How does suffering come to be

[Marblehead]

If I reincarnate and if it is as a Buddhist, I promise, I will suffer.

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

In some ways Taoist priests differ from other religions because they do not believe in suffering.  They approach life joyfully, they “Go out of the world”. 

 

  They practice the Tao and see destiny and their destination.  They set up the goal of immortality and it is not easy to change that goal.  They very strictly practice their principle of living.  Only one principle:  Man united with heaven as one – Tao united with nature.  Final achievement is man united with heaven.  They follow what is natural, the truth.  They know they follow the truth so they are very stubborn. 

 

An expression for them is “Stinky Bull’s Nose”.  If they know, if they believe it is true then you cannot change them.  They believe and act based on: “You can take away my life, you cannot take away my spirit”.   They are very straightforward – they never kiss anyone’s ass. 

 

 Any desire, negative desire or emotion cannot turn them around.  When they walk into the mountain they will never go home.  This is what they believe and this is their only destination.  Because of this they are very disciplined and devoted. 

 

Probably a lot easier to be Buddhist.They are able to go into the world and suffer, kiss ass and please everyone creating there own personal suffering.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Wu Ming Jen

[Mudfoot]

2 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

 

Probably a lot easier to be Buddhist.They are able to go into the world and suffer, kiss ass and please everyone creating there own personal suffering.

You are right. 

There are too many wimpy buddhists and too few kick ass take names and then go to the pub buddhists. 

 

"We give suffering. We do not receive it from others)" *

 

Five points to the one that nails which quote I paraphrased. 😁 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Mudfoot

[Fa Xin]

Colors blind the eye. 
Sounds deafen the ear. 
Flavors numb the taste. 
Thoughts weaken the mind. 
Desires wither the heart. The Master observes the world 
but trusts his inner vision. 
He allows things to come and go. 
His heart is open as the sky. 

-TTC 12

[windwalker]

10 hours ago, Kar3n said:

If the bottle weren't present would there be suffering because of the perceived need for it? (the question is rhetorical

 

What the movie is about depends on one's perception.

 

There's always suffering, the bottle just happened to be a focal point presented in a movie.

 

The idea that there was no suffering before the bottle arrived is a fiction the narrative of the movie tries to imply.  It's a movie.

 

There seems to be a movement about that somehow implies Aboriginal cultures lived and operated  in a much better Iife style then present modern-day cultures based on Western values.

 

A fiction that soon falls apart under examination.

 

Suffering begins at Birth and ends at death.  All movement or endeavors by humans are really attempts to mitigate this.

 

  Even to the point of extending life beyond its normal end. As a grunt field medic working on some who didn't make it. It was one of the reasons why I left the field， feeling I was attempting to interrupt the process. We all die, make death a friend was my way to understand life.

 

Over the years I've come to terms with this question long ago.

 

I only mention this to help explain were my own viewpoints come from.   Interesting thread.

Edited September 18, 2018 by windwalker

[windwalker]

8 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

Probably a lot easier to be Buddhist.They are able to go into the world and suffer, kiss ass and please everyone creating there own personal suffering.

 

Wow unexpected.

 

How do you know this.

[windwalker]

8 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

In some ways Taoist priests differ from other religions because they do not believe in suffering.  They approach life joyfully, they “Go out of the world”. 

 

  They practice the Tao and see destiny and their destination.  They set up the goal of immortality.

 

 

Which causes them much suffering because they deny death and don't seem to understand that we are already immortal.

 

If they claim to be like water how does going out of the world square with the fact that water does not seek or avoid any place.

 

it retains its true essence in a sewer or a clear Mountain Lake.

 

Seeking  immortality is not in accordance with the natural way.

 

As long as you have a body it's subject  to the laws of this world suffering in the beginning, death in the end,  freedom.

Edited September 18, 2018 by windwalker

[dosa]

That means things happen due to their own previous action of karma.

[silent thunder]

There may be pain, there may be discomfort, there will be loss.

This does not mean I am suffering.

[windwalker]

5 hours ago, silent thunder said:

There may be pain, there may be discomfort, there will be loss.

This does not mean I am suffering.

 

is there? 

