Are the ethics really being practiced?

[Long Yun]

Ok, here's my question for TaoBums. (And I genuinely mean no harm in asking this. I'm just trying to stimulate some minds out there.)

 

From what I've read (besides the classics; i.e. Magus of Java, Opening the Dragon Gate, etc.) the current trend in ethics among great masters is to pass on what they know for the greater good of humanity. For posterity, so to speak. Kosta Danaos talks alot about this in his book.

 

I am no Taoist master. I haven't even read the whole Tao Te Ching, and I don't fully understand half of what I have read. And I am not a master of morals either; I get angry, hurtful, and inconsiderate far more often than I should. But is it, or is it not, wrong to charge money to transmit trainings that are "for posterity?"

 

Are the costs involved in Verdesi's system reasonable? I mean, is it possible that they have that much overhead to pay? (Not an attack, just a genuine question. Where does this money go?)

 

Is charging for books (Magus, Dragon Gate, etc.) even reasonable? I know you have to pay for publishing and printing, but other groups are getting their literature distributed without charging a dime. Look at the Hare Krishna's. Now, they are basically the most annoying Hindu's or whatever that I've ever met but still, they get the job done only asking for donations.

 

My point is, that the "true seekers" that Verdesi's charges are trying to separate from the rest would naturally be separated from the rest by the sheer difficulty of genuinely attaining the Tao. Those who should not or would not attain the Tao, would not. And if the Hare Krishna's can distribute their methods free of charge, why can't some of us Taoists, helping those who need it?

 

I'm new to TaoBums, so let me know what you all think.

 

And please, no attacks on anyone, including Verdesi or especially me

[Brian L. Kennedy]

In traditional Chinese Daoism, including modern day versions here in Taiwan, charging money (oftentimes lots of money) is the norm. There is no idea that Daoist teachings or training or Daoist services (i.e. exorcisms, purity rites or membership initiation fees into the various lineages) is "on the house".

 

You pay, and you pay a lot. The idea that Daoism is free or should be free, is an idea generated by people who saw one too many Kwai Chang Caine Kung Fu t.v. shows.

 

take care,

Brian

[WhiteTiger]

All i can say it is a really big disappointment when you have a student whom your willing to teach very deep details and they don't put commitment into it. Its a waste of there time and patience. Energy and so forth. They could just rather practice for there own benefit or teach a student willing to go a long way in the art or all the way.

 

Why they ask so much money... I'm not justifying what they do. I don't believe in it honestly BUT, i would like to point out that this could be one of the big reasons.

 

As far as money is concerned I personally know of teachers that asked for barely anything from there students to teach them in depth training and gems of there art while at the same time the students always took it for granted.

 

I know people that make money off of making a martial arts while the teachers spend most of the time making it look like its all that and teach them barely anything in terms of training in ability and barely any conditioning.

 

Not saying that justifies paying so much money for learning any art but thats definately one reason.

 

In traditional Chinese Daoism, including modern day versions here in Taiwan, charging money (oftentimes lots of money) is the norm.

It might happen often but that doesn't mean that the teachings itself isn't free. I disagree.

 

 

There is no idea that Daoist teachings or training or Daoist services (i.e. exorcisms, purity rites or membership initiation fees into the various lineages) is "on the house".

I agree! it is on the house and that is worth something of special value. The same idea as something being priceless. (while it might not necessarily be exactly priceless its worth lots more then money itself.) The coin has two sides.

Edited February 6, 2008 by WhiteTiger

[Buddy]

As I've mentioned before, nobody pays me for what I teach. They pay for my time.

[SFJane]

Well, I am not sure where you all live exactly but here in America it costs money to satisfy the basics of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

 

Regardless of what you are selling, books, trainings, attunements, time, life force, whatever. If it helps pay the bills and people genuinely want what you are selling then do what it takes. If you can turn a profit from specialized skills or knowledge , then great. Bonus karma if you can be genuine, make people happy while being honest and financially successful. You have to use your best judgement for your circumstances and follow the calling of your heart while remaining pragmatic in a capitalist economy.

Edited February 7, 2008 by SFJane

[Long Yun]

Thanks folks.

