Vedantic non-dual vs. Abhinavagupta's non-dual

[s1va]

I can quote more.  Entire books.  What is the point?  Abhinavagupta says what he is talking about is different from Vedanta!  What does he know, right? We know better what he knows than perhaps him.

 

"Abhinavagupta insists that his view of the creative nature of absolute reality should not be confused with the views of the Samkhya or Vedanta"

 

Quote

In addition, the unreal essence is not capable of creating such a grandiose presentation. If she is really capable of creating, then she is without a doubt a real entity, not an apparent and indescribable one (ibid., 80).

 

At the very beginning of his enormous work, he also criticizes one more of the theories of the universe, namely the concept of illusion (vivarta-vada). This theory has two aspects. First, it refers to the phenomenon of a non-existent phenomenon, such as, for example, a dream or a mirage.

 

According to this view, the universe does not exist, but only seems to be an existing reality. Vivarta can also refer to some phenomenon, which in fact is not what it seems, as, for example, a rope can be mistaken for a snake, or a shell for silver. In accordance with this aspect of the vivartas, Brahman exists, but falsely appears as God, a limited soul and inanimate matter.

 

According to Abhinavagupta:

It is said that the vivarta is a manifestation of a non-existent entity. How can it be unreal, when it is manifested? No one paid proper attention to this discrepancy.
(ibid., 18).

 

Abhinavagupta observes that the essence that clearly manifests and creates the universe must be something real and significant, and should be described accordingly. In his commentary on Paratrishika, Abhinavagupta insists that his view of the creative nature of absolute reality should not be confused with the views of the Samkhya or Vedanta, since this is an exclusively Shivaite view (Paratrishikavirana V.181).

 

[s1va]

20 minutes ago, neti neti said:

 

Seriously, I fear loss of sleep if some of the atrocious wrongs aren't righted sometimes. Lol.

 

But when you try, you're automatically labeled the bad guy for denying this or that text with hardly any attempt to acknowledge what was said.

 

Go figure. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. 

 

That fight against the atrocious wrongs can be daunting.  Good luck!

[neti neti]

32 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

That fight against the atrocious wrongs can be daunting.  Good luck!

 

Actually, when the felt need to respond arises not much effort is required, if any at all. I appreciate your best wishes though.

 

What can be daunting is how the degrees of error in understanding manifest, the complexity of subtle nuances which must be navigated in order to shed light upon the truth of a matter... only to then be ignored.

Edited September 11, 2018 by neti neti

[s1va]

6 minutes ago, neti neti said:

 

Actually, when the felt need to respond arises not much effort is required, if any at all. I appreciate your best wishes though.

 

What can be daunting is how the degrees of error in understanding manifest, the complexity of subtle nuances which must be navigated in order to shed light upon the truth of a matter... only to then be ignored.

 

I used to be engaged in such fights from time to time.  So I know they can be daunting.  I see no need to engage in those anymore.  If all we see are expressions of beauty, there is nothing to fight

[neti neti]

34 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

I used to be engaged in such fights from time to time.  So I know they can be daunting.  I see no need to engage in those anymore.  If all we see are expressions of beauty, there is nothing to fight

 

Oh trust that there is no battle. Lol. I'm just acutely aware of how unprofitable entertaining the notion of differentiation between expressions without end can ultimately be. But of course, to each their own.

 

And with this I respectfully bow out. A subtle nuance for you to consider; seeing not the beauty of many different expressions, rather, the seeing of that beauty as but One expression, amidst a myriad of its appearances. Regards.

Edited September 11, 2018 by neti neti

[s1va]

5 minutes ago, neti neti said:

 

Oh trust that there is no battle. Lol. I'm just acutely aware of how unprofitable entertaining the notion of differentiation between expressions without end can be. But of course, to each their own.

 

And with this I respectfully bow out. A subtle nuance for you to consider; seeing not the beauty of many different expressions, rather, the seeing of beauty as but One expression, amidst a myriad of its appearances. Regards.

