Identity-less and purposelessness dilemma.

[doc benway]

On 9/16/2018 at 1:12 PM, Shad282 said:

Hello,

As I have been practicing and working on attachments and identity. I have reached a state where i have dis-identified myself with my inner self, thoughts, past and such inner stories of me.

 

With respect, I disagree.

If this were true, your post would end here...

The rest of the post is thoughts, ruminations of the inner self, stories of "me"... just stories of a different sort.

 

When we truly dis-identify with the self, there is spaciousness and infinite possibility, not a me looking to identify with others' perceptions and expectations, not a me feeling sad and purposeless. There is openness and warmth and limitless energy.

 

 

On 9/16/2018 at 1:12 PM, Shad282 said:

but now i m stuck with deriving a sense of self and identity from other people, as how people perceive me.

I used to be more of an introverted person, but now i m more of an extroverted person, as the need to have an identity is itching and needed from outside Because i need a kind of purpose or a reason to move and live life.

 

I m not taking the choice to release the identity yet, because in process of doing that, i started being sad, and feeling purposeless. Less motivate to live and no passion to life. I have nothing to live for or something to exist for which makes me feel useless and why i exist?

 

Any help or suggestion is appreciated.

 

[CityHermit!]

10 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

 

We are wise strangers though! Sometimes anonymity is nice

It's not about wisdom, but intent and purpose and overall paths. Speaking from a lot of experience and close observations, those latter things shouldn't be dictated by or entrusted with those who aren't sharing in it lest severe problems and conflicts result. This is one reason, though not nearly the only one, why I take Wu Wei very seriously. Interfering in another's life, even with the best of intentions, can yield catastrophe if there is a lack of alignment in overall paths.

 

OP, the only thing I will give you is this: Unless these are people you intend to keep in your life for a more developed purpose, don't listen to any of them. I have no intention to be in your life nor have you in mine, so don't pay attention to me either. I go my way and you go yours. That's it.

[Fa Xin]

29 minutes ago, CityHermit! said:

It's not about wisdom, but intent and purpose and overall paths. Speaking from a lot of experience and close observations, those latter things shouldn't be dictated by or entrusted with those who aren't sharing in it lest severe problems and conflicts result. This is one reason, though not nearly the only one, why I take Wu Wei very seriously. Interfering in another's life, even with the best of intentions, can yield catastrophe if there is a lack of alignment in overall paths.

 

OP, the only thing I will give you is this: Unless these are people you intend to keep in your life for a more developed purpose, don't listen to any of them. I have no intention to be in your life nor have you in mine, so don't pay attention to me either. I go my way and you go yours. That's it.

Why even be on the forums? Or interact with anyone ever, except your own clan? Growth doesn’t happen that way. 

 

My view is we are all interconnected with one another, no matter how much we distance ourselves from other people. We are all part and parcel of a greater thing. 

 

Some of the best advice I’ve gotten is from people who were passing saints in my life; placed at the right time or place to say the right thing and then vanish into the wind.

 

Different strokes for different folks. 

[liminal_luke]

15 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

My view is we are all interconnected with one another, no matter how much we distance ourselves from other people. We are all part and parcel of a greater thing. 

 

 

Beautifully said.

[CityHermit!]

28 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

Why even be on the forums? Or interact with anyone ever, except your own clan? Growth doesn’t happen that way. 

 

My view is we are all interconnected with one another, no matter how much we distance ourselves from other people. We are all part and parcel of a greater thing. 

 

Some of the best advice I’ve gotten is from people who were passing saints in my life; placed at the right time or place to say the right thing and then vanish into the wind.

 

Different strokes for different folks. 

It's funny you say that, I hardly use the internet for interaction in general, let alone forums. I don't use social media either. My personal connections are just that, personal and face to face. In other words, something very natural. Someone can have 10,000 social media friends, are they going to get to know real well each and every one?

