How does suffering come to be

[ankhmor]

There is a world of people born into the most dire circumstances. Take the millions that live in slums.

What is that?

[Kar3n]

Are they suffering? Just because a person doesn't have all the ammenities that you or I have does not mean they are suffering. Many seem to be quite happy with what they have and are unconcerned about what they do not. 

[s1va]

Have you ever watched the Discovery or the Animal channel, when they show a lion or a tiger in the wild, pouncing on a beautiful and unsuspecting deer?  The deer that was having fun just few minutes back is dead now, brutally attacked and getting eaten now.  What to make of this?

 

One person watches this on the TV, and is thrilled.  He yells at his friend, "Did you see how that lion pounced on the deer in a fraction of a second? that was so cool and exciting and watch.  That deer stood no chance!".  His friend doesn't share the same opinion though.  His reaction, "Are you serious? What did that poor deer do to deserve such a fate.  How can you enjoy watching something so cruel?".   This friend becomes sad perhaps for days.  He fumes stating this is unfair. He concludes further there is no God.  Why does that deer has to go through such suffering?  How can a loving God make anyone go through this.

 

Why do two people watching that same scene feel so different?  Is one right and the other wrong? What happened really was simple.  The lion was hungry, it needed some food to survive.  The deer was unlucky, it did go through some terrible pain and die.  However everyone dies someday.  This is how nature works.

 

Perhaps the first person identified himself with the lion and therefore he felt the thrill of the chase or the hunt.  The second guy with the deer and therefore he feels the perceived cruelty and pain.  What happened simply just happened.

 

It is valuable to understand everyone is just like us, looking for happiness but many times ending up with just pleasures and pain.  Understanding this may enable us to help others.  But we need to be careful not to project ourselves into some situation and read more than what the situation really is, or jump to wrong conclusions.

 

Assuming those people in the slums suffer, it may help to ask yourself the question, why does the suffering of those millions in slums especially bother me?  

 

Good luck in finding answers!

[windwalker]

1 hour ago, s1va said:

Assuming those people in the slums suffer, it may help to ask yourself the question, why does the suffering of those millions in slums especially bother me?  

 

Good luck in finding answers!

 

 

In Thailand the Thais look at the Beggers on the street, many with leprosy. 

 

While they feel compassion they also understand that they must have done something in their past lives and are now atoning for it.

 

A better approach might be one while empathetic it's not attached to the feeling of empathy. 

 

Which allows one to do or not do what is needed instead of what is felt.

Edited September 17, 2018 by windwalker

[windwalker]

Regarding the lion and deer.  There is the prey,  there is predator.

 

Not good to be prey.

[windwalker]

7 hours ago, ankhmor said:

There is a world of people born into the most dire circumstances. Take the millions that live in slums.

What is that?

 

It's called fate.

 

And hope.  

 

The parents will have the kids have kids in hope for a better future for them.  They Inturn  will repay this kindness.

 

On the other hand the better the conditions are made for them the more kids they will have, understanding that they do not directly support them..

 

Which makes it much worse for the many already there.

 

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by windwalker

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, windwalker said:

Not good to be prey.

You can say that again.

 

[windwalker]

11 hours ago, ankhmor said:

There is a world of people born into the most dire circumstances. Take the millions that live in slums.

What is that?

 

The Dalai Lama has a solution you may not expect

 

 

[Marblehead]

Yes, I'm sure I would have enjoyed that Viking when I was younger.

 

Okay.  That's done.

 

On to the Dalai Lama.  He sees the truth.  The EU does not want people speaking the truth because they are an arm of the New World Order.

 

I'm sure the Dalai Lama would return to Tibet if he could but China won't let him.

 

Good video and it speaks the truth as far as I understand it.

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

The Taoist precepts are health, wealth and happiness. The energetic of suffering is invisible. When we put our mind over reality we are basically creating what suffering is to ourselves and attaching that to other be it a deer, person, situation. In reality when ripped apart from lions we do not feel pain unless we survive, then we heal and accept the situation we are left with and life goes on.

 

If we never had  extreme external wealth are we suffering. The media likes to show off wealth are we suffering because our lives do not have those material things unless you do not wear a Rolex and have to suffer with a cheap watch then I would have to agree suffering is a real thing as long as I can create suffering for myself or try to get rid of it. Sounds like a good time....not

[windwalker]

"The basis of Buddhism is a doctrine known as the Four Noble Truths.

 

The First Truth is that all life is suffering, pain, and misery"

 

Woa, glad that cleared it up.