 

Ha ha .  You don't give up even when you bow out!

 

Regards and best wishes!

[neti neti]

31 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

Ha ha .  You don't give up even when you bow out!

 

Regards and best wishes!

 

Keep on performing, or, bow out?

 

Meh. Same Difference! 

[s1va]

I talked about different destinations earlier in this thread.  Came across the following and wanted to share.  I find the Aparamuktas very interesting.  They experience oneness with Shiva and join his world of pure beings, but it states with some of their individuality still intact.  This retaining of some individuality is perhaps what maintains the separation of them as a being or a deity we feel.

 

Quote

Abhinavagupta mentions three types of liberation. Paramuktas are the souls who become absorbed in Parasiva (formless Siva) after liberation. Aparamuktas are the souls who experience oneness with Siva and join his world of pure beings with some of their individuality still intact. Jivanmuktas are the souls who are liberated while still in their physical bodies. The Gorakshnatha tradition believes that once union with Siva consciousness is achieved in a state of samadhi, beings are never deluded again. They remain absorbed in their highest consciousness even while performing mundane tasks. They suffer no more from the impurities or duality. Whatever may the path they choose, for Jivanmuktas there are no more births and rebirths.

 

[Jeff]

22 minutes ago, s1va said:

I talked about different destinations earlier in this thread.  Came across the following and wanted to share.  I find the Aparamuktas very interesting.  They experience oneness with Shiva and join his world of pure beings, but it states with some of their individuality still intact.  This retaining of some individuality is perhaps what maintains the separation of them as a being or a deity we feel.

 

 

 

Thanks for the post. Could you post where you got the quote?

[s1va]

10 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Thanks for the post. Could you post where you got the quote?

 

 

Here is the link.  It is from an article on saivism.net explaining what maya means in shaivism.

 

https://www.saivism.net/articles/maya.asp

[s1va]

The Saiva Siddantha Tradition:. This is another major Shaivaite tradition similar in some ways to the Kaula and the Kashmir Shaivism tradition.  Though, some say the origins of the Saiva siddhanta can also be traced back to Kashmir starting from Nandinatha, it is unclear in my opinion as to where exactly this tradition started.  But it has flourished and thrives to this day on the southern India.  The famous siddhars from the south and the Siddhar traditions are also a subset of the Shaiva Siddhanta tradition.

 

Thirumular is one of the foremost propenent of this Shaiva sect.  Though there are differences in the Agamas, many of the core concepts are the same in almost all Shaivaite traditions.  In terms of the number of followers through the historic time periods and also number of works that were created, Saiva Siddhanta is far more popular in India compared to other Shaivite traditions.

 

The reason it is not so popular outside India, may be due to the fact, much of the works in this tradition are in Tamil and other southern languages and most of it is not translated to English or any other language to this day.  The so called Indologists or Sanskrit experts largely overlook or ignore these things.

 

Tirumandiram written by Thirumular is considered the core work and one of the building blocks of the Saiva Siddhanta tradition.  For example, it was not easy to find even a single decent English translation for Tirumandiram until just few years back.  These are poems composed in Tamil.  There is so much in them.  

 

Some consider Tirumandiram to be a Gold mine that is not fully explored.  One may be able to understand the mysteries of the Siddhars by reading these volumes.

 

http://www.thirumandiram.net/tirumandiram-about-the-book.html

 

 

Anyway, so much has changed in just the past few years.  Some Kriya yoga group with the help of some other organizations from different corners of the world, and taking the assistance of researchers, undertook the monumental task of translating The Tirumandiram to English and some other European languages (I think).  They have done an excellent job on my opinion.

 

Initially some 10 volumes of this was published and only limited copies (few hundred) were printed, due to the nature of this work and the fact it is unknown to most.  Each volume is considered a seperate tantra/tantiram.  I was lucky enough to purchase all volumes of this treasure trove from that limited print, directly from the publishers agent, while I was traveling in India few years back.  I have read only very little from this collection.  But, it is one of those rare things whose value I understand and feel happy to keep it in my book shelf and know, I can turn to them when I am so inclined.

