Is there a difference between thought, intention and observation and awareness in meditation?

[Jonesboy]

One point on Obsevering thoughts.

 

I really liked the analogy of the mountain and the clouds. The Tibetans will often say be like the sky.

 

With meditation and mindfulness the point is to get to the point of being able to observe your thoughts. Once you get to that point what one should notice is now at a deeper level the observing of the thought is a thought itself. Your mind focuses on the creation of a new thought.

 

The sky doesn’t focus on the clouds passing by. The mountain cares not about the clouds around it.

 

Try to get to the point where you are like the sky with thoughts. Let go of noticing the creation of thoughts, that your attention is drawn to one as it is passing by.

 

Just be like the Sky.

 

 

[Marblehead]

So I'm to be like the mountain?

 

[Jonesboy]

22 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

So I'm to be like the mountain?

 

 

You are already a mountain of a man to me Marblehead

 

 

[AugustGreig]

5 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

One point on Obsevering thoughts.

 

I really liked the analogy of the mountain and the clouds. The Tibetans will often say be like the sky.

 

With meditation and mindfulness the point is to get to the point of being able to observe your thoughts. Once you get to that point what one should notice is now at a deeper level the observing of the thought is a thought itself. Your mind focuses on the creation of a new thought.

 

The sky doesn’t focus on the clouds passing by. The mountain cares not about the clouds around it.

 

Try to get to the point where you are like the sky with thoughts. Let go of noticing the creation of thoughts, that your attention is drawn to one as it is passing by.

 

Just be like the Sky.

 

 

Is this what happens after say 20-30 minutes, when breathing is deep and natural and my mind moves from LDT back up to my head-sort-of, and I can still hear thoughts, but almost in the distance and I don't always notice what they say?

[Jonesboy]

6 hours ago, AugustGreig said:

Is this what happens after say 20-30 minutes, when breathing is deep and natural and my mind moves from LDT back up to my head-sort-of, and I can still hear thoughts, but almost in the distance and I don't always notice what they say?

 

What I am trying to point out in your example is notice that the mind is noticing the thoughts. That the mind is now distracted with hearing the thoughts.

 

We all notice when meditating that we are focusing let's say on the breath and the next thing we know we are aware that we are lost in some day dream or lost in some thoughts right?

 

Once we go deeper in silence we are able to observe lets say our thoughts or even your example you notice there is some activity in the mind. Yet, there is still this mind that is drawn to the activity of whatever is arising in the mind. It pays attention to that activity, the mind is drawn to it.

 

What is drawn to that activity that is arising?

 

When we start meditation it is easy to notice that it is hard to keep the mind focused on the breath for instance. We are on focusing on the breath, get lost in thoughts, notice it and return back to the breath. The same thing is happening when one is in silence but the mind is being drawn to some activity that is arising. Just like with breath meditation you have no control of the mind focusing on that activity. It is a deeper thought that you are getting lost in. You may be at a level of silence but the mind then takes over to notice the activity that is arising in the silence.

 

The next step is to get to the stage where whatever arises within the silence, it arises without you having any focus of it. It arises and passes through without the mind going there is a thought, there is a sound, there is a vision or some activity. You are pure awareness without attaching to whatever arises in the mind. 

Edited September 28, 2018 by Jonesboy

[joeblast]

For some reason, I'm reminded of that time I was in 3rd grade and another 3rd grader was explaining a woman's vagina to me   No offense to anyone intended.

[AugustGreig]

8 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

What I am trying to point out in your example is notice that the mind is noticing the thoughts. That the mind is now distracted with hearing the thoughts.

 

We all notice when meditating that we are focusing let's say on the breath and the next thing we know we are aware that we are lost in some day dream or lost in some thoughts right?

 

Once we go deeper in silence we are able to observe lets say our thoughts or even your example you notice there is some activity in the mind. Yet, there is still this mind that is drawn to the activity of whatever is arising in the mind. It pays attention to that activity, the mind is drawn to it.

 

What is drawn to that activity that is arising?

