Is enlightenment or nibbana worth it?

[Bindi]

The only point to emptiness for me is because it allows the subtle system to be filled with qi, and then seeing what develops from there. From the Neiye (403-221 BCE, and even considered by some scholars to pre-date the Tao te ching):

 

有 神 自 在 身 There exists a spirit naturally located in the self –

一 往 一 來 One moment it goes, one moment it arrives;

莫 之 能 思 There is no one who can contemplate it.

失 之 必 亂 Lose it and you will certainly be confused,

得 之 必 治 Attain it and you will certainly be regulated.

敬 除 其 舍 Respectfully empty its dwelling ,

精 將 自 來 And essence will naturally arrive.

精 想 思 之 This essence – consider it and contemplate it,

寧 念 治 之 Rather than study ways to regulate it.

嚴 容 畏 敬 Keeping a serious appearance, and an attitude of awe and respect,

精 將 至 定 Essence will arrive and settle.

得 之 而 勿 捨 When you attain it and never let go of it,

耳 目 不 淫 Your ears and eyes will be restrained,

心 無 他 圖 Your heart/mind will have no other plans

 

Your reference states that "attaining the state of emptiness requires closing the openings", but again there is this possibility of going beyond this, when full of qi "the nine bodily openings are then open [to the flow of Qi]."

 

精 存 自 生 Where essence exists, there is naturally life –

其 外 安 榮 Outside you, calmness flourishes;

內 藏 以 為 泉 原 It collects inside you, thus acting as a primal spring.

浩 然 和 平 Like a vast lake, it is harmonious and equable.

以 為 氣 淵 It thus becomes a fountainhead of Qi.

淵 之 不 涸 As long as the fountainhead does not dry up,

四 體 乃 固 The four limbs are then strong.

泉 之 不 竭 When the spring is not used up,

九 竅 遂 通 The nine bodily openings are then open [to the flow of Qi].

乃 能 窮 天 地 Then you can span the limits of heaven and earth,

被 四 海 And cover the four seas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2018 by Bindi

[3bob]

"May all beings be happy"  is a very fine saying with nothing in it to reject.

[Everything]

4 minutes ago, 3bob said:

"May all beings be happy"  is a very fine saying with nothing in it to reject.

And can you now be happy?

Do you believe that it is enough to hear this. And now become happy. Because someone said it. And they felt happy in saying it and now they want to share that happiness with everyone. Can you now realize that you can be happy too then? That you can too become happy and then you too can want everyone to be happy like you are. Do you believe you have the ability to be happy?

Edited October 12, 2018 by Everything

[Apech]

6 hours ago, Bindi said:

The only point to emptiness for me is because it allows the subtle system to be filled with qi, and then seeing what develops from there. From the Neiye (403-221 BCE, and even considered by some scholars to pre-date the Tao te ching):

 

有 神 自 在 身 There exists a spirit naturally located in the self –

一 往 一 來 One moment it goes, one moment it arrives;

莫 之 能 思 There is no one who can contemplate it.

失 之 必 亂 Lose it and you will certainly be confused,

得 之 必 治 Attain it and you will certainly be regulated.

敬 除 其 舍 Respectfully empty its dwelling ,

精 將 自 來 And essence will naturally arrive.

精 想 思 之 This essence – consider it and contemplate it,

寧 念 治 之 Rather than study ways to regulate it.

嚴 容 畏 敬 Keeping a serious appearance, and an attitude of awe and respect,

精 將 至 定 Essence will arrive and settle.

得 之 而 勿 捨 When you attain it and never let go of it,

耳 目 不 淫 Your ears and eyes will be restrained,

心 無 他 圖 Your heart/mind will have no other plans

 

Your reference states that "attaining the state of emptiness requires closing the openings", but again there is this possibility of going beyond this, when full of qi "the nine bodily openings are then open [to the flow of Qi]."

 

精 存 自 生 Where essence exists, there is naturally life –

其 外 安 榮 Outside you, calmness flourishes;

內 藏 以 為 泉 原 It collects inside you, thus acting as a primal spring.

浩 然 和 平 Like a vast lake, it is harmonious and equable.

以 為 氣 淵 It thus becomes a fountainhead of Qi.

淵 之 不 涸 As long as the fountainhead does not dry up,

四 體 乃 固 The four limbs are then strong.

泉 之 不 竭 When the spring is not used up,

九 竅 遂 通 The nine bodily openings are then open [to the flow of Qi].

乃 能 窮 天 地 Then you can span the limits of heaven and earth,

被 四 海 And cover the four seas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is a different use of the word emptiness - as in the cup is empty so there is space inside.  The Neiye deals with the normal jing-qi-shen process and not the alchemical process.  The medicine of the alchemical process is formed by uniting Xing, Ming and Yuan Xi, while the natural energy is the jing-qi-shen for health and longevity.  Xing (nature - thru quiescence to emptiness/non-being) and Ming (life, energy, destiny) are united thru YuanXi (the primordial breath).  This is equivalent to the Buddhist tantra idea of uniting emptiness and luminosity, or citta and prana ... or indeed wisdom and compassion.

