Reply to Sean Denty regarding David Verdessi

[vitagong]

Truly this has gotten beyond ridiculous.

 

The best one ever told was the so called "Liberation Of The Rabbits Karma"

 

Not satisfied with Blasting these poor Animals with his own (Or The Bulls) Chi, The Immortal Shifu Jiang later Skinned The rabbits & they were promptly served up as "Chop Suey" For all Students to Feast Upon like Savages.

 

"The purpose being................. That of Spiritual Enlightenment & The Cleansing of Negative Karma created by these "Evil Rabbits" in previous Lifetimes."

 

Loooool ,Maybe Sean & David should try Their Hand at Writing Science Fiction Novels instead.

 

Wait houtien, nothing is more rediculous than the claim that David achieved Yinyang gong the same as what is described as level 4 in the Magus of Java, I think I read somewhere to that he is now also immortal

[Hern Heng]

Yes, Chang said that he has never taught someone this and that it is apparently rare to have more than one person per lineage fuse Yin and Yang Qi successfully in a generation under their Shrfu.

 

Left - Center - Right

 

Left hand is concerned with "charging" or progressing in awareness, power, etc (it all boils down to power), via the external illusion of T'aiji Yin-Yang relational construct (an ambiguous, though more explanatory way of saying "the external Universe"). It is concerned with "absorbing" power from others.

 

...ever watch Heroes? Fun show (not as good as Lost though!). "Sylar" is a clear literary construct of the Left hand path practitioner (i.e. eat the brains of powerful people to absorb their power).

 

Right hand is devotional in nature: you "gain" power through devotion to your chosen ideal (God, Jesus, Buddha, even Huang Di or Laozi, etc). Right hand is more humanitarian in nature, more "Moist" in nature (Mozi was fairly Right hand path oriented in his teachings). There is nothing "wrong" with Right hand path, and most religious saints of extraordinary ability are Right hand path (St. Teresa flying in front of many other nuns on repeated occasions, etc, stigmata, etc).

 

Center is neither, and in a sense "sort of" both (but NOT the sum of the techniques of both).

 

Center absorbs and recirculates; balancing who you draw from and allowing them to balance you. This is exemplified in even modern "Sexual Alchemy" which has its roots in the T'ien Shr. They preached this in reaction to Fang Shr Proto-Daoist alchemists who were Left Hand path oriented and had taken to raping virgins and other practices in their quest to gain power.

 

The Proto-Daoist Left Hand Pathers ultimately lost out (for the most part). Still, this is EXACTLY what David is doing and it is VERY limited and VERY low level (i.e. it can only take you so far, even though progress is initially quick).

 

Center will act in a virtuous manner, but not for the sake of reward, for the sake of it being inherently correct. From here an UNLIMITED source of power is derived, as virtue and power are the same word (de). The Dedaojing (the Mawangdui find informed us that it is not the Daodejing as previously ordered since Wang Bi's commentary), is speaking simultaneously of virtue AND power; this being of such importance that the Dejing comes before the Daojing in the oldest copies.

[RFunaki]

Wait houtien, nothing is more rediculous than the claim that David achieved Yinyang gong the same as what is described as level 4 in the Magus of Java, I think I read somewhere to that he is now also immortal

 

Hello, I'm a new registrant to the forum, and just joined to ask some questions of my own, and share what little I know also.

 

My name is Rick and I am also a student of David Verdesi's. Although, at my level (Fresh beginner) it's hard to even consider yourself a student (I went to the seminar in Denmark last year, and will be attending this year's as well)

 

I do and don't understand what the anger is all about. I am not here to argue, but maybe we could clarify where the arguments are coming from, because to me, many of these questions have been answered, or just have NO definite answer.

 

 

Wait houtien, nothing is more rediculous than the claim that David achieved Yinyang gong the same as what is described as level 4 in the Magus of Java, I think I read somewhere to that he is now also immortal

 

What is the confusion here? To my knowledge, David joined Yin and Yang - and this was demonstrated on all the students present at his achievenment, and some of the longer time students at a later point. Wether or not it's comparable to MoPai doesn't matter - most of the time the comparisons are made to MoPai levels because many of us came to understand these things from Kostas Danaos' books. So the comparisons are made for the benefit of realtivity.

