the people who changed humanity.

 

Best of luck and I sincerely hope to see you here with progress reports.

[sunshine]

Edited February 5, 2008 by sunshine