Differences between Daoist and Buddhist understanding of emptiness

[Bindi]

[The Quanzhen master and founder] Wang Zhe’s own writings refer to two men – one Taoist and one Buddhist – who appear to have given him some guidance... [He] appears to have been particularly familiar with two major Mahayana Buddhist scriptures – the Diamond Sutra and the Heart Sutra. He was probably also familiar with some Chan literature... However, as Hachiya has astutely observed, Wang Zhe did not abide by the thoroughgoing negation and non-assertion of Mahayana Buddhist philosophy. Fond as he was of borrowing Buddhist language to preach detachment from this provisional, fleeting world of samsara, Wang Zhe ardently believed in the eternal, universal Real Nature/Radiant Spirit that is the ground and wellspring of consciousness (spirit, shen, xing), and vitality (qi, ming) within all living beings. This to him was not “empty”(lacking inherent existence); it was fully Real (zhen).

 

From The Teachings and Practices of the Early Quanzhen Taoist Masters by Stephen Eskildsen (pages 6-7)

[Michael Sternbach]

Hi Bindi

 

Here is how I look at this topic:

 

Daoist emptiness refers to original emptiness before creation began. Buddhist emptiness refers to emptiness as it exists within creation. The two are one, as after all, those polarities that original emptiness split up into cancel one another out.

 

This is symbolized by Wu chi turning into Tai chi, but the latter is still contained within the original circle of the former. So Buddhism aspires to look beyond the apparent duality and recognize their underlying unity (thus emptiness) - which never really ceased to exist.

[Bindi]

10 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Hi Bindi

 

Here is how I look at this topic:

 

Daoist emptiness refers to original emptiness before creation began.

 

 

Before creation began there was Hundun, "primordial and central chaos in Chinese cosmogony", the "cosmogonic chaos before the emergence of form".  If this is posited as the primordial state, the return is to formless chaos, not emptiness. 

 

10 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Buddhist emptiness refers to emptiness as it exists within creation. The two are one, as after all, those polarities that original emptiness split up into cancel one another out.

 

This is symbolized by Wu chi turning into Tai chi, but the latter is still contained within the original circle of the former. So Buddhism aspires to look beyond the apparent duality and recognize their underlying unity (thus emptiness) - which never really ceased to exist.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

5 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Before creation began there was Hundun, "primordial and central chaos in Chinese cosmogony", the "cosmogonic chaos before the emergence of form".  If this is posited as the primordial state, the return is to formless chaos, not emptiness. 

 

 

 

Interestingly, the two are closely associated with each other. And it is not only the co-existence of Wu chi with Hundun in Chinese natural philosophy that seems to speak to this...

 

In Genesis 1, 2 we read: "Now the earth was formless and empty ... "

 

According to Greek conception, there once was a primordial chaos, in which the elements were not really separated from each other yet, but existed in a state of turmoil and constant mutual cancellation.

 

And even in quantum physics, the vacuum has been found to actually be boiling with the ceaseless activity of particle/anti-particle couples popping into existence and annihilating each other again in the blink of an eye.

 

So there is no contradiction to the view I proposed to be found there, IMO.

[Bindi]

27 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Interestingly, the two are closely associated with each other. And it is not only the co-existence of Wu chi with Hundun in Chinese natural philosophy that seems to speak to this...

 

In Genesis 1, 2 we read: "Now the earth was formless and empty ... "

 

According to Greek conception, there once was a primordial chaos, in which the elements were not really separated from each other yet, but existed in a state of turmoil and constant mutual cancellation.

 

And even in quantum physics, the vacuum has been found to actually be boiling with the ceaseless activity of particle/anti-particle couples popping into existence and annihilating each other again in the blink of an eye.

 

So there is no contradiction to the view I proposed to be found there, IMO.

 

Is it reasonable to say that primordial chaos which contains unseparated elements, or vacuums which have particles popping into existence like a boiling sea, are actually empty? I don't see this word empty as even remotely suitable, the understanding of 'vacuum' needs to be reconsidered in light of quantum physics, and why confuse primordial chaos with emptiness? How can chaos ever be empty? 

 

The alternative is that these are in fact two different concepts, formless chaos vs emptiness, which underscore two different philosophies.

