Mair 19:6

[wandelaar]

It will take some time before I get used to the style of Stosh...

 

But not everything of this text has been discussed yet. Here is an obscure reference to maybe (?) internal alchemy:

 

Quote

There was a scholar of Ch'i named Master Leisurely Ramble who said to him, "Your Highness is harming yourself.  How could a ghost harm you?  If an embolism of vital breath caused by agitation disperses and does not return, what remains will be insufficient; if it rises and does not come back down, it will cause a person to be easily angered; if it descends and does not come back up, it will cause a person to forget easily; if it neither rises nor descends, it will stay in the center of a person's body, clogging his heart, and he will become ill."

 

[Marblehead]

12 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

It will take some time before I get used to the style of Stosh...

Yeah, Stosh is a one of a kind.  I thought I was hard-headed until I met him.

 

 But I have to give him credit for his persistence at keeping at it until his mind is satisfied.

 

[Stosh]

9 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

It will take some time before I get used to the style of Stosh...

 

But not everything of this text has been discussed yet. Here is an obscure reference to maybe (?) internal alchemy:

 

 

Im actually easy , during a bout, its fair to bang heads, then, you shake it off and you go back to normal. 

Yeah it looks like that chi stuff, being  mentioned but i dont see enough spoken to evaluate the weight that such a paradigm held for these guys. 

[Marblehead]

16 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

But not everything of this text has been discussed yet. Here is an obscure reference to maybe (?) internal alchemy:

Valid point.  I don't speak often to these concepts.  Perhaps it isn't fair but I'm not very interested in the Alchemic and Spirituality concepts that appear in the Chuang Tzu.

 

But I do feel it is fair ground for anyone who wishes to discuss those concepts.

 

And yes, it could probably be said that this section does speak to Alchemy.

 

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Yeah it looks like that chi stuff, being  mentioned but i dont see enough spoken to evaluate the weight that such a paradigm held for these guys. 

But then, you and I are not good spoke-persons for such considerations.

 

Flowing Hands would be a great asset for passages such as this.

 

[wandelaar]

Then let's wait for those who know about internal alchemy to give their interpretation of what is said here...

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

But then, you and I are not good spoke-persons for such considerations.

 

Flowing Hands would be a great asset for passages such as this.

 

I know I   am not suited to emphasizing the um alchemical reference.  I would prefer to crush it altogether. So I would be happy to leave it to FH to flesh that out. 

[OldDog]

(Been out of pocket a few days.)

 

Yes, good exchange of ideas. One thing I would add ...

 

I read a couple of alternative translations of this passage. Legge, in footnotes suggests that traditionally ...

 

"... ghostly sprites are [considered] the fruit of disordered mind."

 

So, one minister dismisses the notion out of hand  (Your servant sees nothing) ... perhaps even out of fear of appearing disordered himself ... but somewhat cynically. While another recognizes the disorder and provides an explanation that calms the dukes mind. Interesting politic.

[wandelaar]

@ OldDog

 

Do you know how to interpret the part on internal alchemy?

[OldDog]

19 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

... how to interpret the part on internal alchemy?

 

Not that deep into alchemy ... just a passing interest as part of the broader scope of daoism. So, I too would like to here how the alchemists among us read that.

 

Still ... my delvings have led me understand that a heart-mind that is not calm (ordered?) is subject to being driven by desires and obsessions, whether they be real or imagined (ghosts? ... or more appropriately, what they portend.). Such a state then feeds on itself and ones sense of reality spins out of control. 

 

There is probably a better explanation. I would not impose any sense on altruism on the daoist solution to the duke's problem ... just a sense for practicality.

 

I just found the politic here interesting. After all, the duke appears to be next in succession ... at least according to Legge ... it's not too difficult a leap to find ministers (daoist or legalist)  jockeying for position. 

[wandelaar]

On 16-9-2018 at 2:19 PM, Marblehead said:

After the duke returned he babbled incoherently and became ill, so that he did not go out for several days.  There was a scholar of Ch'i named Master Leisurely Ramble who said to him, "Your Highness is harming yourself.  How could a ghost harm you?  If an embolism of vital breath caused by agitation disperses and does not return, what remains will be insufficient; if it rises and does not come back down, it will cause a person to be easily angered; if it descends and does not come back up, it will cause a person to forget easily; if it neither rises nor descends, it will stay in the center of a person's body, clogging his heart, and he will become ill."

