questions about 大道密印歌 and 壺雲禪師

[Shubin]

It was very helpful that dosa provided detailed explanation on my questions in another thread.

To make them more clear, and to learn more, I am starting a new topic related to these questions.

Please feel free to make comments, suggestions etc., or point out my mistakes/errors since English is my 2nd language (Chinese is the 1st).

 

Q1:  If it is true that "壺雲禪師 is 柳華陽's second teacher", could anyone please provide a clue or evidence that could support it ?

 

It is well known that in《慧命經》, 柳華陽 had written that  "嗣至匡廬，又遇壺雲老師", but I would like to make sure that 壺雲禪師 and壺雲老師 are the same person.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Shubin

[dosa]

7 hours ago, Shubin said:

It was very helpful that dosa provided detailed explanation on my questions in another thread.

To make them more clear, and to learn more, I am starting a new topic related to these questions.

Please feel free to make comments, suggestions etc., or point out my mistakes/errors since English is my 2nd language (Chinese is the 1st).

 

Q1:  If it is true that "壺雲禪師 is 柳華陽's second teacher", could anyone please provide a clue or evidence that could support it ?

 

It is well known that in《慧命經》, 柳華陽 had written that  "嗣至匡廬，又遇壺雲老師", but I would like to make sure that 壺雲禪師 and壺雲老師 are the same person.

 

Morning, It's a beautiful morning to work out.

 

Q1:  If it is true that "壺雲禪師 is 柳華陽's second teacher", could anyone please provide a clue or evidence that could support it ?

 

慧命經
自 序

閱及半載，幸遇合伍沖虛師，傳餘秘旨，豁然通悟，乃知慧命之道，即我所本有之靈物。嗣至匡廬，又遇壺雲老
After half a year, I was lucky to meet teacher 伍沖虛. .... After that, I went to 匡廬 and met teacher 壺雲 again.

Original text link : https://cafe.naver.com/breakoff/4413

 

It is well known that in《慧命經》, 柳華陽 had written that  "嗣至匡廬，又遇壺雲老師", but I would like to make sure that 壺雲禪師 and壺雲老師 are the same person.

 

Well, they are the same person. His name is 壺雲, and  老師 and 禪師 are address.
老師: an old teacher
禪師: a zen teacher

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by dosa

[Shubin]

11 hours ago, dosa said:

 

Morning, It's a beautiful morning to work out.

 

Q1:  If it is true that "壺雲禪師 is 柳華陽's second teacher", could anyone please provide a clue or evidence that could support it ?

 

慧命經
自 序

閱及半載，幸遇合伍沖虛師，傳餘秘旨，豁然通悟，乃知慧命之道，即我所本有之靈物。嗣至匡廬，又遇壺雲老
After half a year, I was lucky to meet teacher 伍沖虛. .... After that, I went to 匡廬 and met teacher 壺雲 again.

Original text link : https://cafe.naver.com/breakoff/4413

 

It is well known that in《慧命經》, 柳華陽 had written that  "嗣至匡廬，又遇壺雲老師", but I would like to make sure that 壺雲禪師 and壺雲老師 are the same person.

 

Well, they are the same person. His name is 壺雲, and  老師 and 禪師 are address.
老師: an old teacher
禪師: a zen teacher

 

 

Good morning, dosa.

Thanks for answering my questions. It is nice that you translated the Chinese text into English so I can have a better understanding.

 

It is possible that 壺雲禪師 and 壺雲老師 are the same person, but another person could name himself as 壺雲, or was named as 壺雲 by his master.

匡廬 https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/庐山 is a large mountain, and the area of it is about 300 square kilometers. It is possible that someone else was called as 匡廬山人壺雲 between year 1750 and 1900 in China. 

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by Shubin

[Shubin]

add a little more info about 匡廬。 It is called as 庐山 after 1920(?). 

In Dec, 1996, Lushan National Parkt is established in that area.

unesco: Lushan National Park, https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/778

http://www.people.com.cn/GB/wenhua/1087/2508459.html

 

At home page of dosa, https://www.thedaobums.com/profile/118433-dosa/,  

it showed a beautiful photo of Songnisan National Park. It is about 275  square kilometers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songnisan_National_Park

Edited October 4, 2018 by Shubin

[dosa]

It could be. This is so interesting, I love archeology.
I want to visit there sometime. 

[Shubin]

22 hours ago, dosa said:

It could be. This is so interesting, I love archeology.
I want to visit there sometime. 

 

It is good to know that I did not make you feel bored. I like archaeology, too, and I think we might be working on a cultural or

historical/taoist relic, but I am not sure it is a Korean relic or a China relic, or both.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Shubin

[dosa]

19 minutes ago, Shubin said:

 

It is good to know that I did not make you feel bored. I like archaeology, too, and I think we might be working on a cultural or

historical/taoist relic, but I am not sure it is a Korean relic, or a China relic, or both.

 

At least, It all began with one great teacher of the name of 紫府仙人
You may find it hard to believe, but I have he's a zen-law
 

[Shubin]

9 hours ago, dosa said:

 

At least, It all began with one great teacher of the name of 紫府仙人
You may find it hard to believe, but I have he's a zen-law
 

 

I did a quick search of 紫府仙人with Google and the results are interesting.  I have to put it on hold or I cannot finish the current topic，but I put a URL below in case anybody would like to know something about 紫府仙人.

http://blog.daum.net/_blog/BlogTypeView.do?blogid=0TbEu&articleno=1265&categoryId=15&regdt=20140124215912

Edited October 5, 2018 by Shubin

[dosa]

You are so smart and gifted.

[Shubin]

 

10 minutes ago, dosa said:

You are so smart and gifted.