 

Re Genesis  Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. This seems to refer to the planet earth, which was clearly in existence, and covered in water, it seems to be a creation story about a much later period than the Daoist and Greek offerings.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by Bindi

[Michael Sternbach]

47 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Is it reasonable to say that primordial chaos which contains unseparated elements, or vacuums which have particles popping into existence like a boiling sea, are actually empty? I don't see this word empty as even remotely suitable, the understanding of 'vacuum' needs to be reconsidered in light of quantum physics, and why confuse primordial chaos with emptiness? How can chaos ever be empty? 

 

What if a state of primordial chaos is actually as empty as it gets?

 

47 minutes ago, Bindi said:

The alternative is that these are in fact two different concepts, formless chaos vs emptiness, which underscore two different philosophies.

 

I doubt it. There just does not seem to be emptiness that wouldn't be seething with potential, neither in physics nor in metaphysics. Maybe it is our notion of emptiness (as commonly understood) that needs to be reconsidered then - like it or not.

 

Physicists drew this inevitable conclusion long ago. Maybe it's time that we 'metaphysicists' catch up?

 

In fact, I believe that DDJ ch. 21 refers to this fathomless state of 'non-being' as well:

 

"Tao, considered as an entity, is obscure and vague. 
Vague and obscure! 
Yet within it there is Form. 
Obscure and vague! 
Yet within it there is Substance. 
Vacuous and unfathomable! 
Yet within it there is Quintessential Energy—and this is supremely real."

 

47 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Re Genesis  Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. This seems to refer to the planet earth, which was clearly in existence, and covered in water, it seems to be a creation story about a much later period than the Daoist and Greek offerings.

 

Well, for me, the term 'waters' here invokes something like amniotic fluid. At any rate, something that suggests a state of pre-existence. And what happens next?

 

"And God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness."

 

So now Logos comes into play... And God separates the previously intermingled forces from one another!

 

That sounds really close to both the aforementioned Greek conception as well as to the Chinese conception (from Wu chi to Tai chi), don't you think?

 

 

[Bindi]

It's not ideal, but this is the wikipedia definition of Taoist and Buddhist emptiness:

 

Taoism

In Taoism, attaining a state of emptiness is viewed as a state of stillness and placidity which is the "mirror of the universe" and the "pure mind".^[23] The Tao Te Ching claims that emptiness is related to the "Tao, the Great Principle, the Creator and Sustainer of everything in the universe". It is argued that it is the "state of mind of the Taoist disciple who follows the Tao", who has successfully emptied the mind "of all wishes and ideas not fitted with the Tao's Movement". For a person who attains a state of emptiness, the "still mind of the sage is the mirror of heaven and earth, the glass of all things", a state of "vacancy, stillness, placidity, tastelessness, quietude, silence, and non-action" which is the "perfection of the Tao and its characteristics, the "mirror of the universe" and the "pure mind".^[23] 

 

Buddhism

The Buddhist term emptiness (Skt. śūnyatā) refers specifically to the idea that everything is dependently originated, including the causes and conditions themselves, and even the principle of causality itself. It is not nihilism, nor is it meditating on nothingness.^[18] Instead, it refers to the absence (emptiness) of inherent existence. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emptiness

[Bindi]

20 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

What if a state of primordial chaos is actually as empty as it gets?

 

 

I doubt it. There just does not seem to be emptiness that wouldn't be seething with potential, neither in physics nor in metaphysics. Maybe it is our notion of emptiness (as commonly understood) that needs to be reconsidered then - like it or not.

 

Physicists drew this inevitable conclusion long ago. Maybe it's time that we 'metaphysicists' catch up?

 

Apparently in the right circumstances light can even be created from a vacuum...

 

Scientists at Chalmers University of Technology have succeeded in creating light from vacuum – observing an effect first predicted over 40 years ago. The results will be published tomorrow (Wednesday) in the journal Nature. In an innovative experiment, the scientists have managed to capture some of the photons that are constantly appearing and disappearing in the vacuum.

 

The experiment is based on one of the most counterintuitive, yet, one of the most important principles in quantum mechanics: that vacuum is by no means empty nothingness. In fact, the vacuum is full of various particles that are continuously fluctuating in and out of existence. They appear, exist for a brief moment and then disappear again. Since their existence is so fleeting, they are usually referred to as virtual particles.

