[DDJ Meaning] Chapter 54

[dawei]

David Hinton 2002
54

Something planted so deep it's never rooted up,
something held so tight it's never stolen away:
children and grandchildren will pay it homage always.
Cultivated in yourself it makes Integrity real.
Cultivated in your family it makes Integrity plentiful.
Cultivated in your village it makes Integrity enduring.
Cultivated in your nation it makes Integrity abundant.
Cultivated in all beneath heaven it makes Integrity all-encompassing.
So look through self into self,
through family into family,
through village into village,
through nation into nation,
through all beneath heaven into all beneath heaven.
How can I know all beneath heaven as it is?
Through this.

 

 

Chad Hansen 2009
54

Worthy builders do not tear down. 
Worthy embracers do not let go. 
Sons and grandsons never stop sacrificing. 
Culture it in one self 
and its virtuosity is authenticity. 
Culture it in a family 
and its virtuosity is sufficiency. 
Culture it in a village 
and its virtuosity is elders. 
Culture it in a state 
and its virtuosity is wealth. 
Culture it in the social world 
and its virtuosity is universality. 
Hence use 'self' to view the self. 
'Family' to view the family. 
'Village' to view the village. 
'State' to view the state. 
'Social world' to view the social world. 
How do I know the social world's condition? 
With this. 

 

 

Moss Roberts 2001
54

Virtue well-founded nothing uproots;
Virtue fast-bound no one can steal;
And this ensures through generations
The sacred services be not cut off.
Cultivated in his character,
His virtue pure and simple.
Cultivated in his clan,
His virtue well suffices.
Cultivated in his district,
His virtue offers leadership.
Cultivated in his kingdom,
His virtue brings prosperity.
Cultivate in this realm below,
His virtue knows no limitation.
This is the reason to consider
Character in terms of character,
Clan in terms of clan,
District in terms of district,
Kingdom in terms of kingdom,
And the world below as the world below.
How do I know this is true of the realm?
By this very means.
 
 

Lok Sang Ho 2002
54

Those skilled in building will build sturdy buildings.
Those skilled in hugging will hug fast.
Because they are serious and excel in what they do93
they are remembered and honored by all their descendents.
He who applies the same seriousness94 to serve his own body95 has true virtue.
He who applies the same seriousness to serve his family
has virtue beyond himself.
He who applies the same seriousness to serve his village
has virtue that grows further afield.
He who applies the same seriousness to serve the nation
has virtue that is profuse.
He who applies to same seriousness to serve all under heaven,
 has virtue that pervades the world.
Thus we see our body as our body is;
See our family as our family is;
We see our village as our village is;
See our nation as our nation is;
And we see everything under heaven as everything is.
How may we know the nature of everything under heaven?
With this (same and serious attitude). 

 

 

Gu Zhengku 1993
54

What is well planted cannot be pulled out;
What is well held cannot be disengaged;
The principle being observed,
The offering of sacrifice by descendants will be kept making for ever.
Similarly cultivating the principle in oneself,
One can purify his virtue;
Cultivating it in the family,
One makes his own virtue more than enough;
Cultivating it in the village,
One can have the virtue to be the leader;
Cultivating it in the state,
One can have the prodigious virtue;
Cultivating it in the world,
One can have the virtue widely known.
Hence I can have an insight
Into other individuals by examining myself;
Into other families by examining my family;
Into other villages by examining my village;
Into other states by examining my state;
Into other worlds by examining my world.
How do I know about the whole world?
By employing the method above.

 

 

Lin Yutang 1948
54

Who is firmly established is not easily shaken. 
Who has a firm grasp does not easily let go. 
From generation to generation his ancestral sacrifices 
   Shall be continued without fail.

Cultivated in the individual, character will become genuine; 
Cultivated in the family, character will become abundant; 
Cultivated in the village, character will multiply; 
Cultivated in the state, character will prosper; 
Cultivated in the world, character will become universal.

Therefore: 
   According to (the character of ) the individual, 
      judge the individual; 
   According to (the character of ) the family, 
      judge the family; 
   According to (the character of ) the village, 
      judge the village; 
   According to (the character of ) the state, 
      judge the state; 
   According to (the character of ) the world, 
      judge the world. 
   How do I know this is so? 
   By this.