 

Do you believe you're the first person to say those things to me about interconnection? Are you going to say you and I are more interconnected than our loved ones in our personal life? Or that those who are strangers to us are more interconnected to us than they are with their own loved ones who are also strangers to us? The last person who tried to argue with me about this, in the exact same manner you are saying now, took some very bad turns in life because they didn't understand the importance of sticking with what, or who, is most important. I would have been better off never knowing them and hopefully they stopped being pulled apart in all directions trying to be so interconnected with others when they couldn't manage their connections with each of them, when those same people couldn't be compatible with one another. You can't please everyone.

 

A passing saint isn't your friend, your family, your lover or life partner. Sometimes other people stand in the way between you and those who matter to you most. Sometimes you have to pick and choose even between those strongest connections if circumstances force it. Sometimes being part and parcel of a greater thing is sticking with who really matters to you and vice versa, so that by part it represents the same thing in the whole, just as an individual family is one representation of the principle of family yet if they did not stay intact in their unit they would not represent it. Which goes to show that some things, and people, are not interchangeable.

 

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by CityHermit!
typo

[liminal_luke]

City Hermit,

 

I`m a big advocate for in-person interaction too.  In fact, I suggested that Shad find a real live human being to talk to.  There`s really no substitute.  Still, my life has been changed in so many positive ways because I`ve been open (well, somewhat open) to interacting with people on this forum.  There are folks here who have been working on themselves in deep ways for years and I simply couldn`t find the same quality of insight, wisdom, and presence locally.  Their example has sometimes inspired me to reach for my best self.  (And sometimes they`ve helped me realize that I don`t need to reach quite so much.  But that`s another story.)

 

Of course there`s been plenty of bummer interactions along the way too.  A few people don`t like me, much to my chagrin.  Some even suggest that I should use these uncomfortable moments as a kind of spiritual food for my continued growth.  Yeah, right.  I don`t understand it either.  Still, it`s usually pretty easy to separate what`s useful from what`s not.  

 

If you`re the kind of person who sees social media as an obstacle and prefers only "real" human interaction then you should absolutely follow that path.  Some of us however have found friendship, support, and a spiritual companionship here.  To me that`s valuable. 

[CityHermit!]

8 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

City Hermit,

 

I`m a big advocate for in-person interaction too.  In fact, I suggested that Shad find a real live human being to talk to.  There`s really no substitute.  Still, my life has been changed in so many positive ways because I`ve been open (well, somewhat open) to interacting with people on this forum.  There are folks here who have been working on themselves in deep ways for years and I simply couldn`t find the same quality of insight, wisdom, and presence locally.  Their example has sometimes inspired me to reach for my best self.  (And sometimes they`ve helped me realize that I don`t need to reach quite so much.  But that`s another story.)

 

Of course there`s been plenty of bummer interactions along the way too.  A few people don`t like me, much to my chagrin.  Some even suggest that I should use these uncomfortable moments as a kind of spiritual food for my continued growth.  Yeah, right.  I don`t understand it either.  Still, it`s usually pretty easy to separate what`s useful from what`s not.  

 

If you`re the kind of person who sees social media as an obstacle and prefers only "real" human interaction then you should absolutely follow that path.  Some of us however have found friendship, support, and a spiritual companionship here.  To me that`s valuable. 

Sorry, I'm in the middle of something with my significant other and don't have much time to give a thorough response. Plus I am sitting with my dog who is elderly and dying, who was given a expectation to live a week or two at most 3 months ago and I've been trying to make the best of it since. I guess I'm more interconnected with them than you and others here. That's choices of company for you.

[Fa Xin]

37 minutes ago, CityHermit! said:

It's funny you say that, I hardly use the internet for interaction in general, let alone forums. I don't use social media either. My personal connections are just that, personal and face to face. In other words, something very natural. Someone can have 10,000 social media friends, are they going to get to know real well each and every one?