 

Also to doubt he was in the MoPai I'm confused with as well. Andreas was a member of the forum, and made a few posts in it's beginnings. A few of us sat and had tea with David before class one afternoon while we were in Denmark, were discussing how we all came to be there at the seminar. One of the students who was a member of Andreas forum (the forum that started up after the MoPai forum closed) mentioned how apparently Andreas intention was to get David to join the forum and publically teach, because of the other masters he knew and the doors he could open for sincere students. Which, is exactly what happened. David took more of a public approach, and with Sean's outreach to many places, many of us found David and the practice. Someone who also knew John Chang posted on the forum recently about David's achieving level 4, and from what I gather - in David's reply he told the student (Or at least, son of a student, I can't remember the context and don't have the time to search through the forum - the point remains the same however) his respect for John, and that he intends to visit him this summer. Also, I believe you are mistaken in saying that only one student per lineage per generation achieves Level 4. That is MoPai tradition. Even without basing that on what I learned from David - looking at the simultaneous cases in history of many of the famous Taoist masters will tell you different. (The more well known "7 Taoist Masters" among which were taught by Wang Ch'ung-yang all are said to have achieved in the same generation)

 

I also don't understand the base of the argument - your basing what's true or not on what you know from a book about John Chang? What has John Chang proved to you? Do you know him or any students?

 

And whether or not he is a student of Liping's? Students have met and trained with him with David. To my understanding, David will also be publishing books by his request. (I believe one is an edited version of Opening the Dragon Gate - which should be proof in itself as that's where most of us even come to know him)

 

The PhD discussion and credentials I don't know myself, because like many of my fellow students, it doesn't matter. I do know that a fellow student had asked him when we all met once, a suggestion on a school to study at for comparitive religion/anthropolgy and what not (As that was David's field of study as well) - David elaborated on a specific university and gave him information on it, etc. He even wrote information on the university for the student. I don't know if this is where he studied or not though - but that's the extent of my knowledge their. I also believe he spoke in Cornell University (I believe that's the name of it - it's near Rochester, NY/Brockport. NY area - maybe I can look further into it after work) That was during I believe his last visit to the US which was in 2003. Someone might be able to find information on that.

 

The arguments about left handed path and right handed path I can see where some people are coming from, but don't agree with. Which is fine. I can also see where vegetarians come from, and I myself don't believe in cruelty to animals, but love meat. So I eat it. What happens in slaughter houses and animal fur manufacturing and gathering is what's truly horrifyng, but yet many of those making arguments still eat meat. Even if I disagreed of the gathering of the chi from bulls (Which I don't) - how could I argue it, as I eat meat. That would make me a hypocrite. I think it's pretty simple logic. Because it's the taking of energy, and not meat, it's not OK. Where does the energy in the universe come from? The energy from trees, etc? Aren't we always taking from something? I don't provide these points to argue - I just don't understand the base of the argument.

 

To the students I spoke to in Denmark, they have seen much and have no question about their practice or David. What's funny is, I also spoke to some first time studnets who were studying with David for the first time, and who don't necessarily believe in the atainment of powers, but still greatly respected David and his teachings, and spent the money for the seminars.

 

I know one thing for sure, coming up with the money and the time to make it to Denmark was not easy, but it was one of the highlights of my life. I can't wait to go again this year. What I learned, the people I met, and the experiences I had are all beyond measure.

 

I really hope this does not come off as rude, or inchorenet, I was in a hurry while writing this. To sum it up, I respect the opinions of those who posted on both sides of the argument - more power to both sides. I just hope we aren't arguing for the sake of arguing. And, for those who have an affinity for this practice and are thinking about doing it, follow your heart - not disconnected impersonal posts on a forum. If this is not your thing, find something that is, because finding a practice you can devote yourself to and learn from is a great gift of life.

 

Thanks,

- Rick F.

[Hern Heng]

My name is Rick and I am also a student of David Verdesi's.

 

Thank you for establishing your bias from the outset.