 

Flowing Hands 1987
54

The Dao is eternal and cannot be destroyed.
So it is consistent and flowing.
By following the Dao, everything is set in its natural order.
So cultivate the Dao in yourself and it will be realised.
Cultivate it in the family and the family will remain at one.
Cultivate it in the village and everybody will know their part.
Cultivate it in the country and peace and tranquillity will rein.
Cultivate it in the Universe and everything will be flowing naturally.
Therefore, set things in order and remain at one.
How do I know things are like this? Simply by observing.
 

[OldDog]

Just as I was struck by the cold reality of Lok Sang Ho's question at the beginning of Ch 53

 

What makes me know what I know,

And adhere to the Dao

 

I am equally struck by the answers in David Hinton's rendering of Ch 54.

 

Something planted so deep it's never rooted up,

Something held so tight it's never stolen away:

 

And just as Lok Sang Ho so eloquently describes the corruption in society ...

 

When the court is busy with granting honors to its dignitaries.

And not caring for the fields ... overgrown by weeds,

While the granaries are empty;

While the officers of the nation dress themselves ...

And carry sharp swords with air of superiority and power;

While excessive dining and drinking

Go hand in hand with excessive consumption and waste,

You know this is arrogance at the Dao.

 

David Hinton points to the virtue of keeping to that which is fundamental ... so deeply rooted.

 

Cultivated in yourself it makes integrity real.

Cultivated in your family it makes integrity plentiful.

Cultivated in your village it makes integrity enduring.

Cultivated in your nation it makes integrity abundant.

 

It's almost ... political!

 

 

[wandelaar]

57 minutes ago, OldDog said:

It's almost ... political!

 

It is political! Lao tzu was definitely concerned about political matters. I think that's the fundamental difference between Lao tzu and Chuang tzu who hardly ever refers to politics.

[Marblehead]

I actually have conflict with this chapter.

 

Being deeply rooted means you can't move, on your own or even with help.

 

It indicates to me a closed mind, unable to adapt to changing circumstances.

 

A dictatorship where everyone complies with all the law no matter how stupid the laws are.

 

Remember, I am an Anarchist.

 

[wandelaar]

There is a root that not even an anarchist can uproot, and that is Tao (the foundation of all things). So acknowledging that root and holding fast to it will not limit your "room to move" in any way whatever. But it will surely spare you the trouble of trying out impossible paths or solutions.

[dawei]

10 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I actually have conflict with this chapter.

 

Being deeply rooted means you can't move, on your own or even with help.

 

It indicates to me a closed mind, unable to adapt to changing circumstances.

 

A dictatorship where everyone complies with all the law no matter how stupid the laws are.

 

Remember, I am an Anarchist.

 

 

interesting point.

 

Being deeply rooted is like a tree that cannot be blow over easily.... ergo, can't move...

 

But deep roots also means healthy growth that ensures stability and harmony.   In the end, such a strong foundation means you can accept the sun, rain, snow, wind, etc... Nothing else can move you because you are able to move with any element.

[Marblehead]

Both you and Wandelaar did a good job with that one.  Sometimes I just need an alternative perspective other than my own.

 

[OldDog]

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

It is political!

 

Yes! No doubt it is.

 

But what struck me was how applicable those words are to the current political climate ... world in general, America in particular.  

 

Sometimes my attempts at humor only amuse me.

[Stosh]

Who is it that can divert the weightless twirling clouds , 
budge the sloshing sea , or improve  innate virtue? 
One might as well attempt to blot the stars to see the night 
more gently smooth untrammeled snow ,to obscure ones path 
and harness sparrows to flit about 

Edited September 28, 2018 by Stosh

[OldDog]

On 9/27/2018 at 1:39 PM, dawei said:

Something planted so deep it's never rooted up,

 

Marbleheads objection caused me to re-read ... several times ... Hinton's opening line. I have to admit I did not ponder it much. I was preconditioned by my reading of Ch53. I simply accepted the metaphor in lite of the question, "What makes me know ...". 

 

I still like the pairing ... of opening lines ... but it does seem like an odd way to refer to Dao. The "rooted up" seems to be the part difficult to reconcile ... as if anyone would have cause to want to root it up. Even a non-daoist or anti-daoist would not entertain the notion of rooting it up. To do so would mean acknowledging its very rootedness to begin with. 