 

Do you believe you're the first person to say those things to me about interconnection? Are you going to say you and I are more interconnected than our loved ones in our personal life? Or that those who are strangers to us are more interconnected to us than they are with their own loved ones who are also strangers to us? The last person who tried to argue with me about this, in the exact same manner you are saying now, took some very bad turns in life because they didn't understand the importance of sticking with what, or who, is most important. I would have been better off never knowing them and hopefully they stopped being pulled apart in all directions trying to be so interconnected with others when they couldn't manage their connections with each of them, when those same people couldn't be compatible with one another. You can't please everyone.

 

A passing saint isn't your friend, your family, your lover or life partner. Sometimes other people stand in the way between you and those who matter to you most. Sometimes you have to pick and choose even between those strongest connections if circumstances force it. Sometimes being part and parcel of a greater thing is sticking with who really matters to you and vice versa, so that by part it represents the same thing in the whole, just as an individual family is one representation of the principle of family yet if they did not stay intact in their unit they would not represent it. Which goes to show that some things, and people, are not interchangeable.

 

 

I see it a little differently, but I understand where your coming from. It’s natural to close off in order to protect what we think is important. I wish you the best of luck. 

[CityHermit!]

1 minute ago, Fa Xin said:

I see it a little differently, but I understand where your coming from. It’s natural to close off in order to protect what we think is important. I wish you the best of luck. 

It's not even a matter of closing or opening, and for you to say as such shows you don't know where I am coming from. I got into the whole "interconnected" oneness theory myself many years ago, before I really studied anything and when I was too young to know better. Life taught me that theory was wrong. Why not use empirical experience and observation to test those theories for yourself?

 

I'm not trying to hijack the thread, so why keep pressing? I made a simple response to OP, said that was all I have and that I would be on my way and let them be on theirs. Why are you so troubled with doing the same thing? Is it something about me saying not to listen to you? Let them make up their own mind, I did say to them to not even pay attention to me didn't I?

[CityHermit!]

20 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

City Hermit,

 

I`m a big advocate for in-person interaction too.  In fact, I suggested that Shad find a real live human being to talk to.  There`s really no substitute.  Still, my life has been changed in so many positive ways because I`ve been open (well, somewhat open) to interacting with people on this forum.  There are folks here who have been working on themselves in deep ways for years and I simply couldn`t find the same quality of insight, wisdom, and presence locally.  Their example has sometimes inspired me to reach for my best self.  (And sometimes they`ve helped me realize that I don`t need to reach quite so much.  But that`s another story.)

 

Of course there`s been plenty of bummer interactions along the way too.  A few people don`t like me, much to my chagrin.  Some even suggest that I should use these uncomfortable moments as a kind of spiritual food for my continued growth.  Yeah, right.  I don`t understand it either.  Still, it`s usually pretty easy to separate what`s useful from what`s not.  

 

If you`re the kind of person who sees social media as an obstacle and prefers only "real" human interaction then you should absolutely follow that path.  Some of us however have found friendship, support, and a spiritual companionship here.  To me that`s valuable. 

 

9 minutes ago, CityHermit! said:

Sorry, I'm in the middle of something with my significant other and don't have much time to give a thorough response. Plus I am sitting with my dog who is elderly and dying, who was given a expectation to live a week or two at most 3 months ago and I've been trying to make the best of it since. I guess I'm more interconnected with them than you and others here. That's choices of company for you.

Ok, I got another free moment. Person I mentioned in earlier post who argued the same point also said the same exact same thing regarding the forum interaction, only it was a different forum. I see nothing new. There goes my free moment now, duty calls.

[Fa Xin]

26 minutes ago, CityHermit! said:

Sorry, I'm in the middle of something with my significant other and don't have much time to give a thorough response. Plus I am sitting with my dog who is elderly and dying, who was given a expectation to live a week or two at most 3 months ago and I've been trying to make the best of it since. I guess I'm more interconnected with them than you and others here. That's choices of company for you.

Prayers for your puppy... I hope he/she lives many more fun days with you guys.

[CityHermit!]

Just now, Fa Xin said:

Prayers for your puppy... I hope he/she lives many more fun days with you guys.