 

Although, at my level (Fresh beginner) it's hard to even consider yourself a student (I went to the seminar in Denmark last year, and will be attending this year's as well)

 

This is fine but if you attend a seminar once a year and are a beginner right now then it is likely you will find many difficulties.

 

I do and don't understand what the anger is all about. I am not here to argue, but maybe we could clarify where the arguments are coming from, because to me, many of these questions have been answered, or just have NO definite answer.

 

Proof of a PhD, where obtained, topic of thesis, etc.

 

Proof of discipleship to Chang, Wang or anyone else he is claiming to be a disciple of.

 

Proof of Yin-Yang fusion, i.e. electrogenesis.

 

...i'll add another: Proof of even having mastered Yang Qi to an extraordinary degree.

 

What is the confusion here? To my knowledge, David joined Yin and Yang - and this was demonstrated on all the students present at his achievenment, and some of the longer time students at a later point. Wether or not it's comparable to MoPai doesn't matter - most of the time the comparisons are made to MoPai levels because many of us came to understand these things from Kostas Danaos' books. So the comparisons are made for the benefit of realtivity.

 

Yin and Yang is ALWAYS "joined" in the body or there would be no life! What Yin-Yang Kung fusion entails is different (but similar), drawing on the Yin throughout the body, the extraordinary amount of Yang Qi in the Dan T'ien being used to draw in more Yin qi through the body; then drawn and merged together (fused), and stored in the dan t'ien. IF successful, he would be able to do electrogenesis. Either that or you are asking us to take David's word of Chang's!

 

Also to doubt he was in the MoPai I'm confused with as well. Andreas was a member of the forum, and made a few posts in it's beginnings. A few of us sat and had tea with David before class one afternoon while we were in Denmark, were discussing how we all came to be there at the seminar. One of the students who was a member of Andreas forum (the forum that started up after the MoPai forum closed) mentioned how apparently Andreas intention was to get David to join the forum and publically teach, because of the other masters he knew and the doors he could open for sincere students. Which, is exactly what happened. David took more of a public approach, and with Sean's outreach to many places, many of us found David and the practice. Someone who also knew John Chang posted on the forum recently about David's achieving level 4, and from what I gather - in David's reply he told the student (Or at least, son of a student, I can't remember the context and don't have the time to search through the forum - the point remains the same however) his respect for John, and that he intends to visit him this summer.

 

There are plenty of people who "know" John Chang! Thousands of people "know" him! This means NOTHING. This guy who "knows" John Chang is in NO position to evaluate David's level.

 

Also, I believe you are mistaken in saying that only one student per lineage per generation achieves Level 4. That is MoPai tradition. Even without basing that on what I learned from David - looking at the simultaneous cases in history of many of the famous Taoist masters will tell you different. (The more well known "7 Taoist Masters" among which were taught by Wang Ch'ung-yang all are said to have achieved in the same generation)

 

No, no, i said it is unusual and that John Chang said he had never taught someone to that level. If he had taught David then there would likely be mention of this by a known member of the Mo Pa'i (not just some unnamed guy who "knows" John Chang, as so many do). Let me ask you dude, do you even know John Chang's real name?

 

I also don't understand the base of the argument - your basing what's true or not on what you know from a book about John Chang? What has John Chang proved to you? Do you know him or any students?

 

The argument is NOT about John Chang, it is about David, Sean, Harry, you and your momma. Stop trying to obfuscate the issue by talking about someone legitimate and then acting as this legitimizes David for POSSIBLY having MET him!

 

And whether or not he is a student of Liping's? Students have met and trained with him with David. To my understanding, David will also be publishing books by his request. (I believe one is an edited version of Opening the Dragon Gate - which should be proof in itself as that's where most of us even come to know him)

 

If he is his student then he can call himself his student and can present proof of it. If not then he should stop trying to legitimize his bullshit teachings by riding the coat tails of Wang.

 

The PhD discussion and credentials I don't know myself, because like many of my fellow students, it doesn't matter. I do know that a fellow student had asked him when we all met once, a suggestion on a school to study at for comparitive religion/anthropolgy and what not (As that was David's field of study as well) - David elaborated on a specific university and gave him information on it, etc. He even wrote information on the university for the student. I don't know if this is where he studied or not though - but that's the extent of my knowledge their. I also believe he spoke in Cornell University (I believe that's the name of it - it's near Rochester, NY/Brockport. NY area - maybe I can look further into it after work) That was during I believe his last visit to the US which was in 2003. Someone might be able to find information on that.

