Systems and their respective Efficiencies

[Sol]

Huge topic. But I get asked this all the time from patients, students, etc.

What system should I study for personal growth?

Here is my two cents from 30 plus years of professional practice and personal study.

 

This will be a thread that I attend to in between patient load at work. Pardon if my reply is slow at times.

 

Sol

[Cheshire Cat]

Is there a placebo component? 

[Sol]

17 minutes ago, Cheshire Cat said:

Is there a placebo component? 

I prefer to think of placebo as belief, and that is a powerful thing.

Belief has been proven to alter the scientific results of colliding particles in highly observed experiments.

 

So yes, if you believe in something it will have an effect in the direction of the belief.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Sol

[Sol]

Hard martial arts. Karate, Tai Kwan Do, Wu Shu, etc.

Fantastic for kids. Fantastic for people to develop large frame movements with precision. Amazing for mental focus with traditional kata and forms.

Some of the higher level Karate practitioners that I have sparred with were hard as stone.

 

Inefficiencies rear their head in older age. The hardness factor tends to limit their flexibility. This shows up especially in the hip regions of advanced kicking techniques. Hardening of joints can manifest as arthritis later in life as well. Most veterans have had at least one hip or one knee surgery in their medical history.

[Fa Xin]

My thought is whatever system stimulates the most participation/interest/passion in the person 

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, Sol said:

Inefficiencies rear their head in older age.

I can testify to that if you ever need a testimonial.

 

[Sol]

4 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

My thought is whatever system stimulates the most participation/interest/passion in the person 

Yep. Yep. Yep.

Passion origins from the realm of the enteric nervous system. That region has the most ability to tap into the tribal memory of what works to keep an individual alive. Raw data. It KNOWS which areas are most efficient to increase survival probability in the individual. So if it has an element of passion, then that is your enteric system attempting to make you more efficient in a region that is deficient.

 

 

 

 

[Sol]

4 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I can testify to that if you ever need a testimonial.

 

Never piss off the old dudes. They've seen it all and are pretty exhausted at the over exuberance of youthful arrogance.

 

Cheers to grey hairs.

[Sol]

I studied Bagua for about 5 years with two different schools. Briefly with the Yin school. Mostly with the Gao school.

 

I love Bagua. Its like chess of the unarmed combat world. Multi tiered attacks and counter balanced flow based executions. Both the striking and throwing techniques rely on timing and leverage more than strength. The true strength developing exercises of the traditional schools are not to be scoffed at. Some of those guys end up being quite thick and stout. An advanced practitioner is attacking your upper body as a distraction while moving to take out your foundation. Then pretty much crushing you.

 

Great for multi directional attacks. I personally believe this is the style that originated Aikido, but I have no evidence to back that claim.

 

The inefficiency of this art is the obscure style of some techniques. When adrenaline hits, if you have not practiced literally thousands of times, the manner of execution is difficult under full combat flow since it requires higher thought. And it is rather difficult to find a qualified practitioner. Most of the lineages are becoming rather thinned out.

[dosa]

10 hours ago, Sol said:

Huge topic. But I get asked this all the time from patients, students, etc.

What system should I study for personal growth?

Here is my two cents from 30 plus years of professional practice and personal study.

 

I think Good life is practiced in many forms, from Fitness, hypogastric breathing, mindfulness meditation 
it is called a taoist or sundo(仙道).

[Cheshire Cat]

11 hours ago, Sol said:

I prefer to think of placebo as belief, and that is a powerful thing.

Belief has been proven to alter the scientific results of colliding particles in highly observed experiments.

 

So yes, if you believe in something it will have an effect in the direction of the belief.

 

Can you provide some articles about the mentioned highly observed experiments?

 

Assuming that -as you said- placebo is a powerful thing, it must have an impact on one's practices and -given the fact that most qigong/neigung results may fit very well into the category of scientifically recognized placebo therapy benefits- that impact must be strong.

 

If personal belief plays a major role in determining what you can get from a system, how much is relevant to ask about intrinsic systems efficiencies?

[Sol]

9 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

Can you provide some articles about the mentioned highly observed experiments?

 

Assuming that -as you said- placebo is a powerful thing, it must have an impact on one's practices and -given the fact that most qigong/neigung results may fit very well into the category of scientifically recognized placebo therapy benefits- that impact must be strong.

 

If personal belief plays a major role in determining what you can get from a system, how much is relevant to ask about intrinsic systems efficiencies?

In today's search engine heaven, I leave that up to you to find articles. It was an experiment in perception influence on nano particles and their measured  movements. I don't have that kind of time, but I know I read it. Too many kids and patients.

 

Placebo is not the main effect of qi gong and martial arts. If that's my interpretation of your response, you are clearly a huge skeptic.

