Is there a difference between thought, intention and observation and awareness in meditation?

[AugustGreig]

I'm on day 50 of a dedicated routine, 30-60 minutes twice a day. My question is in the title. But more specifically, how am I too follow the instructions suggested to me during meditation without thinking? For example, observing the nature of thoughts, pondering, "Where do they come from?Where do they go?" 

 

Also, once Im, "In the zone," as I like to call it,I still have these vague thoughts which are just observations of what is happening. All thoughts of past or future melt away, except for the occasional thought of how I can try to describe the experience to someone else, but I'm working on that. Is this okay and a natural part of progression? They are not constant, and sometimes appear as chatter I can't even hear that sounds very far away.

 

Thank you. It's very difficult to even form these inquiries into coherent questions.

[Marblehead]

I wouldn't concern myself with that.  Our brain is still working while we are meditating.  It is going to cause conscious thought.

 

I think the key is to not pay any attention to them, let them arise and then fall away naturally.

 

[AugustGreig]

3 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I wouldn't concern myself with that.  Our brain is still working while we are meditating.  It is going to cause conscious thought.

 

I think the key is to not pay any attention to them, let them arise and then fall away naturally.

 

Okay, so don't allow them to carry you away into imagination, or out of the the moment, and don't feed them, correct? I try to practice that all day, but it is difficult.

 

My same inquiry extends to the breath; as of now, I kind of view it as a vehicle to get somewhere, not the destination. But some people have told me, "No. You must always be focused on the breath." I find this confusing and it has been disturbing my meditation sometimes.

[Marblehead]

5 minutes ago, AugustGreig said:

Okay, so don't allow them to carry you away into imagination, or out of the the moment, and don't feed them, correct? I try to practice that all day, but it is difficult.

I never said it was easy.

5 minutes ago, AugustGreig said:

 

My same inquiry extends to the breath; as of now, I kind of view it as a vehicle to get somewhere, not the destination. But some people have told me, "No. You must always be focused on the breath." I find this confusing and it has been disturbing my meditation sometimes.

I can't speak to that as it is something I do not practice.

 

[joeblast]

38 minutes ago, AugustGreig said:

Okay, so don't allow them to carry you away into imagination, or out of the the moment, and don't feed them, correct? I try to practice that all day, but it is difficult.

 

My same inquiry extends to the breath; as of now, I kind of view it as a vehicle to get somewhere, not the destination. But some people have told me, "No. You must always be focused on the breath." I find this confusing and it has been disturbing my meditation sometimes.

Until everything is coherent enough that random thought does not happen, then dont worry about thoughts.  Just as soon as you notice you are thinking, immediately return to breath work.  Its just part of training your body & mind.  If you put the entirety of the focus of your awareness into the mechanics of breathing, fine tuning them, trying to execute a 'perfect breath' over and over, you discover that so long as the awareness is sufficiently harnessed, then random thoughts tend to not creep up.  The caveat to this is that sensate input tends to "cause springs to fly out off the woodwork" since there are many logical loopings in the brain's wiring - so whatever remains of this 'energy-remainder' rides neural potentials right up into higher brain centers where it produces thought.  Whenever there's a significant remainder, something random's going to pop off.

 

This is why proper sitting and proper breathwork helps to eliminate the extraneous neural potentials that serve to form random thought.  When the flow of air drops beneath the threshold of turbulence in the airways, that's where things begin to get quiet.  Dont use anywhere that air touches to facilitate the movement of air through the system, only use the gut mechanics.  Once the body's rigorously trained on that.....which is in itself awareness-training...then you can be at a point where random thoughts dont pop up much at all, especially not in meditation.

 

Its that part in the movie where the student's being beaten with sticks (or ahnuld pushing the wheel crank in conan the barbarian,) and you realize that training's crucial to the foundation of what makes the character shine later on.