 

For anyone interested in Shaivite traditions, this may be something worthwhile checking out.  Though I would also add caution there is devotion plus logic and much more in these beautiful poems and in their translation.

 

 

[s1va]

Here is a sample from the preface.

 

Quote

All the above Tirumurais are called tottirams (stotras – devotional literature), which constitute the bhakt literature of Tamil Saivism.  The philosophical literature of Tamil Saivism is called cattirams (sastras – philosophical treatises). The Tirumandiram is the only Tirumurai, which is both a cattiram and a tottiram in Tamil Saiva tradition. The Tirumandiram is a work with a little more than three thousand stanzas written in the kali-viruttam metre.  It conssts of nine sections called tantirams of different length withvarying subject matter. Calling the different sections of a work as tantiram is not to befound in any other classical Tamil work except in the Tirumandiram….” “According to Tirumular the best form of worship is not flower worship, but it is non-killing even an atom of life and the best place of worship is the heart where the soul resides (verse 197).  He does not seem to hae sung poems in praise of gods and goddesses of local temples as done by the Nayanmars and the Alvars.  This is a significant feature that distinguishes Tirumular from the other Saiva saints. This feature is one of the characteistic features of a Siddha.  A Siddha believes in a Supreme Being but not a God of this or that religion. Tirumular feels that rigid theism has been responsible for a good deal of unnecessary controversy and hostility among the followers of different religions (verses 1568 and 1533). Even though Tirumular speaks of the religious aspect of God, he believed in a Supreme abstraction “Sivam” without any limitation or attributes.  Sivam is grammatically and philosophically an impersonal conception.  As the Siddhas say, the ideal name for Sivam is “It” or “Adu” or “Thatness” or “Suchness” or Paraparam.” …”the Siddhas were not devotees in the sense of idol worshippers… They believed in a Supreme Abstraction.  The recurrent use by the Siddhas of the word civam (an abstract noun meaning ‘goodness,’ ‘auspiciousness’ and The highest state of God, in which He exists as pure intelligence) in preference to the common term civan (meaning Siva), makes this point very clear.  In other words, they believed in an abstract idea of Godhead rather than a personal God,” ). …” “Tirumular refers to Sivam as love.  His basic philosophy is love – an unadulterated, pure, spiritual love – that expects no bargain nor results.  His burden of the song is love, which is reflecterd in many of his verses (270,272-274, 276, 279, 280-282, 286, 287, 416, 1005, 1456, and 2980).  The three great statements of Tirumular are: (i) Love is God (anbe civam,verse 270);(ii) Let the whole world attain the bliss that I have received (yan perra inbam peruga i-v-vaiyam, verse 85), and (iii) Mankind is one family and God is one (onre kulamum oruvane tevanum, veerse 2104).  All these maha-vakyas of the Tirumandiram are the different ways of expressing that the Supreme Thing is love andlove only. Love is bliss which can be attained by anyone and hence mankind, nay theworld, is one family with love (God) as the basis.  To prevent the eruption of egoism,which is the anti-thesis of love, Tirumular has bestowed to the world the sastra (treatise)on the Tirumandiram (verse 87). The basis of Yoga or union is love.  Only through love one is merged with Sivam. Siva- aikya or Yoga is possible only through love. 

 

Tirumular says,

Like the sweet-love in sex-act experienced,

 

So in the Great love, let yourself to Him succumb. (verse 283)

 

Tirumular calls Yoga as Siva-Yoga (verse 122).  It is the method by which the jiva (soul) identifies itself with Siva.

 

[s1va]

I am reading (actually listening) to the Tantra Illuminated by Christopher Wallis.  Came across the following and wanted to share.  This part beautifully describes the bheda-abheda views of Kashmir Shaivism and what non-duality really meant to Abhinavagupta.