 

"The Four Noble Truths of Buddhism are stated in simple terms as:

1. Suffering exists
2. Suffering arises from attachment to desires
3. Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases
4. Freedom from suffering is possible by practicing the Eightfold path"

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by windwalker

[Marblehead]

What's this Buddhist stuff doing in a Daoist Discussion thread?

 

You can keep your Four Noble Truths and your Eightfold Path as well.

 

I will follow Chuang Tzu and drag my tail in the mud as well as we walk along the river bank.

 

 

[Marblehead]

Daoists never suffered until Buddhism made it way to China.

 

Neither Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu spoke about suffering.

 

Maybe the Indians learned sooner how to suffer than did the Chinese?

 

[Stosh]

DAOIST VERSION

 

1 suffering is due to the difference between our favorable expectations , and our experience . 

2 Suffering keeps happening because circumstances change.

3 Life is sometimes difficult , so make the best of it. 

4 We are often our own worst enemy and thats mainly because we have screwed up attitudes. 

[Marblehead]

Pretty good off the cuff stuff.

 

[Stosh]

12 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Pretty good off the cuff stuff

Thanks, I left the eightfold path of virtue for the next guy.

[windwalker]

Let see if I understand

The Dalai Lama good some agree with him. 

 

The Dalai Lama is also considered to be the successor in a line of tulkus who are believed[2] to be incarnations of Avalokiteśvara,[1] a Bodhisattva of Compassion"    must be the Tibetan thing going on.

 

seems like lots of negativity going on here

 

For something that is nothing,,,seems like many here claim it feeling its something to claim

 

one can not say they are a daoist,,,they are   

 

no need to mention it... my chinese name is wu-ming....no name 

They get it here,  often smile in a knowing way a little surprised by a westerner with 

no name...  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by windwalker

[Kar3n]

I am reminded of the movie "The God's Must Be Crazy" when I think about things or the lack there of causing suffering.

 

These folks were happy until the object fell from the sky. They didn't know of it or have a need for it. Only once they had it did they suffer.

 

Suffering in many cases is caused by a sense of lacking some thing, a perceived injustice or need of something outside of ourselves.

 

[windwalker]

Just now, Kar3n said:

Suffering in many cases is caused by a sense of lacking some thing, a perceived injustice or need of something outside of ourselves.

 

 

If someone or something hurts your body or mind do you suffer or does it suffer...

 

We suffer because we are born ....its the way that one looks at it and uses it

that frees oneself from it....not something very attainable for most. 

 

[Kar3n]

4 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

 

If someone or something hurts your body or mind do you suffer or does it suffer...

 

We suffer because we are born ....its the way that one looks at it and uses it

that frees oneself from it....not something very attainable for most. 

 

While that is true, I was speaking to the OP. It is specifically speaking about slums and suffering. My mind goes to a perception that those folks are suffering because they have less, and that is not always the case.

[windwalker]

9 minutes ago, Kar3n said:

These folks were happy until the object fell from the sky. They didn't know of it or have a need for it. Only once they had it did they suffer.

 

good movie....my take 

 

the object revealed that which was already there. 

There is nothing outside of ones self that can effect that which is not already there.

 

for example if one does understand a language and are called a bad name in it.

often they wont react to it...its not real for them...once they have understanding it becomes real

they will react....the reaction was always there.    

[Marblehead]

Yeah, Lao Tzu said (paraphrase), I suffer because I have a body.  If I had no body how could I suffer?

 

But then, no body, no brain, no suffering.

 

I'll just keep my body and deal with my problems as they reveal themselves to me.

 

Destroy it while it is yet still small.

 

 

[s1va]

8 hours ago, windwalker said:

Regarding the lion and deer.  There is the prey,  there is predator.

 

Not good to be prey.

 

In whose perspective on the scene I described?  From the lion's perspective it's food, it is survival, it is all good.

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, windwalker said:

for example if one does understand a language and are called a bad name in it.

often they wont react to it...its not real for them...once they have understanding it becomes real

they will react....the reaction was always there.   

The empty boat story.  Can we empty our boat?

 

[Kar3n]

2 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

good movie....my take 

 

the object revealed that which was already there. 

There is nothing outside of ones self that can effect that which is not already there.

 

for example if one does understand a language and are called a bad name in it.

often they wont react to it...its not real for them...once they have understanding it becomes real

they will react....the reaction was always there.    

Sure, we all have it in us to whack someone over the head with a Coke bottle. If the bottle weren't present would there be suffering because of the perceived need for it? (the question is rhetorical)

 

It is a movie and an example of how things can and do cause suffering.