[AugustGreig]

36 minutes ago, joeblast said:

Until everything is coherent enough that random thought does not happen, then dont worry about thoughts.  Just as soon as you notice you are thinking, immediately return to breath work.  Its just part of training your body & mind.  If you put the entirety of the focus of your awareness into the mechanics of breathing, fine tuning them, trying to execute a 'perfect breath' over and over, you discover that so long as the awareness is sufficiently harnessed, then random thoughts tend to not creep up.  The caveat to this is that sensate input tends to "cause springs to fly out off the woodwork" since there are many logical loopings in the brain's wiring - so whatever remains of this 'energy-remainder' rides neural potentials right up into higher brain centers where it produces thought.  Whenever there's a significant remainder, something random's going to pop off.

 

This is why proper sitting and proper breathwork helps to eliminate the extraneous neural potentials that serve to form random thought.  When the flow of air drops beneath the threshold of turbulence in the airways, that's where things begin to get quiet.  Dont use anywhere that air touches to facilitate the movement of air through the system, only use the gut mechanics.  Once the body's rigorously trained on that.....which is in itself awareness-training...then you can be at a point where random thoughts dont pop up much at all, especially not in meditation.

 

Its that part in the movie where the student's being beaten with sticks (or ahnuld pushing the wheel crank in conan the barbarian,) and you realize that training's crucial to the foundation of what makes the character shine later on.

Seeing that you're speaking scientifically here, the way I understand it is that by focusing on observing your natural breath, you are able to connect directly to the unconscious mind from which all experience is created. Because the natural breath is automatic but also can be consciously controlled to an extent, following the breath without controlling it is the roadmap back to the source. So we arrive somewhere that doesn't exist, that can be gazed upon but not seen, listened to but not heard. It can only be felt, and thus our intentions must be pure and our heart open and loving. Is this accurate?

 

To expand upon this, would that mean that Qigong practice is the way to really fine tune the breath, or rather, harmonize the body and the breath so that they act as one and thus no longer hinder awakening, but rather facilitate it?

 

Thank you very much. That did help.

[Walker]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

I never said it was easy.

I can't speak to that as it is something I do not practice.

 

 

I seem to remember you saying on this site before that you don't meditate. Am I mistaken?

[Marblehead]

26 minutes ago, Walker said:

 

I seem to remember you saying on this site before that you don't meditate. Am I mistaken?

You just misunderstood me.  I have no "practice".  I do meditate though.  Empty-minded type.  It's not really a practice as I just sit there and keep my mouth shut and allow the brain to rest.

 

[joeblast]

2 hours ago, AugustGreig said:

Seeing that you're speaking scientifically here, the way I understand it is that by focusing on observing your natural breath, you are able to connect directly to the unconscious mind from which all experience is created. Because the natural breath is automatic but also can be consciously controlled to an extent, following the breath without controlling it is the roadmap back to the source. So we arrive somewhere that doesn't exist, that can be gazed upon but not seen, listened to but not heard. It can only be felt, and thus our intentions must be pure and our heart open and loving. Is this accurate?

 

To expand upon this, would that mean that Qigong practice is the way to really fine tune the breath, or rather, harmonize the body and the breath so that they act as one and thus no longer hinder awakening, but rather facilitate it?

 

Thank you very much. That did help.

following without controlling?  no.  its "program the mechanics thusly" and ingrain it until it is maximally ingrained into your very being.  pure intention and loving heart has absolutely nothing to do with it.  "following without controlling" comes after Regulating is completed - regulating until no more regulation is required - then with that dynamic already set up, then one can use less mental capital yet still achieve the same efficiency.

 

the breath is just a very foundational aspect - and if people want results that are repeated pretty much every session, then ingrain the behavior until subconscious, the programming carries its inertia forth into practice, daily life both waking and sleeping.  focusing on that which one is doing in the present will better ingrain the muscle memory - and for the breath this means the instruction set programmed onto the medulla - this means the better one keeps awareness while training the breath, the more thoroughly the training will be absorbed by the body.

 

lie back in the bath and let the water against your eardrums - now figure out how to breathe silently so that you cant hear it at all.  that's indications on how to breathe meditatively. 

 

connecting directly to....nah....think of it as stripping away extraneous movement and improving efficiency.  wrt neural activity, the unmanifested is where you want to leave it while in meditation.