 

Deep rootedness of Dao could speak to its persistence within regardless of whther acknowledged or not. But perhaps better meaning might be that to know the root you must go deep ... possibly suggested in line nine ...

 

So look through self into self 

 

Refernces to the root are fairly common in Zhuangzi ... here's one that seems appropriate ...

 

The things of the creation are nourished by it, without knowing it. This is the root, from which one may survey the universe.

 

Hinton draws this passage to a close ...

 

How can I know all beneath heaven as it is?

Through this.

 

... but you gotta go deep to find it.

[Marblehead]

I have no where to go with this but I will say that I like the second half of your post.

 

And yes, even I, a Materialist, must sometimes go deep, down to the roots.  This applies to my working in my gardens as well.

 

 

[dawei]

4 hours ago, OldDog said:

 

Marbleheads objection caused me to re-read ... several times ... Hinton's opening line. I have to admit I did not ponder it much. I was preconditioned by my reading of Ch53. I simply accepted the metaphor in lite of the question, "What makes me know ...". 

 

I still like the pairing ... of opening lines ... but it does seem like an odd way to refer to Dao. The "rooted up" seems to be the part difficult to reconcile ... as if anyone would have cause to want to root it up. Even a non-daoist or anti-daoist would not entertain the notion of rooting it up. To do so would mean acknowledging its very rootedness to begin with. 

 

Deep rootedness of Dao could speak to its persistence within regardless of whther acknowledged or not. But perhaps better meaning might be that to know the root you must go deep ... possibly suggested in line nine ...

 

So look through self into self 

 

Refernces to the root are fairly common in Zhuangzi ... here's one that seems appropriate ...

 

The things of the creation are nourished by it, without knowing it. This is the root, from which one may survey the universe.

 

Hinton draws this passage to a close ...

 

How can I know all beneath heaven as it is?

Through this.

 

... but you gotta go deep to find it.

 

I've enjoyed your comments in these chapters so keep going

 

LZ, when not being like an abstract ZZ and talking of silliness like wu wei  ,  he uses very foundational and physical ideas for Dao:  Mother, child, roots, water.  These all represent the essence of life, of a strong life.    In this case, it is to say that Dao cannot be uprooted.   

 

I think Flowing Hands cut straight to the point:   The Dao is eternal and cannot be destroyed.

[OldDog]

1 hour ago, dawei said:

... he uses very foundational and physical ideas for Dao:  Mother, child, roots, water

 

Part of what mkes Laozi poetic. Words like those have a visceral, deep seated meaning ... they say more than whole sentences or paragraphs. 

 

1 hour ago, dawei said:

In this case, it is to say that Dao cannot be uprooted.

 

Yes I think so. All things have Dao as thier origin. Not too far a leap to say there is a bit of Dao within everything ... the deep root. Neidan seeks to return to Dao. Perhaps the root deep within is the way to know the Dao.

 

 

[dawei]

4 hours ago, OldDog said:

Part of what mkes Laozi poetic. Words like those have a visceral, deep seated meaning ... they say more than whole sentences or paragraphs. 

 

Yes, this is part and parcel for chinese and I think we miss this not being native.  A single character can carry history. 

 

 

4 hours ago, OldDog said:

Yes I think so. All things have Dao as thier origin. Not too far a leap to say there is a bit of Dao within everything ... the deep root. Neidan seeks to return to Dao. Perhaps the root deep within is the way to know the Dao.

 

I've always said that De is Dao in you.  I realize that likely means that I associate De as the roots of Dao [in us].   And I've often talked of listening to the 'inner voice' which is what I've also called that beacon if light shining inside.   Ergo, I guess that is also the root talking to the soil [mankind].   

 

[wandelaar]

8 hours ago, dawei said:

I've always said that De is Dao in you.  I realize that likely means that I associate De as the roots of Dao [in us].   And I've often talked of listening to the 'inner voice' which is what I've also called that beacon if light shining inside.   Ergo, I guess that is also the root talking to the soil [mankind].  

 

That is also how I see it. Except for the "beacon of light shining inside"-part. I don't think Tao cares for us (remember the straw dogs). We would do wise to reckon with Tao as Tao is the way the world works, and ignoring how the world works is asking for trouble. But I wouldn't reckon on it that everything will turn out fine as long as we faithfully listen to our inner voice and/or let things happen as they please. Reality ain't like that.

