Mair 19:6

[wandelaar]

There are simple examples from World War II where telling the truth to the Germans would mean the death of many innocent people.

 

But to get back to the text: there would be a problem when Duke Huan was lead to a more unrealistic point of view than he already had just in order to cure him, but that didn't happen. What did happen was that one sick making unrealistic point of view was replaced by another more healthy optimistic unrealistic point of view. And that is some progress.

[wandelaar]

@ Stosh

 

Still the same! Lots of strong language, but no arguments to speak of.

[Stosh]

21 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

But myths and superstitions don't die easily.  Don't want to rock the boat too much.  It might be we who fall into the water.

 

 

Youre afraid?

[Stosh]

10 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

@ Stosh

 

Still the same! Lots of strong language, but no arguments to speak of.

Since youre dug in trying to justify why you should manipulate and present false narrative.. Im ok with letting you squirm in there to your hearts content. 

[Marblehead]

5 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Youre afraid?

Nope.  I've fallen in the water before.

 

[Stosh]

11 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Nope.  I've fallen in the water before.

 

So what impediment can you claim is enough to dump your integrity? Absolutely anything not swinging your way is enough excuse ?

Clearly there may be a price either way otherwise we would all be angels. Right? 

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, Stosh said:

So what impediment can you claim is enough to dump your integrity? Absolutely anything not swinging your way is enough excuse ?

Clearly there may be a price either way otherwise we would all be angels. Right? 

Got me on a side topic.  Inspired by my statement regarding myths and superstitions.

 

More often than not, when we tell someone their myths and superstitions are not real they will reject the thought and become first defensive and then aggressive.  Making the statement produced negative results because now you have someone pissed off at you.  You haven't caused them to think, you haven't shaken their beliefs.  Only caused them to get pissed off.

 

So Ramble simply repeated the myths, the Duke chose his cure, all ends well - everyone's happy.

 

We don't know if Ramble actually believes in the myths.  His goal was to help the Duke.

 

Can one not fudge a little if they believe it will hold someone in the moment?  If need be, the myths and superstitions can be dealt with later.

 

[Stosh]

People often fudge for the rationale you just gave. But that makes me especially sad.

Its one thing to distort to defeat evil forces arrayed against you. Thats much of war, but when parents and friends decide that they can and in fact SHOULD lie deceive manipulate you... thats bad. 

To accept the ramifications of the facts, such as they really are.. that should be seen as a fair deal. 

[Marblehead]

4 minutes ago, Stosh said:

People often fudge for the rationale you just gave. But that makes me especially sad.

Its one thing to distort to defeat evil forces arrayed against you. Thats much of war, but when parents and friends decide that they can and in fact SHOULD lie deceive manipulate you... thats bad. 

To accept the ramifications of the facts, such as they really are.. that should be seen as a fair deal. 

I never tried to justify what I said above.  I just stated an observation.  People lie to us all the time.

 

We either stop listening to them or we do your best to weed out the BS.

 

Sure it's sad.  What more can I say?

 

[Stosh]

3 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I never tried to justify what I said above.  I just stated an observation.  People lie to us all the time.

 

We either stop listening to them or we do your best to weed out the BS.

 

Sure it's sad.  What more can I say?

 

You can say that its Clearly Taoist virtue to tell the truth without manipulative distortion, as a general rule Whether the truth of the situation is less palatable than the fake story , or not . 

[Marblehead]

3 minutes ago, Stosh said:

You can say that its Clearly Taoist virtue to tell the truth without manipulative distortion, as a general rule Whether the truth of the situation is less palatable than the fake story , or not . 

Well, you just said it and now I am quoting it.  And I do agree, the truth is best, but sometimes keeping the mouth shut will be enough.

 

[Stosh]

5 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Well, you just said it and now I am quoting it.  And I do agree, the truth is best, but sometimes keeping the mouth shut will be enough.

 

 

[Stosh]

Yep , gotta allow for privacy and the self determination. 

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Yep , gotta allow for privacy and the self determination. 

True.  Then too, it will be much better if the Duke realizes on his own that the myths and superstitions re not real.  Self-realization is like having a full tank of gas.

 

[Stosh]

18 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

True.  Then too, it will be much better if the Duke realizes on his own that the myths and superstitions re not real.  Self-realization is like having a full tank of gas.

 

Dunno, maybe he would abort his bid for hegemony ,left to his own fears, theres also the possibility he saw something , but not a ghost. But the idea whether an outcome may end up better if x happens often depends on how far n wide one spreads their attention.

[Marblehead]

7 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Dunno, maybe he would abort his bid for hegemony ,left to his own fears, theres also the possibility he saw something , but not a ghost. But the idea whether an outcome may end up better if x happens often depends on how far n wide one spreads their attention.