 

i have seen no mention of him on the Cornel website, nor on any other website. i am in close, daily contact with PhD graduates from Brown and Harvard who have never heard of David (having discussed this with them as recently as last week). As well, it has been established that he is not a PhD, and that he has used the term "Doctor" to refer to an Italian degree that Westerners would mistake for a PhD.

 

The arguments about left handed path and right handed path I can see where some people are coming from, but don't agree with. Which is fine. I can also see where vegetarians come from, and I myself don't believe in cruelty to animals, but love meat. So I eat it. What happens in slaughter houses and animal fur manufacturing and gathering is what's truly horrifyng, but yet many of those making arguments still eat meat. Even if I disagreed of the gathering of the chi from bulls (Which I don't) - how could I argue it, as I eat meat. That would make me a hypocrite. I think it's pretty simple logic. Because it's the taking of energy, and not meat, it's not OK. Where does the energy in the universe come from? The energy from trees, etc? Aren't we always taking from something? I don't provide these points to argue - I just don't understand the base of the argument.

 

There is no debate that what you are engaged in is Left Hand Path. No debate at all.

 

As well, some of the longest living Daoist "immortals" were vegetarians, INCLUDING Li, Ching-Yuen. Maybe they were on to something. Still, your comparison is like a prostitute pointing to married women promising their husband sex (or something particularly kinky), in exchange for a favor. So if a woman is going to use sex to get her man to do something then she might as well be a prostitute, right? This is the logic of saying that if you eat meat then you might as well torture animals and feed of their pain and terror.

 

To the students I spoke to in Denmark, they have seen much and have no question about their practice or David. What's funny is, I also spoke to some first time studnets who were studying with David for the first time, and who don't necessarily believe in the atainment of powers, but still greatly respected David and his teachings, and spent the money for the seminars.

 

More unverifiable claims of third party testimony. This seems to be a common theme.

 

I know one thing for sure, coming up with the money and the time to make it to Denmark was not easy, but it was one of the highlights of my life. I can't wait to go again this year. What I learned, the people I met, and the experiences I had are all beyond measure.

 

i'm sure it was a fun experience for you, but this does not mean that David's claims of personal attainment are AT ALL legitimate.

Edited February 6, 2008 by Hern Heng

[DentyDao]

This is fine but if you attend a seminar once a year and are a beginner right now then it is likely you will find many difficulties.

Since you have nver studied with David and don't know anyone who has, you aren't really in a position to say for sure what students face.

 

 

 

...i'll add another: Proof of even having mastered Yang Qi to an extraordinary degree. Yin and Yang is ALWAYS "joined" in the body or there would be no life! What Yin-Yang Kung fusion entails is different (but similar), drawing on the Yin throughout the body, the extraordinary amount of Yang Qi in the Dan T'ien being used to draw in more Yin qi through the body; then drawn and merged together (fused), and stored in the dan t'ien. IF successful, he would be able to do electrogenesis.

 

David has reached level four and he can and has demonstrated this and I would be happy to show you the video privately. The Mopai is a branch of the Lei Shan Dao, of which David is a student. There are around 12 methods within the Lei Shan Dao and five 'cords' that are cut to become level four; the cords to be cut are the same for all branches of the Lei Shan Dao. While the school that David belongs to uses some methods in common with Mopai, there are differences. The outcome is the same and produces the same effects and abilities.

 

It's true that not all practitioners who can generate 'electric like qi' belong to Lei Shan Dao or have cut the cords required to achieve 'level four.' David has and he was clear about this. Now that it's out there, it can either be believed or not, but that is the stance that David has taken.

 

If he had taught David then there would likely be mention of this by a known member of the Mo Pa'i (not just some unnamed guy who "knows" John Chang, as so many do).

If you know John, then you know that he stopped teaching neigong to western students. David attained what he has with a different master

 

The argument is NOT about John Chang, it is about David, Sean, Harry, you and your momma. Stop trying to obfuscate the issue by talking about someone legitimate and then acting as this legitimizes David for POSSIBLY having MET him!