Chalmers scientist, Christopher Wilson and his co-workers have succeeded in getting photons to leave their virtual state and become real photons, i.e. measurable light. The physicist Moore predicted way back in 1970 that this should happen if the virtual photons are allowed to bounce off a mirror that is moving at a speed that is almost as high as the speed of light. The phenomenon, known as the dynamical Casimir effect, has now been observed for the first time in a brilliant experiment conducted by the Chalmers scientists.

https://phys.org/news/2011-11-scientists-vacuum.html

 

 

Quote

In fact, I believe that DDJ ch. 21 refers to this fathomless state of 'non-being' as well:

 

"Tao, considered as an entity, is obscure and vague. 
Vague and obscure! 
Yet within it there is Form. 
Obscure and vague! 
Yet within it there is Substance. 
Vacuous and unfathomable! 
Yet within it there is Quintessential Energy—and this is supremely real."

 

This last line especially seems to be a brilliant description of a vacuum. So how did early Daoists get this, was it just a fluke that they got it right, or did they know first hand somehow?

 

Quote

 

Well, for me, the term 'waters' here invokes something like amniotic fluid. At any rate, something that suggests a state of pre-existence. And what happens next?

 

"And God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness."

 

Light may be tied up with it all, sure. But I don't know how much Chinese and Greek conceptions refer to light, I've not looked into this. 

 

Quote

 

 

Quote

So now Logos comes into play... And God separates the previously intermingled forces from one another!

 

That sounds really close to both the aforementioned Greek conception as well as to the Chinese conception (from Wu chi to Tai chi), don't you think?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2018 by Bindi

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, Wuschel said:

 

"As above, so below."

 

If this is true, then it suggests that some early Daoist penetrated into the very heart of reality within him or herself, and shared that knowledge. 

[Michael Sternbach]

16 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Apparently in the right circumstances light can even be created from a vacuum...

 

Scientists at Chalmers University of Technology have succeeded in creating light from vacuum – observing an effect first predicted over 40 years ago. The results will be published tomorrow (Wednesday) in the journal Nature. In an innovative experiment, the scientists have managed to capture some of the photons that are constantly appearing and disappearing in the vacuum.

 

The experiment is based on one of the most counterintuitive, yet, one of the most important principles in quantum mechanics: that vacuum is by no means empty nothingness. In fact, the vacuum is full of various particles that are continuously fluctuating in and out of existence. They appear, exist for a brief moment and then disappear again. Since their existence is so fleeting, they are usually referred to as virtual particles.

Chalmers scientist, Christopher Wilson and his co-workers have succeeded in getting photons to leave their virtual state and become real photons, i.e. measurable light. The physicist Moore predicted way back in 1970 that this should happen if the virtual photons are allowed to bounce off a mirror that is moving at a speed that is almost as high as the speed of light. The phenomenon, known as the dynamical Casimir effect, has now been observed for the first time in a brilliant experiment conducted by the Chalmers scientists.

https://phys.org/news/2011-11-scientists-vacuum.html

 

Another example for virtual particles turning into real ones would be the case in which a pair of the former manifests from the vacuum right at a black hole's event horizon in a fashion that one of them escapes while the other one gets sucked in even before they had a chance to reunite and annihilate each other back into the nothingness they came from. According to spooky quantum logic, since one of them now flies off with real, positive mass, in order to keep energy conversation intact, the other one (the one that gets sucked into the BH) must get a negative mass, which means it will actually subtract a minute - but real - amount  of mass from the Black Hole! Which is in turn the reason why a Black Hole that runs out of a constant supply of matter is expected to evaporate over (extremely long) time.

 

Quote

This last line especially seems to be a brilliant description of a vacuum. So how did early Daoists get this, was it just a fluke that they got it right, or did they know first hand somehow?

 

I believe that their meditation revealed the nature of the universe to them directly (without the necessity for complex theories). Moreover, it did so not limited to the physical plane alone, but on multiple levels (as per Wuschel's comment).

 

Quote

Light may be tied up with it all, sure. But I don't know how much Chinese and Greek conceptions refer to light, I've not looked into this. 