[silent thunder]

Thoughts arise, seemingly of themselves and this is natural.

 

Like clouds form and dissipate in the sky, so too, my thoughts arise and dissolve.

 

I let them. 

 

And just as when I walk under the great sky and notice the clouds, I don't judge which cloud is best, or which is ill-formed... I no longer churn and judge each thought that arises even when my intent is to sit in stillness and emptiness.

 

Soon enough, no matter how big, dark or stormy they are... the thoughts will dissipate and the sky (mind's natural state) will return.

 

Rest assured the process your intention has instigated with this process is fluid and ongoing, it is happening when thoughts arise and when you are clear and in my experience, through all of it our true nature is as spotless as the sky.  We can't paint, scratch or mark our true nature... just as we can't drive a nail into the sky to hang a picture.

[AugustGreig]

3 hours ago, joeblast said:

following without controlling?  no.  its "program the mechanics thusly" and ingrain it until it is maximally ingrained into your very being.  pure intention and loving heart has absolutely nothing to do with it.  "following without controlling" comes after Regulating is completed - regulating until no more regulation is required - then with that dynamic already set up, then one can use less mental capital yet still achieve the same efficiency.

 

the breath is just a very foundational aspect - and if people want results that are repeated pretty much every session, then ingrain the behavior until subconscious, the programming carries its inertia forth into practice, daily life both waking and sleeping.  focusing on that which one is doing in the present will better ingrain the muscle memory - and for the breath this means the instruction set programmed onto the medulla - this means the better one keeps awareness while training the breath, the more thoroughly the training will be absorbed by the body.

 

lie back in the bath and let the water against your eardrums - now figure out how to breathe silently so that you cant hear it at all.  that's indications on how to breathe meditatively. 

 

connecting directly to....nah....think of it as stripping away extraneous movement and improving efficiency.  wrt neural activity, the unmanifested is where you want to leave it while in meditation.

I took your suggestions along with what I learned from "The Secret of the Golden Flower" today, and I had a major breakthrough. I was able to move qi for the first time, and feel rooted for the first time. I suffer debilitating back pain from scheuermann's disease and I often have severe pain while meditating. It happened today, but this time I observed it, really observed it, and was able to use the breath to move it by just barely adjusting my posture, like you said, kind of keeping it simple, economy o motion, and could feel it migrate up and lessen away until I felt warm electriity strengthen my spine.

 

This may sound like not much, but it was the first time I've been able to sit up straight co fortably in over 20 years. After that, I felt like I was buzzing and tingling, and my consciousness seemed to enter my entire body. I could feel my feet, everything. I felt so... Perfect... Harmony, serene, like no effort at all. Then a while later I felt like I was plugged in to the ground through my butt. It was so awesome. 50 minutes flew by, and I only stopped because of YouTube autoplay switching to something loud an obnoxious.

 

I just want to thank you so much.

[AugustGreig]

Just to add, the next day I was able to do it again at night, not in the morning, an this time I felt like I was? my breath. I coul feel it expanding from my stomach to my legs like electric warmth.Also, it started out as kind of a current in the hips, base of the spine and sacrum. Is this correct?

[Marblehead]

20 minutes ago, AugustGreig said:

Just to add, the next day I was able to do it again at night, not in the morning, an this time I felt like I was? my breath. I coul feel it expanding from my stomach to my legs like electric warmth.Also, it started out as kind of a current in the hips, base of the spine and sacrum. Is this correct?

Interestingly, this reminded me of "breathing from the heels".

 

[AugustGreig]

4 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Interestingly, this reminded me of "breathing from the heels".

 

Me too. I've never been able to do this in Tai Chi or Qigong, so I want to make sure I'm not skipping a step, as I have a bad habit of doing. The more I learn, the more I realize that past a certain point, intelligence only serves to get you tangled up in things. Thought must be balanced by proper action.

Edited September 18, 2018 by AugustGreig
Auto"correct"

[Walker]

On 9/16/2018 at 10:54 PM, Marblehead said:

You just misunderstood me.  I have no "practice".  I do meditate though.  