 

But I mean, can anyone tell me why Verdesi has these fees? And Brian, why do these Taiwanese masters ask for this? I know that just giving away teachings is not part of any Taoist doctrine, and I know that many would take for granted or even take advantage of such teachings. But if people are genuinely committed and sincere, why should they have to remain uncultivated just because they can't afford to go to Denmark or China or where ever else to train?

 

On the other hand, what are some real justifications for charging like this? Is the money going to the greater good? Is it paying towards a better school for the master to teach in or something like that?

 

Again, I'm pretty new here, so I'm using these threads to get these answers, but also to get to know some of you better.

 

P.S.:

 

Buddy, that's the way I think it ought to be. If I were training in China, I'd have to pay for room and board anyway, so why should there be a huge tuition fee? Right on.

[vitagong]

If it was not for the book Magus of Java, we would not be even having this conversation. John Chang is not one who can be compared to the teachers who can be easily found. It has been written by those in the know that the book was not meant to be the way it was, and perhaps not at all.

[Hern Heng]

Paying for TRAINING or for BOOKS, etc is normal. The Mo Pa'i tradition is ABNORMAL in not charging ANYTHING.

 

Paying for "contact" is unheard of.

 

Paying to cover overhead and to make a fair living is normal.

 

...THIS however, STILL traditionally requires that one be AUTHORIZED to teach and have some proof of this.

[doc benway]

Teachers have got to eat and feed and clothe their families too. When someone can teach you something that may improve your life, isn't that worth something? In our world, the instrument of trade is money. At one time perhaps, you lived with your shifu as a family member, doing chores and so on. Maybe you paid for your knowlege and training in livestock, rice, and so on. That's pretty much a thing of the past. There are still some temples and monastaries where one can retreat to and learn without payment other than to work on behalf of the community. There you are paying with your time. As a teacher, whether you consider it payment for your time, your knowlege, your skill, your expertise,... what does it matter? This is how we live together and each have our own area of specialization that can benefit others.

[satyagraha]

Thanks folks.

 

But I mean, can anyone tell me why Verdesi has these fees? And Brian, why do these Taiwanese masters ask for this? I know that just giving away teachings is not part of any Taoist doctrine, and I know that many would take for granted or even take advantage of such teachings. But if people are genuinely committed and sincere, why should they have to remain uncultivated just because they can't afford to go to Denmark or China or where ever else to train?

 

On the other hand, what are some real justifications for charging like this? Is the money going to the greater good? Is it paying towards a better school for the master to teach in or something like that?

 

Again, I'm pretty new here, so I'm using these threads to get these answers, but also to get to know some of you better.

 

P.S.:

 

Buddy, that's the way I think it ought to be. If I were training in China, I'd have to pay for room and board anyway, so why should there be a huge tuition fee? Right on.

 

 

one who is attached to money, one who is reluctant to pay, demonstrates very obviously that their minds are not ready to grasp the TAO. Payment I believe is kind of a new age sacrifice, a new age commitment to the art, if it was free, everyone would take it for granted, and he would not attract real students. It is kind of a filtration process..

 

 

just a thought!

[Long Yun]

satyagraha Posted Today, 09:29 PM

 

one who is attached to money, one who is reluctant to pay, demonstrates very obviously that their minds are not ready to grasp the TAO. Payment I believe is kind of a new age sacrifice, a new age commitment to the art, if it was free, everyone would take it for granted, and he would not attract real students. It is kind of a filtration process..

 

 

just a thought!

 

Satyagraha, I think you are mistaking my point. It's not that I am unwilling to pay for training, it's that I am unable to pay. Perhaps one day I will have enough to spare, but not now.

 

However, you really struck home with your comment. It is plain as day to me when put into terms of attachment that I am not ready to attain the Tao. But I still want to try, and I have to get a good beginning foundation to do so.

 

 

P.S:

 

vitagong, you got me:) I can honestly say that had I not read that book, I wouldn't be thinking along these lines. Maybe I need to be taken down a notch...

 

[Hern Heng]

one who is attached to money, one who is reluctant to pay, demonstrates very obviously that their minds are not ready to grasp the TAO. Payment I believe is kind of a new age sacrifice, a new age commitment to the art, if it was free, everyone would take it for granted, and he would not attract real students. It is kind of a filtration process..

just a thought!

