Is enlightenment or nibbana worth it?

[yuuichi]

A long time ago, I got up to the 2nd jhana while meditating, and I was quite sure I found a good way to meditate to reach nibbana (some may call this enlightenment? I don’t know). But I stopped meditating. Because I heard that when one attains nibbana or enlightenment, one no longer enjoys things or experiences pleasure. Since I am so young, it seems like nonsense to do this. Why not enjoy life’s pleasures, like watching a good movie, having a girlfriend, eating good food, etc. I still have attachment to these things, and this is what is preventing me from continuing my meditation.

 

If enlightenment frees one from greed, lust, desire, etc. How does one feel pleasure? Surely a life without pleasure (enlightenment) is not a good thing?

 

Edit: of course someone could say the usual answer of saying if there is pleasure, then there is suffering, but suffering isn’t that bad. Enlightenment seems to be defined as perfect equanimity, that is neither joy nor suffering. But doesn’t a life without joy nor suffering sound a bit boring?

 

Please serious answers only.

Edited October 9, 2018 by yuuichi

[Jetsun]

Good question. It is a pretty universal message that you will get absolutely nothing from enlightenment (as there isn't a you there to achieve it) , so really enlightenment is only for those who are done with life or gone through so much karmic existance that there is nowhere left to go , or you have run out of places to run to avoid the truth.

 

So if you enjoy life I would just enjoy it fully, forget about enlightenment, it will catch up with you in the end anyway.

[yuuichi]

I’m also 100% not a Buddhist. I don’t aggree with buddhism, I don’t agree with the Buddha in many things and i dont agree with most of what buddhism has to say. I disagree with buddhism that there is no such thing as a soul, or an ego.

 

just want to say that so no-one gets the wrong idea.

 

Quote

Forget about enlightenment until later (paraphrasing)

 

Enlightenment/nibbana can’t be that good then.

Edited October 9, 2018 by yuuichi

[yuuichi]

19 minutes ago, Jetsun said:

enlightenment is only for those who are done with life or gone through so much karmic existance that there is nowhere left to go

 

What about buddha’s brother, who was still deep in lusting for women, and preferred to chase women rather than find enlightenment? Buddha still encouraged him to find enlightenment rather than give into lust, even if that encouragement involved a little persuasion. And this assumes that achieving enlightenment causes one to escape samsara (nowhere else to go), which is not what Daoists believe.

Edited October 9, 2018 by yuuichi

[Miroku]

Honestly if you do not agree with Buddha why would you seek nirvana? Find a different path. If you do not want to get enlightened Buddhism is apparently not for you.

[yuuichi]

Quote

Honestly if you do not agree with Buddha why would you seek nirvana? Find a different path. If you do not want to get enlightened Buddhism is apparently not for you.

 

Nibbana or enlightenment is found in almost all religions, including Daoism. Daoism calls it refining the Xing spirit, or the Po soul. This causes the cessation of desire.

[Miroku]

13 minutes ago, yuuichi said:

 

Nibbana or enlightenment is found in almost all religions, including Daoism. Daoism calls it refining the Xing spirit, or the Po soul. This causes the cessation of desire.

 Yes, but again the same point. If you do not want the fruit y bother with the tree? Plus trust me before reaching anywhere near enlightenment you will have enough time for girlfriends and enjoyment. Plus one can enjoy even in an enlightened state. At least from buddhist point of view.

 

[yuuichi]

12 minutes ago, Miroku said:

Plus trust me before reaching anywhere near enlightenment you will have enough time for girlfriends and enjoyment.

 

Lust/sex resets all one’s progress and the pursuit of enlightenment requires a virtuous lifestyle. This is why celibacy is deemed as so important, and even the Buddha himself was so angry at his disciple who went back to his wife, telling him that where he put it was worse than putting it in the mouth of a snake or hot coals.

 

I want enlightenment simply because it provides peace of mind, but enlightenment seems to turn the person into a unfeeling robot or something.