 

Umm humm. Reminds me of the famous koan, "what is the sound of one hair splitting?"

 

To the OP:

 

The definitions of the words you mention are all worth contemplating. Many Daoist and Buddhist texts, including those aimed at beginners, both make use of these words as well as devote time to trying to clarify their implications. 

 

Thought: This might be a translation of 念/nian, 心念/xin'nian, or 念頭/niantou. Roughly speaking, that refers to the verbalized "voice in the head" and various images that pop into the mind. 

Intention: This may be a translation of 意/yi. In the context of some Daoist meditation techniques, it is very close in meaning to "attention," or even, "where you happen to place your mind." If you were instructed to pay attention to your breath, a Chinese teacher might say, "注意你的呼吸." The first two characters, 注意/zhuyi, are a word which would be translated for meaning as "pay attention." However, it literally means to "pour your thinking into," or something along those lines. There's no need to try and figure out what the hell it means to pour your attention somewhere; the point of this hyper literal translation isn't to enforce a hyper literal meaning--rather it's to try and soften the effect of the words and reveal the meaning. 

Observation: This may be much the same as 注意/zhuyi. It could also be the character 觀/guan, or any of several others that are used in meditation texts and oral teachings. Sometimes 觀 means to see things in a certain way, as in when Avalokiteshvara (觀音/Guanyin) "looks upon the five aggregates as all being empty" in the opening lines of the Heart Sutra, which is a text that influenced countless Daoist writings over the last 1,000+ years.

Awareness: Likely refers to 覺/jue. We might call this "awareness in the raw." Awareness is what underlies all of the sensory faculties (hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, feeling, knowing the contents of one's own mind), but it is not those faculties, nor is it the sensory data they are associated with. Losing a sense faculty--e.g., becoming blind--would not lessen your awareness. Gaining a new sense faculty--your third eye opens--would not increase it. Awareness cannot be added to nor subtracted from. It has no beginning and no end. From the standpoint of we mortal humans in the world, however, it is often or usually "invisible" to us, seems to have beginnings and end, and seems to be able to be covered up or occluded. Therefore, to "become aware of awareness" is a step one finds in the teachings of many traditions, not just Daoism.

 

These ideas can be (and in some circumstances should be) discussed at great length and in great detail, but all of that grinding of mental gears must be balanced out by actual practice if it is to be anything more than a grey hair inducing hobby. I defer to Joe Blast's posts here when it comes to actual meditation instructions. He has offered valuable insights. 

[AugustGreig]

6 hours ago, Walker said:

 

Umm humm. Reminds me of the famous koan, "what is the sound of one hair splitting?"

 

To the OP:

 

The definitions of the words you mention are all worth contemplating. Many Daoist and Buddhist texts, including those aimed at beginners, both make use of these words as well as devote time to trying to clarify their implications. 

 

Thought: This might be a translation of 念/nian, 心念/xin'nian, or 念頭/niantou. Roughly speaking, that refers to the verbalized "voice in the head" and various images that pop into the mind. 

Intention: This may be a translation of 意/yi. In the context of some Daoist meditation techniques, it is very close in meaning to "attention," or even, "where you happen to place your mind." If you were instructed to pay attention to your breath, a Chinese teacher might say, "注意你的呼吸." The first two characters, 注意/zhuyi, are a word which would be translated for meaning as "pay attention." However, it literally means to "pour your thinking into," or something along those lines. There's no need to try and figure out what the hell it means to pour your attention somewhere; the point of this hyper literal translation isn't to enforce a hyper literal meaning--rather it's to try and soften the effect of the words and reveal the meaning. 

Observation: This may be much the same as 注意/zhuyi. It could also be the character 觀/guan, or any of several others that are used in meditation texts and oral teachings. Sometimes 觀 means to see things in a certain way, as in when Avalokiteshvara (觀音/Guanyin) "looks upon the five aggregates as all being empty" in the opening lines of the Heart Sutra, which is a text that influenced countless Daoist writings over the last 1,000+ years.