I'm sure they'd thank you if they could. But do you notice that you're dragging this out, and trying to make a point about positivity in what can be construed as superficial, face saving even, speech perhaps? There's a reason why I didn't "wish best of luck" to OP, nor did I wish anything bad. Letting be is a thing.

[dosa]

You need time to work for others.

 

[CityHermit!]

6 minutes ago, dosa said:

You need time to work for others.

 

Exactly. One only has so much.

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Consider the Dalai Lama.  He`s the spiritual leader of an approach that favors letting go of attachments, and yet by all accounts he doesn`t appear to be lacking a sense of identity or purpose.  Maybe he`s just not very good at meditation?  Paradoxically, I believe that letting go of attachments ultimately strengthens identity and purpose, not the other way around.  Our language lacks an easy way to describe what happens, how a felt sense of a solid self can coexist so harmoniously with selflessness.  

 

It`s also true that the spiritual path is rarely a straight slog up the mountain.  There are usually switchbacks galore and sometimes you have to go down to go up.  So how to know if one is simply facing a difficult but ultimately productive dark-night-of-the-soul experience...or has stepped off the path altogether?  Perhaps this is where having a teacher could be helpful. 

 

Yes!

 

I mean, even if one got to the level of   a Bodhisattva  one  'comes back to help others'   , that is a reason and purpose , and further - one would need to define and work in a specific field , a refined and particular purpose to make that help tangible  - which should be suited to your unique and individual 'spirit'  ( 'nature' ) . 

[wstein]

On 9/16/2018 at 12:12 PM, Shad282 said:

I m not taking the choice to release the identity yet, because in process of doing that, i started being sad, and feeling purposeless. Less motivate to live and no passion to life. I have nothing to live for or something to exist for which makes me feel useless and why i exist?

 

Some things help with this:

1. Your personality is not the same as your identity. There are some warnings about disassociating with your identity, I do not see that as problematic. Disassociating with 'self' (personality, inner nature) can be problematic. The key here is to accept that which you are and release that which you merely think of as yourself.

 

2. Get to know your inner self, what is your nature, what are you attuned to, there is no need to 'seek' the things one is attuned to

 

3. Presence, allow your inner being to fill your body, there are meditations for this, just be

 

The combination of 2 + 3 will lead to action happening spontaneously when circumstance aligns in a way that resonates with your personality. Action does NOT spring from from motivation nor the decision to act.

 

[Nungali]

... and finding out what your  REAL individual spirit , purpose  ... even  ' mission in life' , or  reason for incarnating is.  Appreciating one's own unique individual spirit , and what it can potentially offer  is essential  for   ...  'enlightened existence'   ( for the self and collective : ones field of operation with certain others )  .

 

It is a  key principle  part of   the essential human nature .   

 

The Zoroastrians saw it as ;

 

Khvarenah

• The khvarenah is the archetype of the person one can grow to if allowed to grow to the limit of her or his capacity in grace, that is, in keeping with the fravashi and thereby in keeping with Divine purpose.
• The khvarenah is also a person's higher calling - their meaning in life,  own-work or own-purpose
• Every human being is endowed with natural talents that can be harnessed and developed to achieve one's highest potential or one's higher calling [sometimes thought of as one's latent destiny in life].
• The khvarenah is specific to a person and is different for each person.
• When all human beings realize their calling or full potential in grace, the world will attain vahishtem anghuim & frasho-kereti - the ultimate and ideal future existence, a heaven on earth.
• Human beings often limit or loose themselves. In either case, they do not achieve their full potential or capacity.
• While to some extent, a person's lot in life is determined by birth and circumstance, a person can find her or his latent khvarenah or calling by envisioning the person one aspires to become in grace, and then taking steps to realize the khvarenah despite daunting obstacles and adversity.
• To loose oneself is to loose one's khvarenah.

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by Nungali

[CityHermit!]

22 hours ago, Marblehead said:

That's why I said as little as I could while expressing my intuitional response.