 

I hope so , but I can not understand the five Korean characters  대도밀인가, and I tried Google and Baidu online Translate, but the results did not match 大道密印歌 at all. 

Google translate: Wheat Wheat Wheat  小麦小麦

Baidu translate: the wheat   大麦粒

Edited October 6, 2018 by Shubin

[dosa]

Ha  ha  

That is not the point.
My English is not very good yet, but I will try my best to translate English.
The archeology are very difficult. It is because it implies the content without explanation.
Everybody has different Experience, So The archeology  omit the detailed explanation. 

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by dosa

[Shubin]

13 minutes ago, dosa said:

Ha  ha  

That is not the point.
My English is not very good yet, but I will try my best to translate English.
The archeology are very difficult. It is because it implies the content without explanation.
Everybody has different Experience, So The archeology  omit the detailed explanation. 

 

 

but I still got something from the first two of the five characters, 대도: 

Google translate:  大街  (街 is 道，in Chinese）

Baidu translate: 大盗   （盗 = robber/thief） that's why Google Translate is better than Baidu

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by Shubin

[dosa]

1 minute ago, Shubin said:

 

but I still got something from 대도: 

Google translate:  大街  (街 is 道，in Chinese）

Baidu translate: 大盗   （盗 = robber/thief） that's why Google Translate is better than Baidu

 

 

大道 : Have a high aim in life 

密: The secret

印: Engrave  ex: engrave a name on a stone

歌: Recite

 

[Shubin]

1 minute ago, dosa said:

 

大道 : Have a high aim in life 

密: The secret

印: Engrave  ex: engrave a name on a stone

歌: Recite

 

 

Thanks for translating the Chinese characters for me.   I think I can understand these characters.

so in Korean, 대도밀인가 can not be translated to 大道密印歌? 

 

[dosa]

1 minute ago, Shubin said:

 

Thanks for translating the Chinese characters for me.   I think I can understand these characters.

so in Korean, 대도밀인가 can not be translated to 大道密印歌? 

 

 

큰 뜻을 품은이가 공부하는 비밀스러운 방법을 이책에 새겼다

 

This book is a very secret book that people who study Taoist.

[Shubin]

2 minutes ago, dosa said:

 

큰 뜻을 품은이가 공부하는 비밀스러운 방법을 이책에 새겼다

 

This book is a very secret book that people who study Taoist.

 

Korean is a good puzzle for me. There is no 대도 in the sentence.

[dosa]

1 minute ago, Shubin said:

 

Korean is a good puzzle for me. There is no 대도 in the sentence.

 

It doesn’t say in the text. It's just a title.

[Shubin]

my last stupid question for the day: 

If to translate 대도밀인가  into Chinese or English, what it would be? or would not be? 

(no answer could be a good answer )  

Edited October 6, 2018 by Shubin

[dosa]

19 minutes ago, Shubin said:

my last stupid question for the day: 

If to translate 대도밀인가  into Chinese or English, what it would be? or would not be? 

(no answer could be a good answer )  

 

The 대도밀인가 is only a Korean pronunciation of 大道密印歌.
大道  密   印   歌
dàdào mì  yìn   gē
대도  밀   인   가

 

大道 密印歌(대도밀인가) : This book is a very secret book that people who study Taoist.

[Shubin]

2 minutes ago, dosa said:

 

The 대도밀인가 is only a Korean pronunciation of 大道密印歌.
大道  密   印   歌
dàdào mì  yìn   gē
대도  밀   인   가

 

大道 密印歌(대도밀인가) : This book is a very secret book that people who study Taoist.

 

I got it now. Thank you so much for your detailed explanation !

At this point, I believe that 大道密印歌 is a Korean relic.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Shubin

[dosa]

2 minutes ago, Shubin said:

 

I got it now. Thank you so much for your detailed explanation !

 

[Zen Pig]

don't mean to butt in on this, because I am an old white guy living in the mountains of northern Colorado. USA, but your discussion reminded me of a great professor of animal intelligence who said,  "If a Lion could understand and speak the English language, we still would never be able to understand him".  translation is dependent on our cultural social upbringing. we stick our own words into what we think the original language meant.   We could never understand the cultural social life of a Lion, and he could never understand ours. life is magic. 

[dosa]

3 minutes ago, Zen Pig said:

don't mean to butt in on this, because I am an old white guy living in the mountains of northern Colorado. USA, but your discussion reminded me of a great professor of animal intelligence who said,  "If a Lion could understand and speak the English language, we still would never be able to understand him".  translation is dependent on our cultural social upbringing. we stick our own words into what we think the original language meant.   We could never understand the cultural social life of a Lion, and he could never understand ours. life is magic. 

 

I have never been to America in my life but I love the mountains of northern Colorado 

Thanks,

[Shubin]

13 hours ago, Zen Pig said:

don't mean to butt in on this, because I am an old white guy living in the mountains of northern Colorado. USA, but your discussion reminded me of a great professor of animal intelligence who said,  "If a Lion could understand and speak the English language, we still would never be able to understand him".  translation is dependent on our cultural social upbringing. we stick our own words into what we think the original language meant.   We could never understand the cultural social life of a Lion, and he could never understand ours. life is magic. 

 

Thanks for following our discussion, and the the words from the great professor. I see your points as well as she/his points. It seems for me that if a Lion could understand and speak English, and both sides have enough courage, patient and time on communicating，

they might be able to understand a little of other's cultural social life.   ( I am an old Asian guy living on the East Coast).

 

[Zen Pig]

yes Shubin, i tend to agree.  translation is difficult at best. it is even more difficult when colored with culture bias, or social beliefs.  but with focus, and patience, one can start to understand to more subtle nuances.