Yeah.  I don't think we can make any further assumptions about what who believes.

 

He may have seen something.  But it moved too fast to focus on it so he assumed it was a ghost.

 

 

[Stosh]

30 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah.  I don't think we can make any further assumptions about what who believes.

 

He may have seen something.  But it moved too fast to focus on it so he assumed it was a ghost.

 

 

Agreed , that really only sets up the central issue , whether one should be a chronic and unapologetic liar because of something to do with nazis or whether it just better to briefly tell the truth .;)

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, Stosh said:

Agreed , that really only sets up the central issue , whether one should be a chronic and unapologetic liar because of something to do with nazis or whether it just better to briefly tell the truth .;)

Yeah, well, I have mentioned here before that I want to hear others' truths.  It is then up to me as to how I consider them.

 

It's that little white lie thing.  It's still a lie, isn't it?

 

[wandelaar]

It may even have been a ghost. That's one more reason why Stosh is so dead wrong on this issue. How can we be sure there are no ghosts? It doesn't seem likely from a scientific point of view, but the viewpoints of science may change in time. Nevertheless Stosh writes:

 

Quote

(...) but when parents and friends decide that they can and in fact SHOULD lie deceive manipulate you... thats bad. 

 

Yes! But the text isn't about lying, deceiving, manipulating someone concerning concrete everyday facts, but about the interpretation of supposed paranormal phenomena. That's a different thing. Besides: was Master Ramble a friend or parent of Duke Huan? Nothing in the text says so. It may even be that Master Ramble wasn't in a position to flatly contradict Duke Huan and go home safely. So despite all his talk about "telling the truth" it is Stosh himself that is greatly distorting the picture as presented in the text.

 

Master Ramble did what he could do in the circumstances, and was successful at that. He presented an alternative interpretation of the experience that Duke Huan had, and then:

 

Quote

"May I ask what a bendcrook looks like?" said the duke.

"The bendcrook," said Master Ramble, "is as big around as the hub of a chariot wheel and as long as the shafts.  It wears purple clothes and a red cap.  This is a creature that hates to hear the sound of rumbling chariots.  When it does, it stands up holding its head in its hands.  He who sees it is likely to become hegemon."

Duke Huan erupted in laughter and said, "This was what I saw."  Whereupon he adjusted his clothing and cap and had Master Ramble sit down with him.  Before the day was over, his illness left him without his even being aware of it.

 

So in the story it isn't even clear whether the duke suddenly realised that it all depended on his interpretation what the "ghost" meant, or that he took the new interpretation as his new truth.

 

Between friends one can choose how one would like the other to behave: 1) Always tell the truth as you see it; 2) Help the other to further evolve his own world view; 3) Maybe something else.

 

But the text that this topic is about says nothing at all about what should happen between friends, or parents and children.

 

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by wandelaar

[Stosh]

12 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, well, I have mentioned here before that I want to hear others' truths.  It is then up to me as to how I consider them.

 

It's that little white lie thing.  It's still a lie, isn't it?

 

I personally do not think everyone has their own truth, the truth is that which actually exists, and theres only one of that. Which we can accurately or inaccurately mirror in words.

Any false representation imo is Daoist antivirtue, thats just where they drew the line about exposure.  It counts as an action, an active manipulation for which one becomes responsible for events, as much an interference as actively deciding to commit crime. 

But this segment should still suggest that the behavioral code of being a daoist had variations.  It was not just the formulation of Lao, or Chuang. There was a collective attempt to ...describe what intuitively was a virtuous life. 

And I think it implies that even those who called themselves daoists did not share a monolithic opinion about ghosts gods afterlife and so forth.

[Stosh]

W,

Yeah Kuan isnt labeled as friend, but he did properly do his charge and answered truthfully. At least he isnt an enemy. I presume they are out hunting together , which seems cordial. 

Oh, it says they were, and the duke refers to him as Father. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Stosh

[Stosh]

Ramble sounds concerned about the duke , may have teasingly described kuan as short and fat but a helpful advisor.

None of this sounds nefarious, but while Ramble cajoles the duke to good humor , the advice of Kuan is still recognized as sound.

[Stosh]

Next day....... So did this thread go well, everybody got to tell their angle , present their view , and come away with a degree of comfort that they have the message in hand ? Their bullet points attended ? 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

I think it went very well.  A number of alternate perspectives presented.  And I think that this is important - looking at a concept or a situation from different points of view.  Drinking our coffee so that our cup is not always full.

 

[Stosh]

1 minute ago, Marblehead said:

I think it went very well.  A number of alternate perspectives presented.  And I think that this is important - looking at a concept or a situation from different points of view.  Drinking our coffee so that our cup is not always full.

 

Yeah, and it was nice having the fresh input of W .