 

When we start meditation it is easy to notice that it is hard to keep the mind focused on the breath for instance. We are on focusing on the breath, get lost in thoughts, notice it and return back to the breath. The same thing is happening when one is in silence but the mind is being drawn to some activity that is arising. Just like with breath meditation you have no control of the mind focusing on that activity. It is a deeper thought that you are getting lost in. You may be at a level of silence but the mind then takes over to notice the activity that is arising in the silence.

 

The next step is to get to the stage where whatever arises within the silence, it arises without you having any focus of it. It arises and passes through without the mind going there is a thought, there is a sound, there is a vision or some activity. You are pure awareness without attaching to whatever arises in the mind. 

I very rarely get distracted from the breath. TBH, I understand what you're saying about looking for the observer, but I also find the more questions I ask, everyone tells me I'm doing it wrong, everyone gives me conflicting suggestions. Focus on the breath, don't focus on the breath, count, don't count, notice the sounds around you, don't notice anything... I'm going to stop asking for any advice or bother trying to do anything at all.  Thanks. I give up.

[Jonesboy]

52 minutes ago, AugustGreig said:

I very rarely get distracted from the breath. TBH, I understand what you're saying about looking for the observer, but I also find the more questions I ask, everyone tells me I'm doing it wrong, everyone gives me conflicting suggestions. Focus on the breath, don't focus on the breath, count, don't count, notice the sounds around you, don't notice anything... I'm going to stop asking for any advice or bother trying to do anything at all.  Thanks. I give up.

 

Please forgive me. I jumped in at the end and didn’t read the entire thread.

 

I understand your frustration with all the different and often conflicting advice. There are so many different teachings and means of meditation.

 

It does sound like you are making excellent progress. Keep doing what you are doing and please don’t give up.

 

A suggestion, maybe just reach out to someone in PM whom you have felt has an understanding of what you are doing and you feel knows what they are talking about.

 

Again I am sorry if I have added to your frustration.

Edited September 28, 2018 by Jonesboy

[Walker]

鴉鳴鵲噪、咸自天機。蟻聚蜂遊、都歸神理。是則何語非禪、何法非道？

The quacking of ducks and the squawking of magpies, it all comes from the celestial mechanism.

The gathering of ants and the journeying of bees, it all goes back to the spiritual principles.

Thus, what words aren't Chan?

Which methods aren't Dao?

[AugustGreig]

22 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Please forgive me. I jumped in at the end and didn’t read the entire thread.

 

I understand your frustration with all the different and often conflicting advice. There are so many different teachings and means of meditation.

 

It does sound like you are making excellent progress. Keep doing what you are doing and please don’t give up.

 

A suggestion, maybe just reach out to someone in PM whom you have felt has an understanding of what you are doing and you feel knows what they are talking about.

 

Again I am sorry if I have added to your frustration.

It's no problem. I'm just going to stop asking questions about meditation of the community. It feels like everyone wants to recits poetry or appear that they posses some secret knowledge that can't be communicated. Don't get me wrong, I love poetry, and I understand that we don't really have language to describe these experiences. But I still feel like the more I read the more confused I get. The most useful advice I got here was to breath silently and Neve focus on feeling my breath anywhere that air touches. It's something I'd already gotten to, but now I remember it as a principle.

 

The fault is also my own for not being clear and also wanting to be encouraged in my efforts. But I don't understand. I meditate at least twice a day for 30 minutes each, but I attempt to be meditative all day long. I keep thinking there's something I'm supposed to be doing when I get to a certain point of consciousness, like reverse my breath or contract the perineum and focus on the sacrum and draw energy up the spine and all that shit, but no one can just clearly say," Once A, proceed to B, once B, proceed to C"... I guess it just doesn't work like that. I'm just going to keep doing my thing and stop making so much of an effort. I've just felt the light before and I'd really like to shed my ego. I wish I had a teacher and a community, I had come to the conclusion those were important so I sought this out. But I suppose this is a solitary path.

 

Thanks you, an thanks to everyone. Love you all.