 

pain, discomfort, and loss

 

In the US there are

 

 "unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ——"

 

one is free to suffer or free to be happy....

or in some cases choosing to  suffer might make one happy

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by windwalker

[AugustGreig]

14 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

Colors blind the eye. 
Sounds deafen the ear. 
Flavors numb the taste. 
Thoughts weaken the mind. 
Desires wither the heart. The Master observes the world 
but trusts his inner vision. 
He allows things to come and go. 
His heart is open as the sky. 

-TTC 12

Came to post this. When contemplating suffering, we must remember our principles. Suffering exists, it is a fact of the universe. There is not one who suffers, there is only suffering. This is the first thing we must realize. 

 

Second, and I often quote from Milton's "Paradise Lost" on this point, suffering and ecstacy, pain and pleasure, are the same thing, they are varying degrees of the same thing. This is principle of Tao. Enantiodromia shows us this, as too much food will make you sick, and pain will make you grow. Think of foreplay during sex. This is teasing, a form of torture, but the anticipation gained in those moments when gratification is withheld amplifies it's magnitude when it comes.

 

Suffering is. We do not get swept up in it. We merely observe it and find the same joy there that we do in pleasure. The trick is to stay in the middle, and if you don't understand that, then just practice self control and discipline. Pay attention to your pain, it's there for a reason, it is communicating something to you. Never ignore it. The lower self is like a child, when it isn't getting the attention it needs, it will act out, and we end up harming ourselves and harming others. The lower self is your body.

 

And to OP's specific example, I personally know wealthy lawyers who abused their families in the midst of alcoholic madness, chasing Oblivion because material things weren't what they thought they'd be, and I know homeless people who practically glow and do no harm to anyone, who could teach you more about how to be joyous than I know. You must realize where your conditioning is distorting your reality. Poor people know how to rely on one another, and how to have faith. The wealthy struggle with this.

[windwalker]

22 minutes ago, AugustGreig said:

Poor people know how to rely on one another, and how to have faith. The wealthy struggle with this.

 

wow 

 

poor people = good

wealthy = bad

 

I guess poor people who become wealthy turn bad

wealthy people who become poor become good...

 

[AugustGreig]

7 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

wow 

 

poor people = good

wealthy = bad

 

I guess poor people who become wealthy turn bad

wealthy people who become poor become good...

 

I didn't say that. I was merely describing different aspects that OP seemed not to notice. However, yes, there is a problem with being wealthy. It is all that much worse than other problems, however, it is likely one of the most difficult to overcome. Show me one example of a wealthy spiritual leader or enlightened one from anywhere in history. Those in harmony with Tao have no use for such things, and would she'd them, and they certainly wouldn't become involved in attaining them. It is nearly impossible to amass great wealth without harming others, and even harder to keep it without becoming apathetic. How do I ignore a hungry child when I have more than I could use in 1,000 lifetimes.

 

This isn't to say you aren't allowed to live comfortably. I am very happy for anyone who has enough wealth to survive on, and we should all be so blessed.

[windwalker]

47 minutes ago, AugustGreig said:

Those in harmony with Tao have no use for such things, and would she'd them, and they certainly wouldn't become involved in attaining them. It is nearly impossible to amass great wealth without harming others, and even harder to keep it without becoming apathetic. How do I ignore a hungry child when I have more than I could use in 1,000 lifetimes.

 

lots of assumptions about "those"  not wanting or having use for, and yet many seem to live in big temples that depend on others to support the way they live....why would they do this if they have no use for it.  Why have a temple.....temples cost a lot money to maintain and build....

 

 

I don't know how you ignore one hungry child what about the many,  one might ask where are the parents of the child they brought into the world,  why did the child choose to be born poor ect....

 

It seems many seek to define what the dao is based on ideas that they are not really living just feeling that its this or that 

 

Quote

Show me one example of a wealthy spiritual leader or enlightened one from anywhere in history.

 

 

There are others this is one.  

 

"

Quote

 

"As the Buddha’s fame spread, kings and other wealthy patrons donated parks and gardens for retreats.  The Buddha accepted these, but he continued to live as he had ever since his twenty-ninth year: as a wandering sadhu, begging his own meal, spending his days in meditation. Only now there was one difference. Almost every day, after his noon meal, the Buddha taught. None of these discourses, or the questions and answers that followed, were recorded during the Buddha’s lifetime."

 

 

 

 

notice that in most cases those that practice in this way do not depend on themselves but depend on others

why is that?