(Following quote is from the book mentioned above.  It is an audio book and I have typed the following.  Apologize for any mistakes or errors in transcribing.)  

 

Paramādvaita/Paramādvayavada - Abhinavagupta's Supreme Non-duality - All inclusive Heart of Reality

 

"Some see reality as inherently dualistic.  In other words that the distinction is ultimately real, this is called the 'bheda' or 'dwaita' view. They do good works and worship a separate almighty God, that they hope will bless them with his grace.  Others see distinctions that are subsumed within a greater unity with distinction and unity having equal weight in experience.  This is called the 'bheda-abheda' view. They cultivate spiritual knowledge and relish beautiful things as a vibration of consciousness.  Still others see completely non-dualistically.  That is seeing difference as unreal or only very superficially real with unity absolutely dominant in experience.  This is the 'abheda' or advaita view.  They reject all practices subtle and gross and dwell in the immediate intuitive insight of the transcendent 'I ' nature.  

 

So, where does the +1 come in this model of things?  Well, this is the key to understanding the ultimate consumption of the tantric philosophy.  You see the non-dual view just mentioned excludes the dualistic view.  Seeing it as simply wrong.  This is not an all inclusive non-duality and therefore it lends itself to transcendentalism and spiritual bypassing a major pitfall on the path.   Therefore Abhinavagupta presented a view he called  Paramādvaya, the supreme non-duality or the higher non-duality, which we already mentioned couple of times.  This view includes both duality and non-duality as valid experiences and levels of perception.  Non-duality transcends duality, but the supreme non-duality transcends the transcendent.  So, how do we understand this seeming paradox?

 

Because as again the supremely non-dual nameless forth is simultaneously transcendent and immanent.  It englobes includes emanates as all these different views.  It is the all inclusive heart of reality, the dynamic power of consciousness which articulates every possibility becomes everything and yet is no-thing.  We have stressed over and over again this higher tantric view that the divine is simultaneously transcendent and immanent precisely because the masters of the tradition tell us that understanding this teaching is right at the heart of the whole tantric project."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

There are more really interesting illustrations that just follows the above.  When I find time, I will type some more of what I found really interesting.  

[s1va]

The abilities or powers that unveil with Abhinavagupta's nondual realization:-   I was going over the five veils as described in Kashmir Shaivism and the qualities of a person who has overcome all of these 5 veils.  This illustrates once again the end result or the abilities that result because of the non-dual realization as described by Abhinavagupta. 

 

A person who has realized the Vedantic non-dual simply  revels in the state of sat-chit-ananda everlasting bliss.  However he may or may not have the abilities or powers listed below.  We can always question what is the point of the abilities or the powers listed below, it is all maya etc.  If our natural state is that of Shiva, and it is veiled by certain things, when that veils (kanchuka or cloak) are completely removed, we should also have the same exact abilities (like Shiva).  So, this can also act as a reality check to see if a person has truly reached the goal as per Abhinavagupta's non-dual -- whether they have really become 'like Shiva' or just attained a state of bliss (sat-chit-ananda).

 

1. The first veil is vidhya or knowledge.  Someone that has reached the non-dual state as described by Abhinavagupta should directly know everything that there is to know.   Jivas due to the veil of vidya/knowledge looks at each item or scene one by one.  Compared to this Shiva, knows everything at the same time.  Someone that has reached the state of Shiva will know everything.
2. The second veil is the kalA or ability to perform certain actions.  This is the veil that clouds jivas and makes them feel finite and do one thing at a time.  This veil also limits the power to create things like Shiva.  One who has overcome this veil will be able to will and with his will create things that do not exist like how Shiva does.
3. The third veil is from rAga or attachment.  This veil separates the person from the other things and creates desires and attachments.  Someone who has overcome this veil can exist in higher planes of formless consciousness.
4. The fourth is the niyathi that binds us to cause and effect and essentially with Space.  Due to this viel the jivas perceive themselves in a particular place or fragment in the space.  One who has overcome this veil, like Shiva is not bound by cause and effect and can be present everywhere or anywhere in the space.
5. The fifth is the veil of kAla or time.  The jivas are bound by the veil of time, the past, present and the future.  One who has overcome this veil should be able to perceive the events from distant past or future as they are happening in the present moment, since they are not bound by time/kala. 