It's well known that David studied with Pak John, he remains a nonpracticing student and loves his teacher very much. Ask any of John's students.

 

As well, some of the longest living Daoist "immortals" were vegetarians, INCLUDING Li, Ching-Yuen. Maybe they were on to something. Still, your comparison is like a prostitute pointing to married women promising their husband sex (or something particularly kinky), in exchange for a favor. So if a woman is going to use sex to get her man to do something then she might as well be a prostitute, right? This is the logic of saying that if you eat meat then you might as well torture animals and feed of their pain and terror.

 

The animals, which are going to be slaughtered in anycase, are treated with respect, not tortured, and allowed to live peacefully in their last weeks before being taken to market. Daoists are very practical people and this is an ancient practice that predates any written history. Daoism, because of its nature was never fully established in to a creed; and its doctrines means and practices were transmitted 'outside the canon' of formal religious belief, maintaining a purity and a freedom from any conceptual and biased belief, allowing them to truly reach beyond names and forms and the illusions of good and evil.

Edited February 6, 2008 by seandenty

[RFunaki]

More could be said, but it's clear that it's pointless.

 

Hopefully those that are inclined to check out what David has to offer will, and those who aren't - won't. I actually am a fan of a healthy debate, but just don't have the time for it. And I can see that this is just arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

So it's pretty simple. To each their own, right? And we both go on our merry way.

 

Best wishes,

- Rick F.

[Buddy]

Left hand path---in the world

 

 

Right hand path---monastic

 

Center---Buddhist

[rain]

...............

Edited April 17, 2008 by rain

[HouTian]

Andreas's only intention of introducing David was to "Cleverly" Lead Students away from his own Teacher. Who in Reality was rather Fed Up with Foreign Strangers appearing at His Front Door. Looks like it Worked & Proved Davids students are not as Bright as Some people are lead to believe.

 

As for David & the Wang Liping Book,This means nothing.

 

Kosta too wrote a book & we all know what happen to Him. Was eventually kicked out of the Pai & Later ended up with Cancer and is currently under going Extreme Sessions of Chemo-Therapy.

 

Shifu Wang has more then enough students who are far more Authorized to write a book on His Behalf then a 12 month Rookie student cashing in on commercialization.

 

Regards,

[Long Yun]

HouTian Posted Today, 03:39 AM

 

Kosta too wrote a book & we all know what happen to Him. Was eventually kicked out of the Pai & Later ended up with Cancer and is currently under going Extreme Sessions of Chemo-Therapy.

 

Wow. I had heard that he was no longer a student, but I hadn't heard about the cancer. I figured that the health benefits of qigong/neigong could have helped him avoid disease. I think everyone has had someone they know die of cancer, and even though I don't particularly respect the man I still think this is no way to die. I hope he recovers well.

[Pero]

Shifu Wang has more then enough students who are far more Authorized to write a book on His Behalf then a 12 month Rookie student cashing in on commercialization.

 

And you know this, how?

[gendao]

Wow. I had heard that he was no longer a student, but I hadn't heard about the cancer. I figured that the health benefits of qigong/neigong could have helped him avoid disease. I think everyone has had someone they know die of cancer, and even though I don't particularly respect the man I still think this is no way to die. I hope he recovers well.

I believe Mo Pai is a rather forceful and high-risk method - and getting to level 4 even with a teacher's guidance is risky. I think Kostas tried to do it alone and sounds like he paid the price. And others have also died before him attempting the same thing, I believe...

[Adam West]

 

Kosta too wrote a book & we all know what happen to Him. Was eventually kicked out of the Pai & Later ended up with Cancer and is currently under going Extreme Sessions of Chemo-Therapy.

 

Regards,

 

Hi HouTian!

 

I don't know the story of Kosta getting kicked out of the Mo Pai lineage (other than John Chang refusing to teach anymore students after that incident in showing off and drawing blood at the cafe), can you tell it or post a link to where I might find it?

 

Thanks mate!