 

regarding suffering 

 

Quote

 

"The First Noble Truth of the Buddha stated that all life, all existence, is characterized by duhkha. The Sanskrit word meaning suffering, pain, unsatisfactoriness. Even moments of happiness have a way of turning into pain when we hold onto them, or, once they have passed into memory, they twist the present as the mind makes an inevitable, hopeless attempt to recreate the past.

 

The teaching of the Buddha is based on direct insight into the nature of existence."

 

 

a nice story

 

Quote

 

A Christian missionary found a Chinese priest chanting in a temple. When the Chinese had finished, the missionary asked him: "To whom were you praying?"

"To no one," replied the Chinese priest.

"Well, what were you praying for?" the missionary insisted.

"Nothing," said the Chinese,

The missionary turned away, baffled. As the was leaving the temple the Chinese added, kindly: "And there was no one praying, you know!"

 

 

 

 

 

People suffer because they have a self....

many ways to understand the illusion of self .

 

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by windwalker

[windwalker]

On 9/17/2018 at 10:03 PM, s1va said:

From the lion's perspective it's food, it is survival, it is all good.

 

Are you a lion?

[s1va]

Just now, windwalker said:

 

Are you a lion?

 

If I am a lion, I would have said in my perspective, wouldn't I?

[windwalker]

On 9/17/2018 at 10:03 PM, s1va said:

From the lion's perspective it's food, it is survival, it is all good.

 

 

nope your not a lion,  you can not speak for one....nor  from the perspective of one.

 

"A monk asked Master Chao-chou, "Has a dog the Buddha Nature or not?" Chao-chou said, "Mu!"

 

 

[s1va]

1 minute ago, windwalker said:

 

 

nope your not a lion,  you can not speak for one....nor  from the perspective of one.

 

"A monk asked Master Chao-chou, "Has a dog the Buddha Nature or not?" Chao-chou said, "Mu!"

 

 

 

 

I can't speak for a lion. That is why it is stated as lion's perspective.  I can certainly speak from lion's perspective.

 

The 'prey' statement and the fear you were projecting earlier was your perspective.  I am fine with that also.

[windwalker]

1 minute ago, s1va said:

I can certainly speak from lion's perspective

"a particular attitude towards or way of regarding something; a point of view."

 

no you can't and its ok....

 

regarding predators and prey 

its good not to be prey nothing to do with fear,,,

very much to do with awareness 

 

 

[s1va]

10 minutes ago, windwalker said:

"a particular attitude towards or way of regarding something; a point of view."

 

no you can't and its ok....

 

regarding predators and prey 

its good not to be prey nothing to do with fear,,,

very much to do with awareness 

 

 

 

I agree with you that the 'prey' view does not necessarily have to do with fear.  I am all for being aware and agree it is good.  But I think you did not just stop with 'prey'.  If I remember right you went on to say it is not good to be prey or something like that....  That is your perception my friend.

 

If you look at my first post, I said, 'what happened just happened'.  None of us were there, any interpretation or description of what happened is perspective including prey, predator, etc.   Anyway, I am okay with your views also

 

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, windwalker said:

 

wow 

 

poor people = good

wealthy = bad

 

I guess poor people who become wealthy turn bad

wealthy people who become poor become good...

 

Comparing apples and oranges again?

 

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, windwalker said:

 

Are you a lion?

I am a cougar.  Distant cousins.

 

 

[windwalker]

9 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Comparing apples and oranges again?

 

 

only poor and wealthy....were do the apples and oranges come in...

 

the narrative that rich or wealthy are lacking and poor are some more virtuous because of being poor 

a little trying .

Edited September 18, 2018 by windwalker

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, windwalker said:

only poor and wealthy....were do the apples and oranges come in...

That was a comparison of what I saw happening.  Comparing poor people as good people and wealthy people as not good.  It's just an irrational comparison because there are many bad poor people and there are many good wealthy people.

 

Good/bad and poor/wealthy are two totally different concept without any confirmable links.

 

 

 

[ankhmor]

Well, wow... this got out of hand and off-topic real quick.

 

To clarify, the reference to slums was not about people being born with less, it was about people being born into leprosy and life in very literal feces. What is that?

 

PS. Many of the replies sound like they are written by people in very comfy situations.