Differences between Daoist and Buddhist understanding of emptiness

[dawei]

On 11/6/2018 at 8:42 PM, Wuschel said:

Buddhist emptiness refers to spirit, 

daoist emptiness to energy in primordial state. 

 

I tend to agree here.

 

First focuses on  life; latter focus on pre-life.

[Michael Sternbach]

5 hours ago, dawei said:

 

I tend to agree here.

 

First focuses on  life; latter focus on pre-life.

 

I would call the former explicit emptiness, the latter implicit emptiness.

[Apech]

On 11/15/2018 at 11:26 PM, dawei said:

 

I tend to agree here.

 

First focuses on  life; latter focus on pre-life.

 

I think that 'pre-life' and 'life' are ok as terms (a bit like Early Heaven and Later heaven) - as long as 'pre' doesn't mean temporality.  I don't think it is about a serial development e.g. out of pre-life comes life.

 

i think some the problem with Buddhist emptiness is because it comes from Nagarjuna who was specifically refuting proposed first substances or fundamental realities proposed by others.  So it has this negative tinge in the sense that it effectively refutes other views without providing an alternative.  That is what the Prasangika Madhyamika does but this is not true of Yogacara and Great Madhyamaka of course.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by Apech

[rideforever]

Emptiness in India simply means the activation of Consciousness in the head.   This then removes you from the thought stream.   It is empty ... of the thought stream.   However if you are intelligent you will simply see that you are in a higher body and this is the mind of the higher body, it's not empty.

 

Daoism is concerned with the Dantien and the enlightenment of Dantien which is quite different, it happens down beneath the belly and is difficult to describe but you could say it is a state of the realisation of the abyss of energy absolute surrender and absolute death.

[Michael Sternbach]

6 hours ago, rideforever said:

Emptiness in India simply means the activation of Consciousness in the head.   This then removes you from the thought stream.   It is empty ... of the thought stream.   However if you are intelligent you will simply see that you are in a higher body and this is the mind of the higher body, it's not empty.

 

Well, to some degree, the meaning of the term in India seems to be coloured the specific school we are looking at. Quoting the Wikipedia article on Śūnyatā:

 

Many of the

 early Buddhist schools featured sunyata as an important part of their teachings.

The Sarvastivadin school's Abhidharma texts like the Dharmaskandhapāda Śāstra, and the later Mahāvibhāṣa also take up the theme of emptiness vis a vis dependent origination as found in the Agamas.^[23]

Schools such as the MahāsāṃghikaPrajñaptivādins as well as many of the Sthavira schools (except the Pudgalavada) held that all dharmas were empty (dharma śūnyatā).^[23] This can be seen in the early Theravada Abhidhamma texts such as the Patisambhidamagga which also speak of the emptiness of the five aggregates and of svabhava as being "empty of essential nature".^[24] The Theravada Kathavatthu also argues against the idea that emptiness is unconditioned.^[25]

One of the main themes of Harivarman's Tattvasiddhi-Śāstra (3rd-4th century) is dharma-śūnyatā, the emptiness of phenomena.^[26]

 

6 hours ago, rideforever said:

Daoism is concerned with the Dantien and the enlightenment of Dantien which is quite different, it happens down beneath the belly and is difficult to describe but you could say it is a state of the realisation of the abyss of energy absolute surrender and absolute death.

 

Enlightenment via the LDT is most definitely central to Zen Buddhism, at any rate. However, Zen/Chan was influenced by Daoism some time after its foundation in the Shaolin temple by Bodhidharma, and it could be debated if aforementioned emphasis was already part of its original Indian form Dhyana. Although Daisetz Suzuki certainly brought forth some arguments in support of an essentially unbroken tradition.

[Bindi]

11 hours ago, rideforever said:

Emptiness in India simply means the activation of Consciousness in the head.   This then removes you from the thought stream.   It is empty ... of the thought stream.   However if you are intelligent you will simply see that you are in a higher body and this is the mind of the higher body, it's not empty.

 

Daoism is concerned with the Dantien and the enlightenment of Dantien which is quite different, it happens down beneath the belly and is difficult to describe but you could say it is a state of the realisation of the abyss of energy absolute surrender and absolute death.

 

What about enlightenment of the three dantians? Starting with the lower dantian. 

[Bindi]

On 16/11/2018 at 5:27 AM, steve said:

 

No, not in my opinion.

 

The implied contradiction is simply the conceptual mind wrestling with its inability to grasp emptiness.

Constructs like "immortal spirit" and sundry Buddhist definitions of emptiness are simply conceptual projections.

A direct realization of emptiness allows one to reconcile the different paradigms quite easily.

 

 

 

"Typically, Zen practitioners throughout history have aimed to return to Emptiness; Taoist practitioners have aimed to become Immortals. Returning to Emptiness is transcendental, whereas becoming an Immortal is still phenomenal."

[Michael Sternbach]

34 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

"Typically, Zen practitioners throughout history have aimed to return to Emptiness; Taoist practitioners have aimed to become Immortals. Returning to Emptiness is transcendental, whereas becoming an Immortal is still phenomenal."