[Wu Ming Jen]

This chapter is about virtue and how we are all connected.

 

Lao Tzu is no friend of obligations. He prefers such bonds to be voluntary. They should be consequences of one's virtue, and one's sense of what's natural, and not some laws to which we are forced to surrender. With true virtue it sprouts from the seed within and spreads around the world.

 

       Virtue should be cultivated, and not preached. One needs to find it within oneself, in one's search for the Way. Otherwise, the virtue is ill planted and ill held, so it will be uprooted and escape.

 

This energy can not be created or destroyed but it could be lost, miss placed, forgotten, ignored or just a mystery that ancient sages obtained.

[Wu Ming Jen]

If I was chuang tzu I would us satire and humor to express my views like buildings falling down, crops not yielding, plants love electrolytes. and soda not water, a world without virtue...... oh wait it is already happening that makes it even more funny.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, we should, now and then, turn off the TV so we can relate with reality.

 

[OldDog]

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I don't think Tao cares for us ...

 

That statement made me stop and think. I am not sure you meant it as harshly as it sounded ... or probably more like as I heard it.

 

I think Dao does not not care for us. If we are to accept the notions put forward by the ancients, all things issue forth from the Dao and are nurtured impartially. We (us) come forth into a world that has what we need to thrive ... but also has dangers and risks to individual survival. 

 

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

... reckon with Tao as Tao is the way the world works ...

 

Dao as a (living?) eternal process seems to be well within the notions set forth by the ancients. In this sense there is no anthropomorphic entity to "care". Such a view would seem highly pragmatic as a way to reckon with Dao.

 

 From this point of view, where does Virtue come into play?

 

@Wu Ming Jen (above) has something to say about Virtue that rings true. 

 

We started out this thread with some focus on 

 

Something planted so deep it's never rooted up.

 

Perhaps Virtue is the seed planted within us when we come forth into the world that gives us the potential to reckon with the impartial world. Whether as individuals we are successful or not may be an issue of cultivation, as suggested by WMJ.

[Marblehead]

We should take care to not confuse Taoist "Virtue" with the Confucian concept of "Virtue".

 

When I start looking in that direction I almost immediately remember the title of one of the translations of the TTC.  (I forget the translator's name.)

 

The Book of the Way and Its Power.

 

 

[Marblehead]

Okay.  I had to look.  It is Arthur Waley's translation

 

[OldDog]

3 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

... energy can not be created or destroyed ...

 

The notion that energy can not be created or distroyed is a very powerful one. When I first heard that phrase ... probably is an elementary Physics class somewhere ... it stopped me in my tracks. The absoluteness and seeming irrefutability of that statement leaves no place to go. I committed it to memory as a guiding eternal truth. 

 

Consideration of Virtue as a seed of energy that can be misplaced, forgotten or ignored by us as individual instances of being is a very powerful image for failure to cultivate. Perhaps this is what is involved in destiny and fate.

[wandelaar]

Virtue as a moral category doesn't fit into philosophical Taoism. The kind of "virtue" that is promoted by Lao tzu is aimed at staying out of trouble and living a life of inner peace and contentment. There is no claim being made that Taoism is morally superior to for instance Confucianism. Philosophical Taoism is very much like ancient Epicureanism in this regard.

[OldDog]

10 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

 

We should take care to not confuse Taoist "Virtue" with the Confucian concept of "Virtue"

 

 

Absolutely. As I was commenting above I realized how close I was getting to the Confucian notion of virtue. I have not studied Confucius much ... probably something I should do ... but I don't feel ready for it. I feel like I should have a better sense for virtue in a Daoist sense before taking on Confucius. 

 

Daoism and Confucianism are often seen as at odds with each other. I don't think that is true. I tend to see Daoism as applicable to individual personal development ... where Confucianism deals with applied conduct in social structure. I tend to think ... would hope ... that they both issue from the same source. Sure would be elegant if that were the case. 

 

 

[OldDog]

14 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Virtue as a moral category doesn't fit into philosophical Taoism.

 

 

Fair enough. 

 

Perhaps what I have been arguing is a case for Virtue outside of the bounds of philosophy ... as a process ... not simply as a label.