[3bob]

umm, there are not a bunch of or multiple unveiled Siva's blissfully running around doing this or that super-duper action with this or that super-duper power,  - for there is only one Siva which is part of the unveiling/realization - 

 

(edit: which is what it often sounds like around here with people thinking and talking about getting  the power for themselves to do interesting and fantastic stuff)

Edited September 27, 2018 by 3bob

[s1va]

There are not multiple Shivas.  As per the KS view, there is only one Shiva with those unlimited abilities.  The jivas are just expanding to become like Shiva.

 

Any talk about power, immediately ticks off some in the wrong way.  One can immediately expect accusations about power seeking for personal purposes etc.  This is not about that.  Shiva is described with such great attributes and powers.  When a jiva becomes like Shiva, slowly things start to unveil.  This is the truth and how it works.   Everyone is already part of the divine and it's just obscured.  Whatever is obscuring, when it moves away, the jiva starts to shine.  Wonder why this is so hard to believe.

[3bob]

29 minutes ago, s1va said:

There are not multiple Shivas.  As per the KS view, there is only one Shiva with those unlimited abilities.  The jivas are just expanding to become like Shiva.

 

Any talk about power, immediately ticks off some in the wrong way.  One can immediately expect accusations about power seeking for personal purposes etc.  This is not about that.  Shiva is described with such great attributes and powers.  When a jiva becomes like Shiva, slowly things start to unveil.  This is the truth and how it works.   Everyone is already part of the divine and it's just obscured.  Whatever is obscuring, when it moves away, the jiva starts to shine.  Wonder why this is so hard to believe.

 

that may be one take s1va,  and it sounds like you still see a bunch of jiva's "expanding" and becoming a bunch of Siva's...while I'd say the realization is that the bunches of jiva's or souls are really only relative and apparent - thus in the end game - there is, was and only will be one Siva while the relative/apparent and countless jiva's or relative/apparent individual souls are just that and also limited in comparison... 

[dwai]

54 minutes ago, s1va said:

There are not multiple Shivas.  As per the KS view, there is only one Shiva with those unlimited abilities.  The jivas are just expanding to become like Shiva.

 

Any talk about power, immediately ticks off some in the wrong way.  One can immediately expect accusations about power seeking for personal purposes etc.  This is not about that.  Shiva is described with such great attributes and powers.  When a jiva becomes like Shiva, slowly things start to unveil.  This is the truth and how it works.   Everyone is already part of the divine and it's just obscured.  Whatever is obscuring, when it moves away, the jiva starts to shine.  Wonder why this is so hard to believe.

The jiva itself is an appearance alone. Adhyasa (super-imposition) of limitations by Shiva on himself. 

 

From the Shiva Sutras - A supreme awakening, First Awakening section --

Quote

2. jnanam bandhah

Knowing differentiatedly is bondage and not knowing undifferentiatedly is bondage.

In the first reading, when you unite these two sutras with the letter a, it reads caitanyam atma, ajnanam bandhah. When you do not unite them, then the reading will be caitanyam atma, jnanam bandhah. So the author defines the meaning of jnanain two ways: Jnanam bandhah, knowing is bondage, andajnanam bandhah, not knowing is bondage. Thus the mean- ing of the verse is knowing differentiatedly is bondage and not knowing undifferentiatedly is bondage. So, knowing(jnanam) is bondage and not knowing (ajnanam) is bond- age. These two meanings arise from combining and not combining the words in the first two verses, caitanyam atma from the first verse and jnanam bandhah from the second verse. Knowledge is bondage. What knowledge is bondage? Differentiated knowledge. What not knowing is bondage? Not knowing your own undifferentiated self. So knowing individual consciousness as one's own nature and not knowing

18

Siva Sutra 1.2

universal consciousness as one's own nature, are both bondage. In the path of Saivism, there is nothing that exists or that does not exist that is separated from citprakasa, the conscious self. Impurity (mala), therefore, also does not exist. So how can im- purity (mala) come between you and the conscious self, creating obstacles and bondage? It cannot. Then what is impurity(malap. Impurity is not dirt, impurity is ignorance.