 

I know right? And I thought about not saying anything, but I spontaneously just throw out one sentence and before I know it I'm getting sucked into something I have nothing to do with to begin with. This reminds me of those lightseeker threads where people are getting drawn in and start making elaborate positions and at times against one another, it's like a subtle but clever form of trolling. I took great care not to get into those threads. Now I try a little spontaneity and look what happens. I should have just went on my way without a word and not looked back. That's what I get for not going with my intuition and not abiding by Wu Wei.

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, CityHermit! said:

And I thought about not saying anything,

But then, perhaps something we say will flip a switch for someone that will help them along their path.

 

The important thing, I think, is that we do not let what we say become attached to us.  That is, say what we have to say and let it go.  If another responds then we reply as best we can.

 

If we can't support what we have said then that should be a wake-up call for us to rethink what we have said.

 

And even if we were mistaken in our understanding it will give us an opportunity to further our understanding of that whatever concept.

 

 

[Spotless]

On 9/16/2018 at 10:12 AM, Shad282 said:

Hello,

As I have been practicing and working on attachments and identity. I have reached a state where i have dis-identified myself with my inner self, thoughts, past and such inner stories of me. but now i m stuck with deriving a sense of self and identity from other people, as how people perceive me.

I used to be more of an introverted person, but now i m more of an extroverted person, as the need to have an identity is itching and needed from outside Because i need a kind of purpose or a reason to move and live life.

 

I m not taking the choice to release the identity yet, because in process of doing that, i started being sad, and feeling purposeless. Less motivate to live and no passion to life. I have nothing to live for or something to exist for which makes me feel useless and why i exist?

 

Any help or suggestion is appreciated.

You have described the experience of many who have awoken - for many it is extremely disorienting - for many the loss of motivation / non-positioned self has them looking again elsewhere not long afterward. It is an extremely delicate time and one in which others that have not experienced the transition and abidance in it cannot relate to. 

 

It is not at all uncommn to Awaken and be in depression soon afterward. It is common to have some difficulty in having lost the trance of personhood while within a whirlwind of personhood from the outside. The grab handles of position no longer triangulate your projections and you are abiding in a refrain for some time of grabbing onto them - but in the interim - it can be like falling into a bottomless pit.

 

Know that if there is no bottom you do not need to fear hitting it.

Know that you are floating - and youness is not necessary - give yourself more time to simply be with this.

 

It is more common than not that in the West and much of the whole world - the outside response to Awakening is - "you are depressed, would you like a sedative".

 

I would suggest that you go to Batgap.com and begin listening to the treasure trove of over 400 interviews with people that have Awakened and gone on to abide in the Awakening / Enlightening state. Some of the interviews are with interesting people that have not awoken but by far the bulk are with those that tell of what happened just before, during and in the following weeks, months and years. 

 

People are generally agast at the idea of losing personhood - and so the more palatable words such as "ignorance" suffice to make what every single sage has always bluntly said somewhere less noticeable - that the you who seeks is not the You that shall find.

 

Those on the outside of this will entice you to rejoin the trance dance - and rebuild a personhood - they are billable and are "going somewhere".  You may notice depression - a residual pattern of resonance - but also notice the lightness in arising and the lightness even in the lack of "doing".

 

Abide in the lightness and make your way in self - it comes to you and runs through you and is all light - it is not unbearable except to personhood. This buzzless state needs no concoction - but a practice can be of immeasurable help in letting go of residual held patterns that you are discovering and have told us of.

 

It is said by many masters that even though they might easily touch a student and bring them to "Enlightenment" (Awakening) - doing so is no favor unless they are very much ready - and few to none are ready for if they were the masters touch would not be needed.

 

We speak endlessly of work on ourselves to remove and release habits and grasped positions - and this is seemingly endless.

Work also to abide in stillness and non-doing. A sort of doing will arise when it does. There is no need to become anxious.