Strength increase from movement goes along the lines of the ATP cycle and efficiency of glucose use for energy production. There's no argument there. Use it or lose it.

 

Energy is heat. Heat is life. Study of heat is thermal physics. Can't get around it. So definitely not placebo.

[Lost in Translation]

6 minutes ago, Sol said:

Energy is heat. Heat is life.

 

It's interesting you say this. How do you recommend one regulate the heat within?

 

Usually I carry too much heat and I need to give it away. I practice moving slowly or sitting still so the heat may gradually dissipate. But there are times when I don't carry enough heat. In these times I drink strong, hot teas and move more quickly to draw heat inside. 

[Mudfoot]

15 minutes ago, Sol said:

 

Placebo is not the main effect of qi gong 

No, at least the basic health effects are better explained by methods working with autonomic and emotional regulation. 

Much of this is relative new areas in medicine, so "placebo" has historically been used to explain the effects. 

Having confidence in a method or a teacher is also a factor, but not the only one. 

[Sol]

24 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

It's interesting you say this. How do you recommend one regulate the heat within?

 

Usually I carry too much heat and I need to give it away. I practice moving slowly or sitting still so the heat may gradually dissipate. But there are times when I don't carry enough heat. In these times I drink strong, hot teas and move more quickly to draw heat inside. 

To properly regulate heat you must have a good balance of structure vs activity level for your frame. Too much structure or adipose contains heat improperly. Not enough adipose and we lose heat. Too much activity can burn out. Not enough and you wont be able to create energy.

 

To contain heat, you must store in the dantien. It is not a "field" or feeling region. It is an actual container. A physical region.

[Sol]

Hsying Yi Chuan

 

Oh man. I love this system. Introduced via the Vince Black school way back in late 90's.

For those that don't know, its a harder of the soft styles, developed from spear fighting. Very similar to Wing Chun in simplicity. Parry strike, or strike parry. That's about it. Rinse and repeat. Some grappling but mainly a standing striking form. Energy is supposed to be that of a Mountain crashing forward.

 

There are five main fists, and various animal forms.

I still practice to this day, but my style has been worked down into mainly a streamlined 5 fist application. The traditional forms are great, but as I trained with MMA guys as well, I needed to be able to fight vs boxing. And this style will hold its own.

 

Inefficiency is in ground applications and also grappling as its mainly striking. Traditional exercises will develop hard and explosive fa jing strikes, but its not great at storing qi. Unless practiced with intent to slow down.

[Cheshire Cat]

12 hours ago, Sol said:

In today's search engine heaven, I leave that up to you to find articles. It was an experiment in perception influence on nano particles and their measured  movements. I don't have that kind of time, but I know I read it. Too many kids and patients.

 

Dear friend, you call it "heaven" and it definitely is if we take into consideration the amount of time required to find something that you already know. But unfortunately, I can't find anything about the mentioned experiments that I've never heard of before.

I'm sure that the heaven's standard of quality will allow you to provide a link or two without much effort.

 

Otherwise, I'm afraid  that your claim will reside in the realm of urban myths for the purpose of this discussion.

 

12 hours ago, Sol said:

 

Placebo is not the main effect of qi gong and martial arts. If that's my interpretation of your response, you are clearly a huge skeptic.

Strength increase from movement goes along the lines of the ATP cycle and efficiency of glucose use for energy production. There's no argument there. Use it or lose it.

 

Please don't be eager to assign me a label and define what I should think in relation to that.

I have a few valid arguments that can be discussed very briefly without speding hours on them.

 

The first one is that the basic common qigong effect that can be easily attained by anyone and that is usually the one that gives people a reason to trust the various system is... Qi perception -in qigong interpretation-, aka tactile sensations triggered by the mind alone. This very effect is in the category of placebo therapy results.

 

Another point is that of the various martial arts, kung fu styles and esoteric forms almost nothing has the ability to withstand a test in a real fight. As a matter of fact, combat sports discipline doesn't rely on bagua, kung fu or karate because they doesn't work as martial arts. Think about MMA or -better- the chinese army: they fight with sanda and play around with kung fu.

 

ATP cycle and efficiency of glucose use for energy production is a result of breathwork and proper oxygenation of the blood: the Wim Hof breathing method provides the strongest scientific evidence for that.

In simple qigong systems which are composed of movements and breathing, you can't really find efficiencies because apart from blood oxygenation, everything else is placebo as described above. As such, it depends on the quality of one's concentration.

 

 

12 hours ago, Sol said:

 

Energy is heat. Heat is life. Study of heat is thermal physics. Can't get around it. So definitely not placebo.

 

I'm aware that many people achieved the sensation of warmth in the lower abdomen as a result of various manipulations, but before pondering about immortal fetus and Qi stored in spiritual inner oceans, it would serve the purpose of preserving one's health to observe the masters of the art and study their achievements: if pot belly and average lifespan is what you hope to achieve from a lifetime of sincere practice, the methods are all correct.