Awareness: Likely refers to 覺/jue. We might call this "awareness in the raw." Awareness is what underlies all of the sensory faculties (hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, feeling, knowing the contents of one's own mind), but it is not those faculties, nor is it the sensory data they are associated with. Losing a sense faculty--e.g., becoming blind--would not lessen your awareness. Gaining a new sense faculty--your third eye opens--would not increase it. Awareness cannot be added to nor subtracted from. It has no beginning and no end. From the standpoint of we mortal humans in the world, however, it is often or usually "invisible" to us, seems to have beginnings and end, and seems to be able to be covered up or occluded. Therefore, to "become aware of awareness" is a step one finds in the teachings of many traditions, not just Daoism.

 

These ideas can be (and in some circumstances should be) discussed at great length and in great detail, but all of that grinding of mental gears must be balanced out by actual practice if it is to be anything more than a grey hair inducing hobby. I defer to Joe Blast's posts here when it comes to actual meditation instructions. He has offered valuable insights. 

Good stuff. I find it very difficult to balance intention and awareness though. I'm doing better, but that the issue. When I have a session where I have a breakthrough, I want it every time and so I'm missing out on other thing by cutting off my awareness as that intention turns into desire. Still, this was all extremely helpful. You get the idea from some people that youre supposed to be in a blissful trance during meditation, among other fallacies. I just wanted to be clear about things. I understand language better than anything, so thank you.

[joeblast]

2 hours ago, AugustGreig said:

Good stuff. I find it very difficult to balance intention and awareness though. I'm doing better, but that the issue. When I have a session where I have a breakthrough, I want it every time and so I'm missing out on other thing by cutting off my awareness as that intention turns into desire. Still, this was all extremely helpful. You get the idea from some people that youre supposed to be in a blissful trance during meditation, among other fallacies. I just wanted to be clear about things. I understand language better than anything, so thank you.

that's why I chuckled at folks balking at establishing it via the rote method, because "you perform as you practice," so when the neural dynamic is situated properly and those efficiency benchmarks start getting hit every session...that's when signposts happen every session.  there's a progression of them, and downstream they include things like "boosts in metabolic rate" like that from just having completed a month of solid workouts as overall efficiency climbs, plateaus, climbs again.

 

intention...desire...bliss...a jedi craves not these things

 

the best part about maximal efficiency is no matter how long you're sitting there, you're just sitting there comfortably for a moment.  the de-linking of the feelings of breath from the mechanism of respiration is part of getting there.  short breath holds convey a nice quiescence, but unfortunately one gets oxygen deficient (or co2 overloaded) by doing that.  by smoothing out the transitions between inhale and exhale, making all the energetically potent portions coincident, and not facilitating air movement where air touches and nerves can detect that air movement, not only is a great quiescence realized, but it makes things like dantien breathing glow.  and then you start realizing from experience, how much extra energy all that sensate input processing consumes.  and how much it conserves, by stopping it very efficiently for an hour or four a day   (it doesnt seem that wild of a number when you're getting some in the morning, a quickie mid morning, a quickie mid afternoon, a comforting reset after work, and then 1-2 hours before sleep.  no, not that kinda quickie - energy quickies )

[Zen Pig]

 Hi guys, newbie here, with just a couple thoughts from the peanut gallery, so here goes.

I like what Shunryu Suzuki said about sitting meditation, and it has helped me.  he says to "sit, to only sit", without any expectations of anything, without wanting or not wanting to accomplish anything, only sitting.  For me, that little thing in my head that wanted something, or wanted something to stop, like thoughts, was the very thing that kept the thinking mind active.  So if a thought comes, (and I have been sitting every day for years, and thoughts still arise), I just see them like someone else said, " like a cloud floating over"  no big deal.  And yes the mind will slowly settle down.  This took many years,  and meditation for me is not an instant thing, which might be why, in today's world many folks do not like to do it.  Today, we are use to instant gratification, and meditation moves in inches,  but after a time, I found the rewards to be well worth it. 