 

We are told this in the Malini Vijaya Tantra:
Impurity (mala) is the ignorance (ajnana) of undifferentiated nature and the knowledge of differentiated nature. That ignorance is the cause of the sprout of samsara. (Malini Vijaya

Tantra)

It is also said in the Sarvacara Tantra:

Because of this ignorance, you are filled with differentiated, not undifferentiated, knowledge and you become bound in the wheel of repeated births and deaths. This happens in innumerable ways. (Sarvacara Tantra)

This contraction or limitation is caused by Paramesvara's great illusive energy. This is the great force of illusion that has risen by the power of his freedom. By this energy of his freedom, he conceals his nature and reveals this limitation in his own self just for play, not in trying to satisfy some deficiency or for plea- sure.

 

[s1va]

23 minutes ago, 3bob said:

 

that may be one take s1va,  and it sounds like you still see a bunch of jiva's "expanding" and becoming a bunch of Siva's...while I'd say the realization is that the bunches of jiva's or souls are really only relative and apparent - thus in the end game - there is, was and only will be one Siva while the relative/apparent and countless jiva's or relative/apparent individual souls are just that and also limited in comparison... 

 

You are describing the Advaidic view.  In the views of KS, the apparent is also real.  Both transcendent and immanent are true simultaneously at any point of time.  Countless jivas, expansion, all of it are real just like Shiva.  

 

Not dream like appearances, which Abhinavagupta rejects as vivarta vada.

[dwai]

Further more

 

Quote

The self is only a vacuum full of consciousness (akasakalpi).And within that vacuum, that contraction or limitation, are found the states from Anasrita Siva to limited jiva. The dem- onstration of limitation is bondage. The contraction is in the form of not knowing. It is ignorance, but ignorance of what? Ignorance of the oneness of Siva. The sign of bond- age is the feeling that you are incomplete (apurnammanyata).You agree that you are incomplete, that you are not full. That is the impurity (mala) known as anavamala. It is shrunken knowledge and it is ignorance. Why? It is shrunken knowledge because it is knowledge of the differentiated world and it is ignorance because it is ignorance of the undifferentiated state. When you do not know your undifferentiated state, that is ajnana (ignorance), and when you know your differentiated state, that is also limited jnana (knowledge). Jnana is bondage and ajnana is also bondage.

 

Bondage is not separate from being, it is combined with being. It is not possible that bondage comes from another source. Bondage is a result of your own freedom, your own free will with which you have bound yourself. This is the explanation given in this verse in Spanda Karika:

When, by your own freedom, your own free will, you become worthless, powerless, incapable of anything... (Spanda Karika1.9)

 

Not only knowledge is bondage. We have seen above that igno- rance is also bondage. When you think, "I am not the real self, I am not universal consciousness," that is bondage. But that is not the only bondage. When you insert ego into your body, that too is bondage. So there are two ways to explain this sutra. We can either explain it as ajnanam bandhah or jnanam bandhah. Ajnanam bandhah, "not knowing your own nature is bondage," and jnanam bandhah, "knowing your body as your own nature is bondage."

 

This is explained in this verse in Spanda Karika,
The supreme nectar is carried away from your nature ... (Spanda

Karika 3.14)

 

We concluded in the first sutra that the word caitanya means "complete freedom of universal consciousness." With regard to universal consciousness, anavamala is defined in two ways. In the first definition, anavamala is defined as the state of limited consciousness that exists when you are not in samadhi. In this definition of anavamala, even though you realize the nature of consciousness where you are always conscious and aware, you feel that this consciousness only exists while samadhi exists. When samadhi ends, the state of consciousness also ends.