Edited September 29, 2018 by AugustGreig

[Marblehead]

Yes, if your thing is working then keep doing it.

 

Alternative method of meditation:  sit down and shut up.

 

[silent thunder]

i find giving up seeking for more, or striving to achieve through externals full of potential.

 

It's been quite empowering to cease seeking and abide simply, here and now.

[liminal_luke]

On 9/16/2018 at 7:54 AM, Marblehead said:

 I just sit there and keep my mouth shut and allow the brain to rest.

 

 

What are your demands?  How much is the ransom?  Whatever it is we`ll gladly pay because we want Marblehead back and we want him back now.  Please stop this obvious impersonation and bring back the Bum we know and love.

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

 

What are your demands?  How much is the ransom?  Whatever it is we`ll gladly pay because we want Marblehead back and we want him back now.  Please stop this obvious impersonation and bring back the Bum we know and love.

I didn't realize what I said sounded all that mushy.

 

[Walker]

In the not-so-distant past (and in the living memory of some older Chinese and Tibetan Daoists and Buddhists I know), life expectancy was short. To travel distances we hardly notice today required huge investments of time and effort in the face of real danger. It was common in many lands to speak a dialect unintelligible to people just a mountain or two away, greatly limiting the number of teachers one would ever have the chance to learn from. Literacy was a rare luxury, and books hard to come by.

 

It is somewhat paradoxical that in the face of all this inconvenience, cultivators of the past were marked by their patience, whereas impatience is endemic today amid seekers who can very reasonably hope to live into their 80s or beyond. 

 

Imagine: if you read a poem and eat a sandwich at the same time, but you respond to the poem in far less time than it will take for your digestive system to extract the nutrients from your sandwich and shit out the rest, then don't expect your mind to have time to extract any nutrients from that poem before you react to it.

 

I assure you, given that the human mind is capable of pooping on command, it in fact digests surprisingly slowly. 

 

Many years ago when I first lived in Beijing I had tea at Andrew Nugent Head's house. To those of us who'd wandered there that Sunday morning, he rattled off pieces of advice gleaned from his many years on "the path." One memorable thought was this:

 

If you have a teacher, always wait at least seven days before you ask any question you think of. This will give you time to find the answer yourself (as often times you will if you just wait and use your good mind) and it will also give you time to notice if a question is not worth asking (very many are not). 

 

Anyway, your questions and anxieties are pretty typical of beginners. Years, perseverance, circumspection (especially regarding your experiences and goals), and equanimity will gradually put things into perspective. There's probably no other way. 

 

6 hours ago, AugustGreig said:

I'd really like to shed my ego.

 

A problematic statement. Worth contemplating. 

Edited September 30, 2018 by Walker

[Rocky Lionmouth]

@AugustGreig please do not stop asking those questions and disregard any poets and conflicting info for the moment!

To me you sound knowledgeable and on a strong path from the OP and onwards, plus this thread is imho one of the most refreshing ones on the subject. You’re not only parttaking as a person asking for advice, your observations contribute concise info to the community and i do think folks will benefit from this thread.

 

@liminal_luke thank you for hitting the nail on the head!

@Marblehead it’s not like you’re sounding mushy but you AGREED earlier on in a thread, on here, like explicitly. Who are you and where have you stashed Marbs? The game is up, drop the act, you’re surrounded and you will surrender, wether peacefully or not is up to you.

Edited October 1, 2018 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Marblehead]

5 hours ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

@Marblehead it’s not like you’re sounding mushy but you AGREED earlier on in a thread, on here, like explicitly. Who are you and where have you stashed Marbs? The game is up, drop the act, you’re surrounded and you will surrender, wether peacefully or not is up to you.

Hehehe.  It is true.  Back when I was young and in the Army, if I was out of ammunition and I had more than one weapon pointed at me I would surrender.  What other choice would there be?  But I would immediately start thinking of how I could escape.  But I must survive else I cannot complete my mission.

 

What is my mission?  I have no idea.  That's classified.

 

[freeform]

Some good advice, some rather conflicting.