 

Lastly my take on Intent and its co-part Intuition.  I cannot define or tell someone what Intent, or Intuition is.   They seem to come from a place deeper than the thinking mind.  I can only make a comparison that might help.  Many think the Will Power and Intent is the same thing.  they seem to be related, but for me, Will power comes from the thinking, planning mind.  (Like saying, "tomorrow, I am going to workout every day, and eat good food), which many can make happen with will power,  but many times, it doesn't last.  Intent on the other hand, just arises,  and once Intent opens up,  things get done.  Much like it's cousin, Intuition, where by the thinking mind that is trying to understand a problem, or solve a problem, might not be able to do so,   so then we just kind of walk away, have a cup of coffee, and take the thinking mind off the problem, and from no where the solution is right there.  In a flash of insight, that arose when we were not even thinking about it.  So Intent is to will power, as Intuition is to thought.  Interesting subject.  good luck sitting. zp

[Marblehead]

5 minutes ago, Zen Pig said:

So Intent is to will power, as Intuition is to thought. 

I like what you said above and overall agree.  However, this that I have quoted caused my mind to question the part about intuition.

 

In my experiences, intuition self-rises; Tzujan.  It happens prior to any conscious thought.  However, once arisen, many times, but not always, conscious thought is applied to this intuitional arising.

 

Are we talking about the same thing?

 

 

 

[Zen Pig]

sounds like we are saying the same thing.  I had to work a lot of this stuff out by myself,  as I have never found a good site, or book or discussion on Intuition, or intent.  but the idea that conscious thought is part of the process makes sense,  as I don't see the different levels of consciousness as separate.  For me, the whole idea of Newtonian cause and effect was developed in order to explain action and reaction, but I see that every effect is a cause, and every cause is an effect, much like the metaphorical spider web, where each movement both is effected by other movements, and causes other movements, in a seamless fluid dance. (so to speak)

[OldDog]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

 

In my experiences, intuition self-rises; Tzujan.  It happens prior to any conscious thought.  However, once arisen, many times, but not always, conscious thought is applied to this intuitional arising.

 

I also liked ZP's explanation ... and Marblehead's comment above seems to fine tune it.

 

Intuition has always been a big part of my process ... how I navigate life. I've often thought of it as the impulse that initiates an idea which can become an object of thought ... but not always, at least not immediately, as noted.  The idea is usually just tucked away for later reflection. Immediately proceeding to thought often causes the original idea to be forgotten.

 

I don't know where intuition comes from exactly or how it's triggered but it seems to be, as noted above, a non-conscious place. I have often thought that information gathered in is subconsciously being worked on ... and can emerge as an intuitive idea in the conscious. 

 

I just know thay intuitions are more often right than not ... maybe almost always right ... and should never be ignored or blown off.

 

Now, the notion of intent being analogous to intuition is something I have not considered before. So, I am grateful for that being pointed out . (Thanks, ZP!) It seems to fit in nicely with my concept of intuition. Where does it emerge from? What triggers it? Should the idea that intent gave rise to be tucked away for later reflection? At what point do I decide to apply will power to the idea of intent?

 

Provides a lot to ruminate on.

[dosa]

Confucius, he said “knowledge of their truth is much easier than do practice"
They are in the same group

[Small Fur]

On September 16, 2018 at 5:11 AM, AugustGreig said:

I'm on day 50 of a dedicated routine, 30-60 minutes twice a day. My question is in the title. But more specifically, how am I too follow the instructions suggested to me during meditation without thinking? For example, observing the nature of thoughts, pondering, "Where do they come from?Where do they go?" 

 

Also, once Im, "In the zone," as I like to call it,I still have these vague thoughts which are just observations of what is happening. All thoughts of past or future melt away, except for the occasional thought of how I can try to describe the experience to someone else, but I'm working on that. Is this okay and a natural part of progression? They are not constant, and sometimes appear as chatter I can't even hear that sounds very far away.

 

Thank you. It's very difficult to even form these inquiries into coherent questions.

 

On September 16, 2018 at 12:41 PM, AugustGreig said:

I took your suggestions along with what I learned from "The Secret of the Golden Flower" today, and I had a major breakthrough. I was able to move qi for the first time, and feel rooted for the first time. I suffer debilitating back pain from scheuermann's disease and I often have severe pain while meditating. It happened today, but this time I observed it, really observed it, and was able to use the breath to move it by just barely adjusting my posture, like you said, kind of keeping it simple, economy o motion, and could feel it migrate up and lessen away until I felt warm electriity strengthen my spine.