 

What comes to mind here is the Kabbalah according to which at the origin and 'behind the scene' of manifest reality, there is an ocean of infinite light (ain soph aur), which is also commonly referred to as a zone of 'negative existence' (emptiness).

[exorcist_1699]

On 2018/10/22 at 11:59 PM, Taoist Texts said:

Thanks. i vaguely remember something like this in WLP writings, wanted to make sure.

 

In Taoist history, there are two famous Buddhist monk turned masters, one is South school's 3rd patriarch  Xue dao-guang ,  another one is  Wu-Liu school's  master Liu hua-yang, both were enlightened but at the bottom of their heart, they sensed  something still  missing, which in fact, is some extra step after enlightenment...; Xue mentioned  such pursue  in the prologue of his writing: " 還丹復命篇"  . Liu mentioned it in the prologue of his famous writing: " 慧命經" .

Edited November 15, 2018 by exorcist_1699

[exorcist_1699]

Although modern physicist interpretation of emptiness is fascinating, I am more  eager to know what  practical way enables us to get the  "天地至精" (  "  ultimate jing of the universe" ) hidden in emptiness ,which  is said to be the "medicine for everlasting life".

 

Some hint from  Taoist alchemical classics " Can Tong Qi"  is :

 

"同類易施工兮 , 非種難為巧" 

 

"If they are the same kind, then we can get effect from them easily ; otherwise,  it will be very difficult "

 

If we interpret it from  Taoist yin-yang school's (陰陽派)  theory,  it means  : " it  is because we get qi from another human's body , despite from  the opposite gender's , that makes our practice effective ".

 

However,  if we interpret it from Taoist primordial  school's (先天派) viewpoint, it is because that ubiquitous ,featureless emptiness  gets the same character , ie, no character , as the emptied Mind ( although  encased in a physical casing , our skull ) that makes their interaction likely be productive . 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by exorcist_1699

[Marblehead]

Emptiness is very useful, for example, the empty space in the wall for the door.

 

[doc benway]

On 11/10/2018 at 5:50 AM, Marblehead said:

Emptiness is very useful, for example, the empty space in the wall for the door.

 

 

Equally useful is the empty space that allows the presence of the wall

[Marblehead]

5 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Equally useful is the empty space that allows the presence of the wall

And I'm going to finish building that wall.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

On 10/11/2018 at 11:42 AM, exorcist_1699 said:

Although modern physicist interpretation of emptiness is fascinating, I am more  eager to know what  practical way enables us to get the  "天地至精" (  "  ultimate jing of the universe" ) hidden in emptiness ,which  is said to be the "medicine for everlasting life".

 

(...) 

 

Not to mention that it's highly probable that a medicine for everlasting life doesn't exist at all outside of the minds of certain chinese philosophers.

Many lives have been wasted looking for something that cannot be found. 

[silent thunder]

Hmm, interesting thought in line with the placebo effect, perhaps it's not what the medicines are made of that convey efficacy, but the true alchemical medicine exists in the mind and the medicine is an allegory for the mind, a symbol for the process of change.  If the individual is utterly saturated in this notion of the efficacy of the medicine, whatever form it takes is then effective and if one is not, no medicine would bring about alchemical change.  Might not be the physical medicine at all, but the mind.  Many lineages perceive that the universe and reality is all mind.  The thoughts, the medicine, the body the medicine effects...

 

Hence why the same alchemical processes worked on some individuals within lineages and not others...

Edited November 14, 2018 by silent thunder

[Marblehead]

Like mind over matter?

 

[Bindi]

36 minutes ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

Not to mention that it's highly probable that a medicine for everlasting life doesn't exist at all outside of the minds of certain chinese philosophers.

Many lives have been wasted looking for something that cannot be found. 

 

There is a lot within the Chinese way of thinking that is so resonant with what I have found following my own way, I can't help thinking their philosophy is as near to the truth as possible in many details. This includes the possibility of a medicine for everlasting life, which is as an immortal spirit of course, not as a flesh and blood person. 

 

[silent thunder]

30 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Like mind over matter?

 

yup... or mind is matter.

 

Wherever I touch my body, or a bodily sensation arises, my mind is aware.  This gives rise to the question, is there a functional difference between the matter of my body and my mind.  Seems it could be an example of Dao in motion.  Two seemingly disparate processes that are in actuality, facets of one gem, aspects of one unified flowing process.