 

Quote

one can enjoy even in an enlightened state.

 

How can anyone enjoy pleasure in the absence of desire? Isn’t equanimity the most you can enjoy in an enlightened state of mind?

Edited October 9, 2018 by yuuichi

[thursday]

Peace is found when we allow all things to be as they are, this is the opposite of repression of states of mind/body, AFAIK. I doubt Jhana meditation is about repression (or is it?) .. Maybe understanding of 'pleasure' needs to be redefined/refined over time?

 

It sounds like you were doing well with meditation of the specific type you do. It seems to me that you're letting some doubts hold you back from further practise. Overthinking it?

[yuuichi]

The problem is, once enlightment is reached, there is no turning back. 

 

So the temptation/attachment is to enjoy as much pleasure beforehand.

 

but when is enough, enough?

 

And if enlightenment is as good as they say, why not find it as soon as possible? 

 

It’s all a confusion.

[thursday]

I think you're overcomplicating things. Enlightenment isn't something you're going to want to turn back from if you're nearing it (and if you are, you can't 'turn back' because the destination is reached). Addiction to sensory pleasures is considered a problem, because the nature of addiction is the opposite of freedom from suffering. It doesn't mean that you can't have pleasure on your way to enlightenment or that enlightenment is absent pleasure.

 

edit: I'm guessing it's not the opposite, but addiction leads further away from freedom from suffering, at least.

Edited October 10, 2018 by thursday

[rex]

Have you seen depictions of tantric deities in yab-yum union? Do they make it look that being enlightened is a drag, dull and insipid? 

[sustainablefarm86]

,.

Edited October 18, 2018 by King Jade

[3bob]

when things do not satisfy that which is not satisfied is still looking for satisfaction in whatever way...and when a non-perishable, ever-lasting satisfaction is attained then looking for it is no longer in force. 

Edited October 9, 2018 by 3bob

[Bindi]

3 minutes ago, 3bob said:

when things do not satisfy that which is not satisfied is still looking for satisfaction in whatever way...and when a non-perishable, ever-lasting satisfaction is attained then looking for it is no longer in force. 

 

I suspect pseudo-enlightenments and attainments are satisfying enough for some if not many people, though their essence may not be truly satisfied perhaps the ego just speaks louder sometimes. Who knows how many lifetimes it might take to stay with the dissatisfied voice.  

[Gerard]

Close this thread. It should be done automatically by the mods.

 

Note: Regulate the yin & yang in your entire body-mind paradigm. This could take several decades or less if you work hard.

 

Also learn how to chop wood and carry water.

[thelerner]

I'd be happy with pseudo-enlightenment.

as long as it was gluten free 

 

Course I'm not even pseudo enlightened at the moment, but from my meetings and readings the enlightened aren't superhuman, matter of fact, to me, they seem pretty human. Less ego driven and their desires controlled to the point that they're preferences, but they'll still prefer strawberry over vanilla, and chai over coffee, pleasant and quiet over acid rock. 

 

The kundalini experience can be struck by Lightning awful, if you're not prepared.  The satori experience fleeting and not leave a permanent mark.  But Enlightenment, to me, seems like a wonderful state of flow.  Probably worth it, perhaps we'll find out. 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by thelerner

[3bob]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I suspect pseudo-enlightenments and attainments are satisfying enough for some if not many people, though their essence may not be truly satisfied perhaps the ego just speaks louder sometimes. Who knows how many lifetimes it might take to stay with the dissatisfied voice.  

 

true but who knows...and who could keep tabs?

[3bob]

liberation from rebirth still leaves a god-awful amount of stuff to do from what I've heard....

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, Gerard said:

Close this thread. It should be done automatically by the mods.

 

Note: Regulate the yin & yang in your entire body-mind paradigm. This could take several decades or less if you work hard.

 

Also learn how to chop wood and carry water.