 

 

Wow. I had heard that he was no longer a student, but I hadn't heard about the cancer. I figured that the health benefits of qigong/neigong could have helped him avoid disease. I think everyone has had someone they know die of cancer, and even though I don't particularly respect the man I still think this is no way to die. I hope he recovers well.

 

According to his book, his father also died of cancer. I think it is more plausible that his family has a genetic propensity for presenting with cancer rather than any insinuation that his Mo Pai training caused it.

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

Edited February 8, 2008 by Adam West

[Hern Heng]

Kosta should contact me if he comes across this. i have had experiences with several successful cancer survivors who have used only herbs and nutritive therapy. i'd be happy to help with advise from my experiences. If the cancer isn't incredibly far along there is almost certainly a high probability that he can deal with it. If far alone it is still potentially treatable. Treating with Qi emission alone and acupuncture is not always the solution. Sometimes you need to do multiple things (in large part because diet plays such a key role in the development of cancer). i don't want this to turn into a cancer thread, but if someone is in touch with him, feel free to pass the offer along.

[witch]

Goodness! I would say I follow the "Left Hand Path" but clearly what I mean by it is very different than what is stated in this thread. I will be careful with my language from now on. For me, the Left Hand Path is not intrinsically parasitic, but rather a deep self-knowledge of one's base desires.

 

I don't know anything about the situation discussed in this thread, but I had to say something about that.

[Pietro]

Goodness! I would say I follow the "Left Hand Path" but clearly what I mean by it is very different than what is stated in this thread. I will be careful with my language from now on. For me, the Left Hand Path is not intrinsically parasitic, but rather a deep self-knowledge of one's base desires.

 

I don't know anything about the situation discussed in this thread, but I had to say something about that.

for all of us witch. this is the first time i see it described in this way.

And I don't think I agree one inch with that description.

[Hern Heng]

for all of us witch. this is the first time i see it described in this way.

And I don't think I agree one inch with that description.

 

If you'd like to intellectualize the matter, i could refer you to textual quotes if books are regarded as more authoratative than reason.

 

i say this because it is only reasonable that Dao is balance not left or right, nor the sum of the two but what is when the two are neither this nor that. T'aiji is not Yin + Yang but contains Yin and Yang. Dao strives for Wu Wei; which is inherently NEITHER left nor right.

 

Again, i hate "quote" wars (particularly on the Internet), but if this does not stand as reasonable enough for you then i can refer you to quotes to this end and textual definitions of Left and Right.

[Pietro]

If you'd like to intellectualize the matter, i could refer you to textual quotes if books are regarded as more authoratative than reason.

 

I'd be happy to receive the reference, but, you know, I am the kind of bitch who would then want to put the afermentioned texts in their context. I mean people have been chopped each other happily for close to two thousand years because they were doing different practices. Confucianist and Taoist, Taoist and Buddhist. All for the favour of the emperor. And whoever was on the side of the emperor would generally get the right to say:

"those dogs? Just banish them and give us their temples".

Now you want to prove me that there were people in the past who disliked left hand taoist. But of course they were. The problem is: is this how left hand daoist described themselves, or is this how right hand daoist, central daoist, confucianist or buddhist described them?

[Hern Heng]

Left Hand Path particularly traces to Qabalistic origins, though it is employed throughout esoteric traditions today. Mantak Chia references a similar description in the Taoist Secrets of Love book, and Daniel Feldman writes a great cross-cultural Qabalah text (drawing in a bit of Daoism). There are countless Qabalistic texts dating throughout at least the past 1000 years, and arguably the past 2000 that explain Left Hand as about leaching to empower the "self" while "Center" is concerned with the seamless interchange of energies (with the illusory "self" being "charged" by the power of the WHOLE); a description that Chia gives in the aforementioned book, though in purely non-Judaic terms.

 

Since Western Occultism references "Left Hand" from borrowing purely from Masonic borrowing of Qabalism, it serves to reason that the source (Qabalistic perspective), have authority over Western interpretations of the same.

 

Right = devotional

Center = Whole Power

Left = powered up fragment

 

Personal opinions aside, i would be genuinely interested in a source from outside of Western Occultism that defines Left hand path differently.

[Buddy]

I already did.