 

Joeblast mentioned about the mechanics of breathing. This is essential, but it’s not meditation. Actually in Daoism meditation is only really happening when you’re completely still and quiet inside. The bar is set high - and that’s what you’re aiming for. You’re aiming for meditation, you’re not doing it (until you are!)

 

You can practice the mechanics of breathing - which is listening to every little nuance of the soft tissues involved in breathing. Not trying to deepen or elongate your breath etc. This is a practice in its own right and it is not zhouwang - it’s breathing practice. Do it separately to meditation.

 

For breathing practice I just listen to the tissues bit by bit, starting at all the tissues in the nose and sinuses, then little by little adding the soft pallete, the throat, upper chest etc. without dropping awareness of the earlier area you were listening to. You eventually let your listening ‘soak through’ the tissues by itself.

 

The other important thing I wanted to mention is Observation vs Listening. In Daoism the classical instruction is to Ting (listen) not observe. And it’s ‘listen’ for a very good reason. When you observe, you ‘look for’. It’s active. Listening is receptive and passive. It also has no borders. It’s also less prone to imagination (compared to observing or feeling) You can’t help but hear the thunder many miles away or the tweeting of the birds outside - this all comes to you, you don’t go looking for it. This is a very important distinction. 

 

In training for meditation, always focus on releasing rather than adding. Seeing is adding (the effort of looking for xxxx) Imagination is adding etc. 

 

Release (Song) + Listen (Ting) = the basis of most of the daoist arts!

[AugustGreig]

20 hours ago, freeform said:

Some good advice, some rather conflicting.

 

Joeblast mentioned about the mechanics of breathing. This is essential, but it’s not meditation. Actually in Daoism meditation is only really happening when you’re completely still and quiet inside. The bar is set high - and that’s what you’re aiming for. You’re aiming for meditation, you’re not doing it (until you are!)

 

You can practice the mechanics of breathing - which is listening to every little nuance of the soft tissues involved in breathing. Not trying to deepen or elongate your breath etc. This is a practice in its own right and it is not zhouwang - it’s breathing practice. Do it separately to meditation.

 

For breathing practice I just listen to the tissues bit by bit, starting at all the tissues in the nose and sinuses, then little by little adding the soft pallete, the throat, upper chest etc. without dropping awareness of the earlier area you were listening to. You eventually let your listening ‘soak through’ the tissues by itself.

 

The other important thing I wanted to mention is Observation vs Listening. In Daoism the classical instruction is to Ting (listen) not observe. And it’s ‘listen’ for a very good reason. When you observe, you ‘look for’. It’s active. Listening is receptive and passive. It also has no borders. It’s also less prone to imagination (compared to observing or feeling) You can’t help but hear the thunder many miles away or the tweeting of the birds outside - this all comes to you, you don’t go looking for it. This is a very important distinction. 

 

In training for meditation, always focus on releasing rather than adding. Seeing is adding (the effort of looking for xxxx) Imagination is adding etc. 

 

Release (Song) + Listen (Ting) = the basis of most of the daoist arts!

Thank you. But this seems to conflict with yet another piece of advice I got, which was to never focus on the breath anywhere the air touches, breath silently and effortlessly, etc. But also that you must breath correctly into your LDT,and that tuning the breath with the body is key to meditation. For me, meditation is a PRACTICE. It is PRACTICE. I have learned a few skills in my life, all self taught, and one is music. I heard someone say once that good practice shouldn't sound good, but if you practice well, you can perform flawlessly, almost effortlessly. To me, this is meditation. So sometimes I meditate for 10-20 minutes, almost like a warm up, before I aim to sit quietly for another 10-40 minutes. Sometimes I go back and forth, just like with my guitar. If I see a posture issue or something, I correct it, practice for a minute, then go back. But ultimately, that is still practice. Practice for what? For the most extreme situations in life, be they success or failure, danger or promise, to be able to face them in a receptive, unattached and accepting way, THE way, maybe.