 

This may sound like not much, but it was the first time I've been able to sit up straight co fortably in over 20 years. After that, I felt like I was buzzing and tingling, and my consciousness seemed to enter my entire body. I could feel my feet, everything. I felt so... Perfect... Harmony, serene, like no effort at all. Then a while later I felt like I was plugged in to the ground through my butt. It was so awesome. 50 minutes flew by, and I only stopped because of YouTube autoplay switching to something loud an obnoxious.

 

I just want to thank you so much.

 

On September 16, 2018 at 5:32 AM, AugustGreig said:

Okay, so don't allow them to carry you away into imagination, or out of the the moment, and don't feed them, correct? I try to practice that all day, but it is difficult.

 

My same inquiry extends to the breath; as of now, I kind of view it as a vehicle to get somewhere, not the destination. But some people have told me, "No. You must always be focused on the breath." I find this confusing and it has been disturbing my meditation sometimes.

 

 

AugustGrieg, these are excellent questions and yes, there is a difference between all of the conditions you named:

 

Thought is an intellectual production of the mind and originates from the collective consciousness of the universe. Thought prior to form is energy. So part of learning to control thought, is learning how to direct energy.

 

Intention is the product of Yi, the spirit of the spleen, and what one intends to beyond the intellect. At its lowest form of consciousness it is the psyche and its desires, but at the level of spirit, it is the conscious concentration of energetic movements into a specified form.

 

Observation is the process of witness, which at its lowest form is intellectual-sensory cognition, but in higher meditative conditions is the process of awareness which is beyond self.

 

Awareness at the mundane level is intellectual consciousness. As intellect dissolves and the system becomes an unobstructed vessel for transmission, then awareness becomes the action of one’s own shen or spirit; then as shen returns to its origin, awareness becomes the state of witness from the Yuan Shen or Original spirit. And finally, when one’s Original Spirit unites with Source, then it is your enlightened consciousness as the Unnamable Tao that bears witness to all.

 

 

As to your question about whether your experience is part of a natural progression- yes, often it is. But coming into total quietude is not necessarily the same as being conscious in true silence. To  come into the depth of silence where wisdom and consciousness resides, requires awareness, not just stillness. There is a difference between falling into a void and actually consciously entering through the passage that resides in the dark stillness of your system. Whether the chatter you experience has to do with supression, versus disassociation, versus a true refinement and discipline of the mind and its energies; depends a lot your method of practice, your ability to ground the whole of your system, and your level of consciousness through all its processes.

 

As for breath, breath is merely a guide into body- albeit a foundational one, but is itself not the consciousness you are seeking, though it contains within it the capacity to refine your system to more subtle levels of awareness and does also contain within it a form of awareness itself. Breath then, is a form of shen (-and I am so glad that you had that beautiful experience of health and consciousness through the shen of your breath!).

 

There are methods of meditation and self-cultivation that provide direct access to such profound awareness completely free of the residual murmurs you are experiencing in your system. If you should ever have sincere interest in such meditative cultivation, you are welcome to consider sessions with together with me. In session, I can help you clarify various forms of instruction you have received such as “how to meditate without thinking” and to go beyond the pondering into silent witness and experience. While there are some common generic answers to these kinds of questions, in session I can help you discern and recognize what are your unique patterns and habits that prevent you from recognizing complete stillness; teach you how to ground not only the body but root the mind and anchor the spirit; as well as how to further refine and hone your system for more advance forms of meditative cultivation and wisdom. 

 

My best to you and thank you for the dedication you have given to meditation, which is not only a path towards greater health and wisdom for yourself but ultimately a gift to all.

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Small Fur

[AugustGreig]

1 hour ago, Small Fur said:

 

 

 

 

AugustGrieg, these are excellent questions and yes, there is a difference between all of the conditions you named:

 

Thought is an intellectual production of the mind and originates from the collective consciousness of the universe. Thought prior to form is energy. So part of learning to control thought, is learning how to direct energy.