[doc benway]

On 11/6/2018 at 11:15 PM, Bindi said:

It's not ideal, but this is the wikipedia definition of Taoist and Buddhist emptiness:

 

Taoism

In Taoism, attaining a state of emptiness is viewed as a state of stillness and placidity which is the "mirror of the universe" and the "pure mind".^[23] The Tao Te Ching claims that emptiness is related to the "Tao, the Great Principle, the Creator and Sustainer of everything in the universe". It is argued that it is the "state of mind of the Taoist disciple who follows the Tao", who has successfully emptied the mind "of all wishes and ideas not fitted with the Tao's Movement". For a person who attains a state of emptiness, the "still mind of the sage is the mirror of heaven and earth, the glass of all things", a state of "vacancy, stillness, placidity, tastelessness, quietude, silence, and non-action" which is the "perfection of the Tao and its characteristics, the "mirror of the universe" and the "pure mind".^[23] 

 

Buddhism

The Buddhist term emptiness (Skt. śūnyatā) refers specifically to the idea that everything is dependently originated, including the causes and conditions themselves, and even the principle of causality itself. It is not nihilism, nor is it meditating on nothingness.^[18] Instead, it refers to the absence (emptiness) of inherent existence. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emptiness

 

If you take the Buddhist definition above and apply it to the individual practitioner, emptiness of self, it's pretty similar to the Taoist definition above.

At the end of the day, the emptiness of the individual is what matters.

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, steve said:

 

If you take the Buddhist definition above and apply it to the individual practitioner, emptiness of self, it's pretty similar to the Taoist definition above.

At the end of the day, the emptiness of the individual is what matters.

 

If the aim of Taoist emptiness is the generation of an immortal spirit, would this contradict Buddhist emptiness? Granted not all modern Taoists, I imagine especially Western Taoists, would see the generation of an immortal spirit as the aim of emptiness, but I think it could be argued that historically this was the aim, as I attempted to demonstrate in a previous post 

 

[Marblehead]

10 hours ago, steve said:

At the end of the day, the emptiness of the individual is what matters.

I have been told that I am full of it.

 

[doc benway]

16 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

If the aim of Taoist emptiness is the generation of an immortal spirit, would this contradict Buddhist emptiness?

 

No, not in my opinion.

 

The implied contradiction is simply the conceptual mind wrestling with its inability to grasp emptiness.

Constructs like "immortal spirit" and sundry Buddhist definitions of emptiness are simply conceptual projections.

A direct realization of emptiness allows one to reconcile the different paradigms quite easily.

 

 

 

 

16 hours ago, Bindi said:

 Granted not all modern Taoists, I imagine especially Western Taoists, would see the generation of an immortal spirit as the aim of emptiness, but I think it could be argued that historically this was the aim, as I attempted to demonstrate in a previous post 

 

 

 

 

[KuroShiro]

On 11/7/2018 at 4:15 AM, Bindi said:

It's not ideal, but this is the wikipedia definition of Taoist and Buddhist emptiness:

 

Taoism

In Taoism, attaining a state of emptiness is viewed as a state of stillness and placidity which is the "mirror of the universe" and the "pure mind".^[23] The Tao Te Ching claims that emptiness is related to the "Tao, the Great Principle, the Creator and Sustainer of everything in the universe". It is argued that it is the "state of mind of the Taoist disciple who follows the Tao", who has successfully emptied the mind "of all wishes and ideas not fitted with the Tao's Movement". For a person who attains a state of emptiness, the "still mind of the sage is the mirror of heaven and earth, the glass of all things", a state of "vacancy, stillness, placidity, tastelessness, quietude, silence, and non-action" which is the "perfection of the Tao and its characteristics, the "mirror of the universe" and the "pure mind".^[23] 

 

Buddhism

The Buddhist term emptiness (Skt. śūnyatā) refers specifically to the idea that everything is dependently originated, including the causes and conditions themselves, and even the principle of causality itself. It is not nihilism, nor is it meditating on nothingness.^[18] Instead, it refers to the absence (emptiness) of inherent existence. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emptiness

 

If you are talking about Sunyata and Wu Ji, Taoist Texts confirmed in another thread that they are the same.