 

Anyway, I vowed to stop asking questions about meditation here, and so I have. But I thank you. And despite previous advice, I find myself doing as you describe, only backwards. I start with a few deep breaths,clearing the lungs and drawing the LDT all the way up, contracted, including the pelvic floor, then I release and allow air in. I see it as a bellows. So then I expand from my LDT up, and eventually I come to the nose, usually, but if not,to the throat and sinus cavity. It begins to feel as though my whole body is breathing. At that point I generally let go entirely and stop focusing on the breath and sort of just exist for a bit, seeing and listening with my heart, or heart-mind. I've been doing a lot of work paying close attention to my heart, especially as feelings arise, and it would seem that the heart feels before thoughts arise, and that thoughts are a sort of reflection of reality, not reality it's self. More like adornment.

[freeform]

Sounds to me like you’ve got the right attitude to your training. I’m sure you’ll do great.

 

I would certainly not take my post as instruction. The truth is that this sort of practice is passed on with a transmission, which allows the process to unfold along a specific path and passes on specific energetic and mental qualities.

 

There are certainly important qualities to achieve - ‘quiet’ and ‘effortless’ are two of them. Each quality has very specific milestones.

 

You can go very deep with the breath - moving from the manifestation all the way to the root (primordial) aspect. Which is where ‘meditation’ starts.

 

Its a long process and unfortunately really does require a teacher to unfold properly. There’s a lot of subtlety and many errors to be corrected along the way.

 

All the best on your cultivation path.

 

PS - just to clarify ‘listening’ is not focusing. I know it sounds pedantic, but that’s how the internal arts are  This is crucial.

Edited October 19, 2018 by freeform

[AugustGreig]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Sounds to me like you’ve got the right attitude to your training. I’m sure you’ll do great.

 

I would certainly not take my post as instruction. The truth is that this sort of practice is passed on with a transmission, which allows the process to unfold along a specific path and passes on specific energetic and mental qualities.

 

There are certainly important qualities to achieve - ‘quiet’ and ‘effortless’ are two of them. Each quality has very specific milestones.

 

You can go very deep with the breath - moving from the manifestation all the way to the root (primordial) aspect. Which is where ‘meditation’ starts.

 

Its a long process and unfortunately really does require a teacher to unfold properly. There’s a lot of subtlety and many errors to be corrected along the way.

 

All the best on your cultivation path.

 

PS - just to clarify ‘listening’ is not focusing. I know it sounds pedantic, but that’s how the internal arts are  This is crucial.

I understand 'listening'. Eckhart Tolle explains it very well. Listening automatically creates a space in you which will allow...Tao? It will allow integrity. Listening. The trick, for me, seems to be to listen and heat everything, which means also hearing nothing.

 

Why is a teacher so important? This is the part I don't understand. The way is very simple. I thought that community, a teacher and a path were the three most important things when I started this. Now I have no idea. What I do know is asking questions about meditation confused me more. I think because I really wanted to know about Qigong or Nei Dan, but to me, those fall under meditation, but I guess not to others. Many people define meditation as sittings forgetting, but I think it csm he many things. There are many different ways to enter the void. There are also many ways to draw from the void. Tao is inexhaustible.

[OldDog]

On 10/18/2018 at 9:10 AM, freeform said:

The other important thing I wanted to mention is Observation vs Listening.

 

Thanks, freeform. Your description of meditation is about the best I have found. It is very clearly making distinction between breathing and meditation ... and, again between observing and listening.

 

In my meditation the process of releasing has been key. Without paying too much attention to breathing I find that I settle into a very shallow abdominal breathing. Nothing contrived ... no attempt at reverse abdominal breathing or any other "method". My breathing rate slows to probably 2 to 3 breaths a minute. This can only be attained ( but not a goal in and of itself ... probably arrived at is a better description) by being in a stable comfortable posture, releasing as much physical and mental tension as possible. Session quality varies depending on how well the releasing goes.

 

The part about listening is something that you almost never hear anything about. Buddhist meditative practices focus on observing ... at least initially ... but seem to stop there. I first heard the term "listening" in my martial arts training ... from two separate teachers from two separate styles. The usual context is in sensing movement and intent in an opponent ... but both teachers carried the term over to meditative practice.