 

Intention is the product of Yi, the spirit of the spleen, and what one intends to beyond the intellect. At its lowest form of consciousness it is the psyche and its desires, but at the level of spirit, it is the conscious concentration of energetic movements into a specified form.

 

Observation is the process of witness, which at its lowest form is intellectual-sensory cognition, but in higher meditative conditions is the process of awareness which is beyond self.

 

Awareness at the mundane level is intellectual consciousness. As intellect dissolves and the system becomes an unobstructed vessel for transmission, then awareness becomes the action of one’s own shen or spirit; then as shen returns to its origin, awareness becomes the state of witness from the Yuan Shen or Original spirit. And finally, when one’s Original Spirit unites with Source, then it is your enlightened consciousness as the Unnamable Tao that bears witness to all.

 

 

As to your question about whether your is experience is part of a natural progression- yes, often it is. But coming into total quietude is not necessarily the same as being conscious in true silence. To  come into the depth of silence where wisdom and consciousness resides, requires awareness, not just stillness. There is a difference between falling into a void and actually consciously entering through the passage that resides in the dark stillness of your system. Whether the chatter you experience has to do with supression, versus disassociation, versus a true refinement and discipline of the mind and its energies; depends a lot your method of practice, your ability to grounded the whole of your system, and your level of consciousness through all its processes.

 

As for breath, breath is merely a guide into body- albeit a foundational one, but is itself not the consciousness you are seeking, though it contains within it the capacity to refine your system to more subtle levels of awareness and does also contain within it a form of awareness itself. Breath then, is a form of shen (-and I am so glad that you had that beautiful experience of health and consciousness through the shen of your breath!).

 

There are methods of meditation and self-cultivation that provide direct access to such profound awareness completely free of the residual murmurs you are experiencing in your system. If you should ever have sincere interest in such meditative cultivation, you are welcome to consider sessions with together with me. In session, I can help you clarify various forms of instruction you have received such as “how to meditate without thinking” and to go beyond the pondering into silent witness and experience. While there are some common generic answers to these kinds of questions, in session I can help you discern and recognize what are your unique patterns and habits that prevent you from recognizing complete stillness; teach you how to ground not only the body but root the mind and anchor the spirit; as well as how to further refine and hone your system for more advance forms of meditative cultivation and wisdom. 

 

My best to you and thank you for the dedication you have given to meditation, which is not only a path towards greater health and wisdom for yourself but ultimately a gift to all.

 

Yes, I am interested in having a teacher. I consider it of Paramount importance. That's why I joined this community, because I think a community of like minded seekers is just as important. How do we proceed? Also, I read your other post on turning the light around and liked what you said about descriptions of phenomena turning into obstacles. I also liked what you said here about the breath. At first it helped, but now taking the advice on just focusing on the natural breath is holding back, because something happens at a certain point where I follow the breath until it takes me somewhere else... It's very hard to put into words, but it is like I'm in my head, but also outside of it a few inches, and also I can feel my entire body at once, buzzing and tingling, and sometimes I hear almost like a silent hum, and sounds such as crickets seem bright and clear and almost indistinguishable from myself. That's when I sometimes hear chatter, often it's not even my voice, it's not my normal inner voice, it's something else and sounds far away. But then I'll be like, "oh, I'm supposed to be focusing on the breath". But it feels more natural to just focus and let go completely an just be absorbed.

 

Anyway, yes I want a teacher. Tell me how to proceed please and thank you for you very much. 

[beingnature]

Imagine you are mountain , the thoughts are clouds that touch the mountain peak. The mountain doesnt say oh nice a white cloud or no a dark cloud.... just observe and try to stay neutral. The space in between the clouds will become bigger and bigger and then its the time to observe this space in between... its all a process so allow yourself to take your time.

 

I would also say dont only observe only the mind that way... also your breathing , emotions and bodily sensations and also allow the gravity to correct your body structure through relaxation.

Edited September 27, 2018 by NATURE BEEING