 

Yes, this sounds great, so why not charge $1 Million USD for training? Why stop at $40,000, $7,000 or $2,800 "Contact Fees" and $250 to read a forum or $300 for a beginning student to speak to someone about their Shrfu?

 

Obviously charging is not unethical, it is the AMOUNT being charged - above and beyond reason - that is unethical. A filtration process would ONLY work if the prices were within reason. The only thing this would filter is the RICH unwilling to pay or the POOR unable to pay. Calling this a filtration process is logically unacceptable.

[xenolith]

Requiring payment for the wisdom that one can share freely accomplishes only one thing of significance...elimination of critics.

 

The wise will pay not in coin for the wisdom they seek. Dedication will be their currency.

[Long Yun]

Hern Heng Posted Today, 10:21 PM

 

Yes, this sounds great, so why not charge $1 Million USD for training? Why stop at $40,000, $7,000 or $2,800 "Contact Fees" and $250 to read a forum or $300 for a beginning student to speak to someone about their Shrfu?

 

Obviously charging is not unethical, it is the AMOUNT being charged - above and beyond reason - that is unethical. A filtration process would ONLY work if the prices were within reason. The only thing this would filter is the RICH unwilling to pay or the POOR unable to pay. Calling this a filtration process is logically unacceptable.

 

Quit calling me poor... Just kidding. I really like the types of things being discussed here. Satyagraha's philosophy makes perfect sense. On the other hand, your's, Hern Heng, makes just as much sense.

 

SO

 

Since I have no local teacher (I live part of the time at college in south Georgia, part of the time at home in north Georgia), am I to rely on books like the Tao Te Ching, Hui Ming Ching, and the Yellow Emperor's Classic on Internal Medicine? Or am I to put my life on hold, impacting not only myself and my education, but the overall well-being of my family as well? My logic tells me to do the best I can reasonably do for now, which is refer to the texts...

 

I guess someone had to figure it out some time:)

[satyagraha]

Yes, this sounds great, so why not charge $1 Million USD for training? Why stop at $40,000, $7,000 or $2,800 "Contact Fees" and $250 to read a forum or $300 for a beginning student to speak to someone about their Shrfu?

 

Obviously charging is not unethical, it is the AMOUNT being charged - above and beyond reason - that is unethical. A filtration process would ONLY work if the prices were within reason. The only thing this would filter is the RICH unwilling to pay or the POOR unable to pay. Calling this a filtration process is logically unacceptable.

 

i understand your point. I am simply saying that if there was a sign that read:

 

"free secret taoist totally rad bitching training!"

 

there would be no way to filter people who trust the teacher and people who are just coming for the free lemon water...

 

that is all, don't know if it made sense...

 

maybe its my way of justifying a stupid, materialistic act? i don't know...just my two cents.

[Cameron]

The thing is most of this isn't really accurate.

 

You can do Foundation Training or a sort of pre foundation training with one of David Shen's students in Oregon next month and the price isn't 10k.

 

I don't know how much it is, but one of our regular posters here Joeblast just signed up for it. He just did the Max Kunlun workshop in Phoenix also(Go Joe!)

 

So they sort of set it up where you can do this training here in the US for less money and is something like a week long retreat.

 

My guess is that after you did that retreat you would get an accurate enough sense if the China trip or whatever the next phase of there training is for you or not.

 

I am looking forward to hearing Joe's feedback in his journal after he does the retreat.

 

Cam

[Long Yun]

It made sense, satyagraha. I'm still thinking on it And I still want all your opinions on what someone in my position should do. I'm not afraid of making the decision (I've already decided that I'll go it alone if a teacher doesn't start a practice within a reasonable distance from me), so my reason for wanting your opinions is to learn a little more about how you all got your starts.

 

Give me some of your experiences. Tell me if you know of any teachers that may be nearby to Georgia (nearer than China or California at least). I appreciate everything that's been said on here so far, as it's all worth noting and pondering. Let me know of some way I can get my basis started. Thanks.