 

The second understanding of anavamala is defined as that state of limited consciousness where you lose consciousness of your nature after coming out from samadhi where you are now free and enter into the external world. Here, in this variation ofanavamala, when you come out of samadhi and enter into the external world, you are free but then lose consciousness of your own nature and must return to the internal world to regain your consciousness. Both of these kinds of anavamala are bond- age.

 

You must either always remain in samadhi, where you are in your own real nature of consciousness, or while residing in the real nature of consciousness, you come out from that real nature into the external world. Then as soon as you come out from that real nature into the external world, you begin to lose that nature. So anavamala pervades two worlds, the external world and the internal world. When it pervades the internal world, then you cannot come out from there. When it pervades the external world, then it is pervading and yet, as soon as you come out into the external world, the consciousness of your real nature ends.

 

This is explained in this sloka in the Pratyabhijna Karika:

 

This anavamala is said to be twofold. Sometimes in the state of your consciousness, there is no freedom. That state of conscious- ness comes by the grace of God, not by your own will. Or if you find freedom (svatantrya), you will not experience universal con- sciousness in the same way you did in samadhi. Though you have freedom, universal consciousness is lessened.

Sometimes there is no freedom (svatantryahani), sometimes there is no awareness (abodha). In this way, the aspirant's real nature is taken away from him.

 

Edited September 27, 2018 by dwai

[s1va]

8 minutes ago, dwai said:

The jiva itself is an appearance alone. Adhyasa (super-imposition) of limitations by Shiva on himself. 

 

Yes, jiva is appearance in Advaita.  But in KS, it is not a meaningless super imposition.  It is all reflection of Shiva.  They are reflections, but jivas and the multitude is also a reality.  Together they all make the 'Heart' that Abhinavagupta describes as the abode of Shiva.

[dwai]

Just now, s1va said:

 

Yes, jiva is appearance in Advaita.  But in KS, it is not a meaningless super imposition.  It is all reflection of Shiva.  They are reflections, but jivas and the multitude is also a reality.  Together they all make the 'Heart' that Abhinavagupta describes as the abode of Shiva.

Quote

It is also said in the Sarvacara Tantra:

Because of this ignorance, you are filled with differentiated, not undifferentiated, knowledge and you become bound in the wheel of repeated births and deaths. This happens in innumerable ways. (Sarvacara Tantra)

This contraction or limitation is caused by Paramesvara's great illusive energy. This is the great force of illusion that has risen by the power of his freedom. By this energy of his freedom, he conceals his nature and reveals this limitation in his own self just for play, not in trying to satisfy some deficiency or for plea- sure.

 

[3bob]

2 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

You are describing the Advaidic view.  In the views of KS, the apparent is also real.  Both transcendent and immanent are true simultaneously at any point of time.  Countless jivas, expansion, all of it are real just like Shiva.  

 

Not dream like appearances, which Abhinavagupta rejects as vivarta vada.

 

I'm no expert on views,  but the Upanishads point to only one Self, not trillions x trillions  expanding to multiple one Selfs, and the immanent you mentioned as I see it is an aspect of the Self not a multiplication to trillions x trillions of Selfs. 

[s1va]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

 

 

Tirodhana (concealing grace) is one of the 5 acts of Shiva, due to which jivas do not know readily, they are all part of and make up the one Shiva.  It is the 5th act of Shiva (anugraha) which acts as divine grace and slowly unveils.

 

None of this can change the ground reality of KS, that both bheda (multitudes of jivas) and abheda  (non-dual) are equally valid at the same time.  No point in quoting all the non-dual portions or teachings from KS.  I get it.   But, it is only one part of the Paramadvayavada that Abhinavagupta expounded.

[3bob]

so in the earth, astral and causal realms there are trillions x trillions of relative beings, while in the Siva realm, if it can be called that, there is only Siva.

Edited September 27, 2018 by 3bob