 

It seems legitimate to ask whether a path that turns away from aspects of life as essential as sexuality and parenthood is truly spiritual. Does Buddhist enlightenment in any way suggest that life is a problem that can be solved, or that life is a cul-de-sac that can be, and should be, escaped?

 

Examining and understanding (and regulating) yin and yang shouldn't require removing oneself from normal life, though Daoists might believe it is necessary because of Buddhist influence. Is balancing yin and yang equated with enlightenment?

[Patrick Brown]

Nirvana and Enlightenment are not the same thing. Nirvana is more like a state of being whereas Enlightenment is a realisation that one is creating a repetitive narrative that is made of happiness, sorrow, fear, pain, suffering and death.   

 

You can become Enlightened and choose not to enter Nirvana and stay as a Bodhisattva who chooses to educate and help others to become Enlightened.

 

You can experience Nirvana without realising what it is or how to return to such a state and then fall back into mundane existence and consequently return to the wheel of perpetual suffering. Obviously drugs are one example of how to touch Nirvana but we know how that ends, suffering!    

 

We are constantly told (con!) that we need to be happy and this causes us to cleave to the wheel of ever changing emotion and perpetuate the thoughts that we build to define and reinforce our emotions. If we temper our emotions we begin to experience a more subtle state of being and ultimately realise that emotions hinder a more tranquil and serene state where clarity and insight are born. Once our emotions are under control we then strive to untangle our thoughts and learn to dismiss bias and errors in out thinking. With clarity and insight we deepen out experience and the self begins to fall away revealing our Buddha nature which eternally resides in a state of sublime Nirvanic bliss. 

   

[Apech]

6 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

It seems legitimate to ask whether a path that turns away from aspects of life as essential as sexuality and parenthood is truly spiritual. Does Buddhist enlightenment in any way suggest that life is a problem that can be solved, or that life is a cul-de-sac that can be, and should be, escaped?

 

Examining and understanding (and regulating) yin and yang shouldn't require removing oneself from normal life, though Daoists might believe it is necessary because of Buddhist influence. Is balancing yin and yang equated with enlightenment?

 

 

Some Buddhists have forgotten that the Buddha tried austerity and asceticism and rejected this path.  Many Daoists, especially Nei Dan practitioners do live as hermits because of the intensity of their internal practice.

 

 

[Miroku]

14 hours ago, yuuichi said:

 

Lust/sex resets all one’s progress and the pursuit of enlightenment requires a virtuous lifestyle. This is why celibacy is deemed as so important, and even the Buddha himself was so angry at his disciple who went back to his wife, telling him that where he put it was worse than putting it in the mouth of a snake or hot coals.

 

I want enlightenment simply because it provides peace of mind, but enlightenment seems to turn the person into a unfeeling robot or something.

It doesn't turn you into unfeeling robot. 

Buddha was mad because that was hinajana approach there it is almost impossible to attain enlightenment when one isn't monk. But in mahayana when one has compassion and does things with the compassionate motivation then one can even has pretty nice sex and still progress.

 

Quote

How can anyone enjoy pleasure in the absence of desire? Isn’t equanimity the most you can enjoy in an enlightened state of mind?

 

Easily. Desire isn't necessary. Sometimes you do not desire sth yet it is pleasurable. Things (thoughts, emotions, etc) still appear when you are enlightened. How do I know it? Easy. Buddha was infinetly compassionate. Compassion proves there still things arise. And you can have a joy caused by others progress and virtue. You can feel sadness and pain. The thing is it doesn't bind you because you recognize the enlightened state of mind.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Miroku

[Bindi]

50 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

Some Buddhists have forgotten that the Buddha tried austerity and asceticism and rejected this path.  Many Daoists, especially Nei Dan practitioners do live as hermits because of the intensity of their internal practice.

 

 

 

I basically don't agree with his solution to the problem of unhappiness overall, it was a solution that might have worked for him and might resonate with others, but it requires discarding too much that is valuable and basically human in this life, and I don't think it is the 'ultimate' solution. To believe in so much not existing as he did is just a philosophy after all, I don't think it is a fundamental truth.