[Hern Heng]

No one is suggesting that teaching be free. i am suggesting that costs be realistic AND that they be paid only to LINEAGED teachers OR to those who can otherwise DEMONSTRATE their advertised or insinuated capabilities. Fees to "Contact" people should not exist. i've never heard of such a thing before Sean and David. Paying a beginner who is a student of a man who is himself unverified (in ability and lineage), just to speak about his teacher's abilities is nothing short of insane.

 

But fees are rarely about "weeding" people out. Fees are about paying the bills. Tests weed people out, either tests of character, skills, patience or a combination of these things. Fees do not weed out the sincere as the rich could always have a natural advantage over even the most sincere of poor.

Edited February 7, 2008 by Hern Heng

[xenolith]

No one is suggesting that teaching be free.

I am.

 

Free from cost in monetary terms. Pay should be in dedication.

 

You young ones are foolish to seek to pay for wisdom. It is a thing borne of experience. No teacher can provide you with more experience than you can provide for yourself. Become accountable for your spiritual evolution now and save yourselves the difficulty of separating accountability for said from that whom you now think to abdicate it to.

Edited February 7, 2008 by xenolith

[Cameron]

It made sense, satyagraha. I'm still thinking on it And I still want all your opinions on what someone in my position should do. I'm not afraid of making the decision (I've already decided that I'll go it alone if a teacher doesn't start a practice within a reasonable distance from me), so my reason for wanting your opinions is to learn a little more about how you all got your starts.

 

Give me some of your experiences. Tell me if you know of any teachers that may be nearby to Georgia (nearer than China or California at least). I appreciate everything that's been said on here so far, as it's all worth noting and pondering. Let me know of some way I can get my basis started. Thanks.

 

 

Hi Wu Liu.

 

I am aware that a student of Wudang Taoist Master Tseng teaches in Atlanta. And from what I understand Master Tseng regularly does workshops there.

 

You can check that out at wudangtao.com

 

The Atlanta school is here http://www.risingphoenixtaichi.com/id11.html

 

Also, alot of us are practicing Kunlun from Kunlunbliss.com. You can purchase the book for $15.

 

Cam

[Long Yun]

Cameron Posted Today, 10:52 PM

 

 

Hi Wu Liu.

 

I am aware that a student of Wudang Taoist Master Tseng teaches in Atlanta. And from what I understand Master Tseng regularly does workshops there.

 

You can check that out at wudangtao.com

 

The Atlanta school is here http://www.risingphoenixtaichi.com/id11.html

 

Also, alot of us are practicing Kunlun from Kunlunbliss.com. You can purchase the book for $15.

 

Cam

 

Thanks Cameron! I can't believe I haven't come across this before now. And I appreciate the direction to Kunlun, I'll check into it.

 

But I'm still open to as many other opinions as are given. I'll consider them all

[Cameron]

No problem!

[joeblast]

Money is a tool, nothing more. Not all of us have the means to travel here or there to meet with whomever, but those of us that do and have the desire to learn have no qualms about coughing up a little cash. For instance, my younger brother just paid $60,000 to go to school for ONE YEAR to learn to fly a helicopter - and that's after he spent 3, 4 years and I have no clue how much money in aviation mechanics. Lot of money, aint it? People bitched about Max's workshops costing $300, when the reality is that these guys arent raking in tons of dough doing this. The Foundation seminar is a week and its probably going to run me $1900 or so. (edit: training + room + flight) How much is a week in the caribbean?? Or a weeklong cruise?

 

This is no different. This is modern society, and the grease that keeps the cogs turning is money. You dont get stuff for free these days, and if you do, it is an extremely rare circumstance. Its laughable having people keep wanting proof delivered to their doorstep...and for free, no less. If one reads as much available info as they can find and still deem something to be bullshit, is there a need to gripe about it, or others deriving benefit from it? This rash of threads here with people complaining about what other's attainments are or might be or if whomever is charging too much money is getting pretty tiresome. I dont know about the rest of you, but I am here to learn and grow by virtue of being a member of this forum, not read people griping about this or that. A healthy dose of skepticism is always beneficial, but the rude manner a lot of it has been packaged in only creates a negative attitude, energy if you will, about the thread. Emotions are stirred, people reply in a hotheaded or halfassed manner without hitting the preview post button to see what they are actually conveying, and the forum as a whole grows poorer. I can very much sympathize with why the Foundation board was closed off and why the kunlun forum will only be available to those that have taken seminars. Its all in the interest of keeping things productive.