 

All the very best

 

 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by Spotless

[Trunk]

On 9/16/2018 at 10:12 AM, Shad282 said:

Hello,

As I have been practicing and working on attachments and identity. I have reached a state where i have dis-identified myself with my inner self, thoughts, past and such inner stories of me.

...

i need a kind of purpose or a reason to move and live life.

 

Curious I was just journaling about something similar, maybe this is the territory that you’re referring to?

 

I’m looking at it in terms of the “forward” path (manifesting: expressing yourself in life, being active, expression of will in the world) and the “reverse” path (unmanifesting: merging into the One medicine, emptiness, surrendering the self to the Self).  Once you start merging into emptiness (at least on an occasional basis) and the little self goes *poof!*, what do you do? ... since there is no “you”?

 

I don’t know that I have the answers to all of that, but here are some thoughts...

 

1. “Knowing the white, keep the black”, Taoist saying (from one of Cleary’s books, I forget which).

2. Just going back to basic humanity, basic tasks, survival, art.

3. Be of service.  Be useful.  As this gets worse you need something to anchor you into the world and being of use, being of service, is a classic way to keep yourself engaged while cultivating selflessness.

4. Anchor the emptiness states into the deep-centers of the chakras.  Often aspirants access emptiness without anchoring it into their esoteric physiology and so there’s this disconnect.  Pearl meditations, bindu meditations are relevant.

5. Respect your humanness.  There are some things that are just built in.  We tend to idealize the emptiness states as the permanent solution and the roadside is littered with tons of students (and teachers) who could access mystical states but neglected / ignored / dismissed their aspects of humanness.

6. “Build a life that works for you”.  This was a repeated line from Mark Griffin (a meditation teacher).  If you build an exterior life that suits your talents, etc, and engages you appropriately in life ... the whole esoteric process will go easier for you, less wear n’ tear, smoother.

 

Any of that in the right territory?

Hope this helps.  Thanks for posting, interesting topic.

- Keith

JohnDaoProductions.wordpress.com

 

[ilumairen]

12 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

I see it a little differently, but I understand where your coming from. It’s natural to close off in order to protect what we think is important. I wish you the best of luck. 

 

I actually agree with CityHermit! here. And feel it's... (sorry looking for a word, and all that's coming to mind is 'spiritual pomposity') to assume another is closing off when they choose to focus on the physical life they are living more than interactions on internet forums. 

[CityHermit!]

5 hours ago, Marblehead said:

But then, perhaps something we say will flip a switch for someone that will help them along their path.

 

The important thing, I think, is that we do not let what we say become attached to us.  That is, say what we have to say and let it go.  If another responds then we reply as best we can.

 

If we can't support what we have said then that should be a wake-up call for us to rethink what we have said.

 

And even if we were mistaken in our understanding it will give us an opportunity to further our understanding of that whatever concept.

 

 

That is true, but it's good to be careful because sometimes that backfires. It's happened to me before, even when I had good intentions I realized later it would have been better if I said nothing, didn't get involved, etc. It's an important judgement call.

[Jeff]

18 hours ago, Shad282 said:

No, i always try not to, when i help them i ll be like talking to myself and it feels like i m helping my own self.

 

Actually when i help people, i reach a mind state of peace and stillness and speak out of it. Words start to come out from awareness without prior thinking, so it feels nice.

 

 

 

I would agree that all such helping is "two-way".  But, it is also possible to sometimes kind of get stuck in a more energetically receptive mode with it.  And some of the stuff can subconsciously resonate with your own deeper subconscious issues, and sort of stick with you.

[Fa Xin]

1 hour ago, ilumairen said:

 

I actually agree with CityHermit! here. And feel it's... (sorry looking for a word, and all that's coming to mind is 'spiritual pomposity') to assume another is closing off when they choose to focus on the physical life they are living more than interactions on internet forums. 

 

Well when you put it that way... perhaps I should’ve been more careful choosing my words. 

 

Didnt mean it that way, CH. I apologize if it came off in a pompous way.  I give the people in my life more attention too... all I meant was that it’s good to be open to other things.