 

Personally I prefer the idea of actualising the human potential within the body, which as I see it is developing the subtle body according to natural laws, and using what is human within us to do it, valuing what seems meaningful to us instead of dismissing it. I don't think the two approaches are compatible. 

 

[doc benway]

17 hours ago, yuuichi said:

A long time ago, I got up to the 2nd jhana while meditating, and I was quite sure I found a good way to meditate to reach nibbana (some may call this enlightenment? I don’t know). But I stopped meditating. Because I heard that when one attains nibbana or enlightenment, one no longer enjoys things or experiences pleasure.

 

Don't believe everything you hear and I would suggest to be a little less concerned with enlightenment.

It's a distraction.

 

17 hours ago, yuuichi said:

Since I am so young, it seems like nonsense to do this. Why not enjoy life’s pleasures, like watching a good movie, having a girlfriend, eating good food, etc. I still have attachment to these things, and this is what is preventing me from continuing my meditation.

 

No worries. Enjoy life to the fullest and, if it calls to you, enjoy meditation practice also.

 

17 hours ago, yuuichi said:

 

If enlightenment frees one from greed, lust, desire, etc. How does one feel pleasure?

 

Feeling pleasure has nothing to do with desire. 

Desire is the attachment to pleasure, not the experience of pleasure.

Attachment to the pleasure is what spoils it, creates the fear of losing it, creates the painful longing for it when it's not there, the need.

 

17 hours ago, yuuichi said:

Surely a life without pleasure (enlightenment) is not a good thing?

 

Agreed, there is a reason why you see realized masters and images of Buddhas laughing and thoroughly enjoying something as simple as a sip of tea or a breath of fresh air.

 

17 hours ago, yuuichi said:

 

Edit: of course someone could say the usual answer of saying if there is pleasure, then there is suffering, but suffering isn’t that bad. Enlightenment seems to be defined as perfect equanimity, that is neither joy nor suffering.

 

Equanimity is not about whether we experience joy or suffering, it is more about our response to the experience.

Can we let it move through us and allow us to remain undisturbed or do we hold on to it greedily or push it away in fear or anger.

 

17 hours ago, yuuichi said:

But doesn’t a life without joy nor suffering sound a bit boring?

 

Don't worry about being bored because you lack suffering,

Boredom does not come from realization, quite the opposite.

As one connects more deeply to the source, life becomes absolutely delightful and full of richness and freshness.

Boredom is the pining for stimulation related to a narrow focus on what we think we need.

 

17 hours ago, yuuichi said:

 

Please serious answers only.

 

I would suggest not to be too concerned with the "finish line."

Focusing on enlightenment is far more distracting than helpful.

If your life is fine as it is, live it!

 

If not, look for a practice that resonates with you and engage in it.

As you engage in the practice over time, see if there is benefit in your life.

If so, continue. If not let go and move on. This takes time to see, not a week or even a month.

 

Focusing on a conceptual model of something labeled nibbana or enlightenment is just the mind playing its games, searching for something out there somewhere that it thinks will solve its problems. You won't find that, whatever you think that is.

But there is something inside that can provide enormous support, happiness, equanimity, love, everything the mind is looking for.

And it's not at all what you think it is because it cannot be defined or captured by the moving mind.

 

Good luck in your search!

 

Disclaimer - I am not anywhere close to "enlightenment" but I do have a practice that has helped me to transform my life in tangible, important ways. As I have let go to some small degree of the three poisons (attachment, aversion, ignorance) and had some small taste of the fruits of practice, there has been no lessening of happiness or pleasure, quite the opposite. A metaphor comes to mind of a bird of prey locked in a small cage since birth with a source of processed food and water. She worries that if she were to leave the cage she would no longer have the cornmeal to eat, never knowing she is surrounded by deep woods and plains, mountains, rivers, and valleys rich with tasty animals and sights and sounds beyond her imagination.