But if you hope to -at least- prolong your life, it's required to be very cautious of what you practice, in my opinion.

[Mudfoot]

5 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

If pot belly and average lifespan is what you hope to achieve from a lifetime of sincere practice, the methods are all correct.

A common achievement in teachers as far as I can tell, at least the first one. 

[Sol]

Observation effects outcome of experiments.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/02/980227055013.htm

 

Boy, some people sure do take a large amount of time to tear down constructs. I wonder why they are actually here?

 

Traditional martial arts worked in the time they existed. Some of them are indeed obsolete in terms of actual combat. In fact, most of them due to technology. That's why, as a well rounded martial artist, one must be proficient in the weapons of the time. And I am.

 

But old forms have some excellent training methods for both health and longevity. If you are in shape for combat, usually that assists in fighting off disease and the general wear and tear of life. And they are extremely still useful for gaining focus, mental clarity and other health based effects. You can't really separate them from general cardio, weights, etc. All of those things are proven to not be placebo. So to pick on the meditative/martial arts shows you have a specific agenda.

 

And that's all the attention you get.

 

I'm here to help those who actually want to benefit from the practices. Not question their legitimacy.

 

 

[Sol]

Morning!

New day. More patients and time in between to gab with you all!

 

Aikido.

 

Here's a famously torn down system, yet millions still practice. Why?

The stand up grappling type martial art is excellent for learning combat flow. Getting the hell out of the way and then capitalizing on it.

The joint locks are classic. Some more effective than others. I practiced a very long time and can jump in any dojo and people recognize I am no beginner, so count my opinion slightly higher than most.

 

It stinks in direct, one on one combat. MMA usually crushes Aikido guys.

Saved my ass when I was jumped by 6 gang members years ago however. The one practice of Randori is the only martial art I know that specifically trains for multiple attackers.

 

Maybe I didn't get high enough in the system, yet I did practice for nearly 10 years. But the qi development execises and meditation is pretty thin. Simple mindful techniques and repeating extension based movements don't help store qi very well. And a lot of the older guys neglect their cardio, sadly.

 

Still, an excellent traditional form for the less mentally aggressive individuals. Good modern application, and you get to wear a cool outfit. Lol

 

 

[Fate]

So is this thread only for martial systems?

I was curious because Gift of the Tao Qi gong was developed mainly for efficiency, bypassing the moving of energy through channels that most qi gongs have to focus on cultivating the Dan tian to move energy through the whole system

Edited October 2, 2018 by Fate

[Sol]

18 hours ago, Fate said:

So is this thread only for martial systems?

I was curious because Gift of the Tao Qi gong was developed mainly for efficiency, bypassing the moving of energy through channels that most qi gongs have to focus on cultivating the Dan tian to move energy through the whole system

 

Gosh no. Just got busy. If you knew my life, you would understand.

Work. Kids. Business. Writing. Promotions. Competition. I have plenty of energy through qi gong. Otherwise I couldn't sustain it.

I'll go through the various qi gong schools eventually. I've tried most of the teachers you all know out there. My list of instructors with REAL gong is short.

 

Gift of the Tao Qi gong. Don't know it.

 

But you don't need to just develop the dantien to learn qi gong. The traditional path is through muscle tendon qi gong, long before actually learning to develop a center. That's the way of taking youth through forms in the temples, so not my opinion there.

 

There is an individual in the US who teaches some awesome shit. And I'm sure he's been discussed. He is NOT asian. And his stuff is legit. Although some can't wade through his huge ego. But with a big ego, comes a big center. So I kinda like the dude.

 

Other than that, it is the depth of qi gong that is important. Not the form. The form is the shell, the nei gong is the power.

[thelerner]

I did 13 years of Aikido, I'd agree with Sol's comments.  Not the best for MMA, but as a business/family man under relatively high stress it was a life saver.  The movements, intensity, philosophy.. meditation, healing system within.. helped me immensely and I wasn't headed for profession fighting either.   At times being relaxed in the face of a challenge and having the instincts to walk away before a bad situation happened was all I needed.

 

Instead of a single system, its not so bad to stay with a system for a years or decades then move on to something fresh. 

[BMay]

6 hours ago, Sol said:

There is an individual in the US who teaches some awesome shit. And I'm sure he's been discussed. He is NOT asian. And his stuff is legit. Although some can't wade through his huge ego. But with a big ego, comes a big center. So I kinda like the dude.

 

Interesting! May I ask, who is the dude?

[Sol]

14 hours ago, BMay said:

 

Interesting! May I ask, who is the dude?

PM'd.

I'm not here to promote any one person. If people are led to a particular teacher with clout, it is because their karma deems it so.