 

I wonder if you would be willing to talk a little more about "listening".

 

 

Edited October 20, 2018 by OldDog
Spelling

[joeblast]

On 10/18/2018 at 10:10 AM, freeform said:

 

Joeblast mentioned about the mechanics of breathing. This is essential, but it’s not meditation. Actually in Daoism meditation is only really happening when you’re completely still and quiet inside. The bar is set high - and that’s what you’re aiming for. You’re aiming for meditation, you’re not doing it (until you are!)

 

the way I describe things is to rotely attack the neurological dynamic, until it becomes a situation whereby the dynamic is so well ingrained that meditation happens every session, and for a looooong time

 

pedal, coast, pedal, coast

 

neurological efficiency is like making the ground flat, or even ever so slightly downhill

 

I try to avoid saying "muh real meditation" but its absolutely correct   I just figured out a rote mechanics based way to get there, efficiently, and with things well ingrained so that the depth happens every session....once you've been hitting it for a few months straight and you're super trained.    I know it works that way, because I established the dynamic on far too many different chunks of practice-time for myself, its embarrassing to even say how many

Edited October 20, 2018 by joeblast

[AugustGreig]

18 hours ago, joeblast said:

 

pedal, coast, pedal, coast

This I understand this. I'm day 85 of my 100 dedicated twice a day meditation, once a day qigong foundation, And "pedal, coast" harkens back to when I was at day 30 something, the day I came here, and I'd had a "psychedelic" experience that startled or excited me. While I was waiting to get verified here, I went to 4chan of all places and actually got great guidance from an anonymous Qigong student of 25 years. His teacher I think has written books, and he emphasizes "dissolving", from ice to water, water to steam. He told me basically the same thing with a caveat about my posture. He told me I should do whatever I like, but it is important to stay in tune with the breath and the LDT, so to alternate, 5 minutes LDT, 5 minutes 3rd eye, or wherever.

 

I knew I was not ready to pursue these experiences, so I went back to tuning the breath, only rising up there when it happened on it's own. Surrender has been a huge help in my practice. 

 

In my experience,the LDT does seem to be the battery, there does seem to be something that happens in my testicles, perineum , liver, spleen, kidneys and stomach that produces energy. I don't understand it. I do know that if I pedal hard enough in the beginning, I can gently pedal downhill like you said, forsome time. Of course, the roads not always smooth, there are bumps, and sometimes hills, or rather, bumps which might seem like hills after coasting for 10 minutes, and the longer you travel, in my experience,the less motivation I have to pump, or there's an outside duty I must attend, like work. Otherwise, why not stay there forever?

 

And since I found it extremely difficult to have someone tell me how to gauge progress, I will say this. The more objective your thoughts become, that's progress. So from," this is great!" and the realization that that is another way of saying that something else was mundane or not great or even bad, To, "this is warm and new" to, "this is." Also, another way, assuming you are practicing these principles in all of your affairs, is The space between thought and action will grow. And then the space between thoughts will grow. This is the next level of progress. 

 

I'm curious about people's meditation. Taoist meditation obviously uses the energy of the body as the meditation object beyond the breath,and I like this. This is also what Eckhart Tolle recommends, and I believe he has had a permanent spiritual awakening. Even the Buddhists do this with vapassana, correct? Some say that this was a focal point of Gautama's original teaching, but was simplified. And what of mantra meditation? All, I suspect, are routes to the same thing, moments of nonduality, integrity.

 

As I have vowed to no longer seek advice here, I'm not. I am curious about everyone's mehods and experiences. Please use as plain a language as you can, and always keep the newcomer in mind.

[freeform]

On 19/10/2018 at 6:01 PM, OldDog said:

 

I wonder if you would be willing to talk a little more about "listening".

 

Yeah sure. I’ll write a bit more about this and about why you need a teacher (AugustGreig’s question) in a little while.

 

I’m going through an intense week of practice at the moment, but I promise to get back to you on these points as they’re both quite important to discuss!