 

Compare to:

 

 

Source:  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221674894_The_'Qi'_that_Got_Lost_in_Translation_Traditional_Chinese_Medicine_Humour_and_Healing

[Marblehead]

Yep.  There are many sections such that internal alchemy is alluded to.  Personally, I do not speak to such things.  But I do feel that they are valid points for discussion.

 

[OldDog]

@wandelaar

 

Good comparison! Suggests I should go back and re-read The Yellow Emperor's Classic.

[wandelaar]

Personally I don't know what to think of TCM. But as far as the interpretation of the Chuang tzu is concerned it helps to know that what Master Leisurely Ramble is saying here might have been said by any Chinese traditional medical doctor.

[OldDog]

47 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

don't know what to think of TCM

 

No doubt here. In since mid-80s.

[wandelaar]

2 minutes ago, OldDog said:

No doubt here. In since mid-80s.

 

Based on personal experience?

[OldDog]

Yep. Saw how effective it was for my wifes back issue. Same year started seeing same acupuncturist/herbalist. Key is to use it in conjuction with reasonably good lifestyle habits ... exercise, qigong, etc.

 

[wandelaar]

Just now, OldDog said:

Yep. Saw how effective it was for my wifes back issue. Same year started seeing same acupuncturist/herbalist. Key is to use it in conjuction with reasonably good lifestyle habits ... exercise, qigong, etc.

 

Congratulations with the results, but as a test that doesn't prove anything. For one thing you combined it with reasonably good lifestyle habits ... exercise, qigong, etc. So what is the cause of what? Further there was no control group. And thus no control for the placebo-effect. Long story short, you cannot know what was tested.

 

Most if not all people who tell me that they know that TCM, homeopathy, astrology, etc. work do so on the basis of personal experiences. They simply don't want to know what it takes to set up a good scientific experiment (see the medical literature for that), because they are happy with the idea that they have finally found something that (in their opinion) works.

 

So I will not start a (probably useless) debate on that.

[Marblehead]

But on the other hand, if it works who cares if one can define and measure all the causes for the positive results.

 

Yes, if you started a debate on that it would be useless.  You know how useless I can be.

 

[wandelaar]

Not to start a debate, but just to find out what you are actually saying: does the experience of OldDog quality as proof that TCM works?

[Marblehead]

4 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Not to start a debate, but just to find out what you are actually saying: does the experience of OldDog quality as proof that TCM works?

That's a fair question.  I doubt enough information could be obtained in order to make a scientific proclamation.

 

However, If a combination of what someone has done in order to correct a problem then I think that none of the processes can be discounted as being non-effective.

 

In a lab conditions can be controlled and measured.  But in the lab half of the patients die.

 

Better to not know for sure and live, I think.

 

Cause and effect sounds simple but it really is very complicated and most of the time we don't even know all the causes for a given event.

 

So sure, OldDog shouldn't start a clinic and promise the same result his wife attained.  But he does have the justification to state that such and such (whatever) worked for his wife.

 

And consider, medical science has been looking for a cure for cancer for, what?, a hundred years and the best they can do is kill people with radiation.  There have been documented cases where a person has cured their own cancer by changes in lifestyle and without any medical assistance.

 

 

[OldDog]

Look, this was not a test. I actually saw results that were significant and substantial ... where multiple visits to multiple MDs not only failed but saw the condition worsen . Enough empirical evidence ... not anecdote or hearsay ... for me to want investigate ... personally. So, I eased into it. Over the years there have been enough issues dealt with ... some where MD advice failed ... that I have been satisfied with the efficacy. Don't need any more convincing ... no scientific study,  no double blind study, no control groups. I'm a believer ... no independent reproducible peer reviewed evidence based proof needed.

 

Just saying.

[Marblehead]

5 minutes ago, OldDog said:

Just saying.

I heard that!

 

[wandelaar]

Thank you! I'm not surprised. No use continuing...

[OldDog]

On 9/22/2018 at 4:26 PM, wandelaar said:

No use continuing...

 

... except to apologize to you and the other Bums for the rant response. I do that every once in a while and always end up wishing I hadn't. You were asking a fair question about the nature of proof and rather than give you a considered response, I cut loose.

 

The handle OldDog is not as much an indication of my age as it is my disposition. The image associated with the handle OldDog is actually a picture of my old dog. Easy enough to get along with most of the time but if something didn't rub him just right he was up on all fours telling you about it. 

 

I do value our exchanges and you insights have been helpful.

 

Kind regards.