 

Xeno, anyone that believes he could pay for wisdom would be sadly mistaken. I agree that it is absolutely borne of experience. But I'm not paying to try to get wisdom, I'm paying to learn training methods that will help me on my path. We're all walking paths, and if I want to buy better boots, crampons, harnesses, ropes, then perhaps I might have a few more paths show themselves. Its the travel along the path that is important. We're all responsible for the navigation of our own path, after all

Edited February 7, 2008 by joeblast

[MASTERforge]

xenolith is absolutely right. I shared xenolith's thoughts as I was reading all of the posts.

 

$ paid is not proportunate to attainment level

 

Why do people think they have to pay for attaining dao? what is attaining dao anyway? Sattori? Sattori can't be paid for by any currency.

 

Education can be bought. I went to university will quite a few people who shouldn't have been there. But they scraped though by cheating and got themselves a degree. It was their money which paid for it. Not their character.

 

How can anything spiritual be bought? It can help you along the path by reading books and attending seminars. But what you get out of this is entirely up to you. Someone once said:

 

'people have intellectual freedom to read and believe what they want. Simply because most people have no intellect'.

 

The truth is that the path to Dao can only be yours. You can't walk others path and paying people won't get you further down the road. Hard work and commitment wont even get you there. Because when you get it, you will realise it was there all along. It was just your mind playing tricks on you.

 

Exploring zen has helped me in this realisation.

[Long Yun]

Money is a tool, nothing more. Not all of us have the means to travel here or there to meet with whomever, but those of us that do and have the desire to learn have no qualms about coughing up a little cash. For instance, my younger brother just paid $60,000 to go to school for ONE YEAR to learn to fly a helicopter - and that's after he spent 3, 4 years and I have no clue how much money in aviation mechanics. Lot of money, aint it? People bitched about Max's workshops costing $300, when the reality is that these guys arent raking in tons of dough doing this. The Foundation seminar is a week and its probably going to run me $1900 or so. (edit: training + room + flight) How much is a week in the caribbean?? Or a weeklong cruise?

 

This is no different. This is modern society, and the grease that keeps the cogs turning is money. You dont get stuff for free these days, and if you do, it is an extremely rare circumstance. Its laughable having people keep wanting proof delivered to their doorstep...and for free, no less. If one reads as much available info as they can find and still deem something to be bullshit, is there a need to gripe about it, or others deriving benefit from it? This rash of threads here with people complaining about what other's attainments are or might be or if whomever is charging too much money is getting pretty tiresome. I dont know about the rest of you, but I am here to learn and grow by virtue of being a member of this forum, not read people griping about this or that. A healthy dose of skepticism is always beneficial, but the rude manner a lot of it has been packaged in only creates a negative attitude, energy if you will, about the thread. Emotions are stirred, people reply in a hotheaded or halfassed manner without hitting the preview post button to see what they are actually conveying, and the forum as a whole grows poorer. I can very much sympathize with why the Foundation board was closed off and why the kunlun forum will only be available to those that have taken seminars. Its all in the interest of keeping things productive.

 

Xeno, anyone that believes he could pay for wisdom would be sadly mistaken. I agree that it is absolutely borne of experience. But I'm not paying to try to get wisdom, I'm paying to learn training methods that will help me on my path. We're all walking paths, and if I want to buy better boots, crampons, harnesses, ropes, then perhaps I might have a few more paths show themselves. Its the travel along the path that is important. We're all responsible for the navigation of our own path, after all

 

I'm willing to admit that the point of this thread, morality associated with money, no longer strikes me as a deep ethical concern. And you're right, Joe. This is an awful lot of griping and not enough productive thought. I think we should stop this thread now and move on to other things. My bad for putting this up here in the first place. My future questions will be about my own practice, not the morals of other people. (Even though my original intention was to balance thoughts on how it's right just as much as how it's wrong.) Let's just drop it.