 

Not posting any more on this thread.

[3bob]

5 hours ago, Everything said:

And can you now be happy?

Do you believe that it is enough to hear this. And now become happy. Because someone said it. And they felt happy in saying it and now they want to share that happiness with everyone. Can you now realize that you can be happy too then? That you can too become happy and then you too can want everyone to be happy like you are. Do you believe you have the ability to be happy?

 

if the sun shines is there light?

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

That is a different use of the word emptiness - as in the cup is empty so there is space inside.  The Neiye deals with the normal jing-qi-shen process and not the alchemical process.  The medicine of the alchemical process is formed by uniting Xing, Ming and Yuan Xi, while the natural energy is the jing-qi-shen for health and longevity.  Xing (nature - thru quiescence to emptiness/non-being) and Ming (life, energy, destiny) are united thru YuanXi (the primordial breath).  This is equivalent to the Buddhist tantra idea of uniting emptiness and luminosity, or citta and prana ... or indeed wisdom and compassion.

 

Not posting any more on this thread.

 

If you are saying the Neiye only deals with natural energy related to  health and longevity, it's hard to explain why it then claims that with this energy...

乃 能 窮 天 地 Then you can span the limits of heaven and earth,

被 四 海 And cover the four seas.

 

I have yet to see anyone on this forum discussing qi as referred to in the Neiye and as shown in the Neijing Tu, as an endless flow of water developed in the lower dantian and brought upwards to the head area to pool there. But if managing this isn't discussed in complicated ways then it is just a lesser achievement related to health and longevity?

 

The Neiye is simple, it says to "Expand your heart/mind and free it", and develop your qi to be 'magnanimous and vast', when this is accomplished the rest should just fall into place naturally anyway.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2018 by Bindi

[3bob]

 a note about certain differences: for those of us who have not walked the Buddhist path there is only surface stuff that we can know about it,  and for those of us that have not walked the Vedic path there is also only surface stuff we can know about it,  thus while we are walking whatever path there is nothing to be gained by stopping where we are to start chucking assumptions or boulders over to other paths - that is if we are to move ahead on ours.  Granted if assumptions or boulders are flying either way then either party has the right to  defend itself with corrections and  expressions about itself.  

[Patrick Brown]

I have to agree with 3bob as mixing systems up or trying to compare them often ends in chaos. I used to use a standard occult model (Theosophy) but now I just work with my own more abstract way using elements of Tibetan Buddhism, Daoism (Dao Te Ching) and a sprinkling of Occultism and that's me on my way!  

[doc benway]

This quote seems apropos:

 

All the various types of teachings and spiritual paths are related to the different capacities of understanding that different individuals have.

There does not exist, from an absolute point of view, any teaching which is more perfect or effective than another.

A teaching’s value lies solely in the inner awakening which an individual can arrive at through it. If a person benefits from a given teaching, for that person that teaching is the supreme path, because it is suited to his or her nature and capacities.

There’s no sense in trying to judge it as more or less elevated in relation to other paths to realization.

~ Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

 

 

 

 

 

[idiot_stimpy]

The only thing that doesn't want enlightenment is your attachments/ego

[Marblehead]

Especially the ego.  I know all about that.

 

[Everything]

On 12-10-2018 at 11:04 AM, 3bob said:

 

if the sun shines is there light?

Good morning! 

 

For me personally, I am getting more used to the sun. I am beginning a wonderful new journey. I am very eager to experience where this will bring me. I know the best of life is a possibility that is always there for me. So many things are always happening, and so many good things are always happening, I can experience so many good things. All I have to do is keep an open mind. And I can feel my way to the best that life has to offer. Never say never.

[Marblehead]

Be careful with that "never say never" though.

 

[Everything]

9 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Be careful with that "never say never" though.

 

I mean yeah, never is a bad word. When my grandmother created the earth, she grew Olive trees, green olives, and Never trees, black olives. She said to my father, "Son, don't ever eat from the never tree, those olives are salty." My father, ofcourse, ate those black olives. He got so thirsty he drank the entire ocean, and peed it back out. That is why the ocean is so salty nowadays...

 

I'm just fking messing around 

 

No you're right, don't ever got over confident. I will always remain humble and the opposite word of ignorant whatever that word is, I forgot it. Payattentionant 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Everything

[Marblehead]

Hehehe.  On a recent science documentary one of the guys said, "Remember, when you drink that glass of water you are drinking comet juice."

 

Remaining humble is hard to do.  I fail at that all the time.  And yes, the word is wisdom.