 

While its practitioners do seek a state of transcendence, Zen is quite different from some other schools whose aim seems to be deliverance from the world of phenomena.

 

More along the lines of William Blake:

 

Quote

To see a World in a Grain of Sand 

And a Heaven in a Wild Flower 

Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand 
And Eternity in an hour

 

Edited November 16, 2018 by Michael Sternbach

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

What about enlightenment of the three dantians? Starting with the lower dantian. 

 

Zen meditation indeed involves the correct posture to activate all dantians, and some say it leads to a naturally occurring MCO. Even though emphasis remains on the LDT, in practice.

[Michael Sternbach]

And since the essence of Being is to be grasped in the Here and Now, becoming an Immortal would be of no consequence according to the understanding of Zen.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Michael Sternbach

[Bindi]

17 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

And since the essence of Being is to be grasped in the Here and Now, becoming an Immortal would be of no consequence according to the understanding of Zen.

 

Agreed.

[Bindi]

On 16/11/2018 at 6:59 AM, KuroShiro said:

 

If you are talking about Sunyata and Wu Ji, Taoist Texts confirmed in another thread that they are the same.

 

 

Is the aim for primordial qi/wind to flow freely through wuji/hundun?

[KuroShiro]

Sunyata and Wu Ji have to be "reached/lived(?)" to be understood and perhaps there is the possibility that 2 people will have slightly different understandings?

Taoist Texts said that "Broadly speaking yes. Sunyata, Wuji is the place where Nibbana is."

I don't know if Nibbana is the end level.

 

10 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Is the aim for primordial qi/wind to flow freely through wuji/hundun?

 

You're not asking me right? I know nothing.

 

If someone has some insights regarding this and could please share them that would be great.

[doc benway]

15 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

"Typically, Zen practitioners throughout history have aimed to return to Emptiness; Taoist practitioners have aimed to become Immortals. Returning to Emptiness is transcendental, whereas becoming an Immortal is still phenomenal."

 

I question the opinions of historians and scholars regarding the objectives of spiritual practice, and suggest everyone does the same! They use words like immortal vs emptiness, as if they were pointing in different directions, having defined those words conceptually but not having had the realization themselves. They have no frame of reference to have credibility.

We're talking about the results of spiritual practice.

That is best learned from a master or practitioner.

 

Practitioners are aimed at following the instructions of their discipline, being fully open to whatever manifests as the experience and results of their practice, and are generally discouraged from being focused on a conceptual fabrication of the endgame. Both Daoist and Buddhist masters are cautious not to bias their students, at least that's been my personal experience. It is a very personal and experiential matter.

 

Nevertheless, did you know that immortality is a quality of emptiness in the Dzogchen tantras?

Conversely, emptiness is a characteristic of immortality, as is evidenced by your wiki quotation.

In fact, all of the descriptive terms used in your wiki quote are used in the Dzogchen tantras to describe the Nature of Mind, except perhaps vacancy, as that might imply a sense of disconnection - too nihilistic. I wouldn't use that word nor have I heard it used... direct, experiential connection is at the core of all of these practices. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bindi]

6 hours ago, steve said:

 

I question the opinions of historians and scholars regarding the objectives of spiritual practice, and suggest everyone does the same! They use words like immortal vs emptiness, as if they were pointing in different directions, having defined those words conceptually but not having had the realization themselves. They have no frame of reference to have credibility.

We're talking about the results of spiritual practice.

That is best learned from a master or practitioner.

 

My quote was from the Shaolin Wahnam website https://shaolin.org/zen/void.html the writer is Zen Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit who also recognises Daoism as part of his practice though he finds Daoism too limited in a couple of ways. Knowing both and practising both puts him in a good position to critique their endgames. On the same page that I got my quote from he says we are lucky to have direct experience of both Zen and Taoist philosophies and practices. With direct experience of both practices, one can clearly see and feel the differences. This is what I mean when I say that there is a huge chasm between scholarly speculation and direct experience.

 

Quote

Practitioners are aimed at following the instructions of their discipline, being fully open to whatever manifests as the experience and results of their practice, and are generally discouraged from being focused on a conceptual fabrication of the endgame. Both Daoist and Buddhist masters are cautious not to bias their students, at least that's been my personal experience. It is a very personal and experiential matter.

 

Nevertheless, did you know that immortality is a quality of emptiness in the Dzogchen tantras?

 

I am aware of the rainbow body if this is the immortality you are referring to. Differences between the Daoist immortal body and Dzogchen rainbow body are for another thread that no one would ever like to see. 

 

Quote

Conversely, emptiness is a characteristic of immortality, as is evidenced by your wiki quotation.

In fact, all of the descriptive terms used in your wiki quote are used in the Dzogchen tantras to describe the Nature of Mind, except perhaps vacancy, as that might imply a sense of disconnection - too nihilistic. I wouldn't use that word nor have I heard it used... direct, experiential connection is at the core of all of these practices. 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2018 by Bindi

[exorcist_1699]

On 2018/11/14 at 8:10 PM, Cheshire Cat said:

 

Not to mention that it's highly probable that a medicine for everlasting life doesn't exist at all outside of the minds of certain chinese philosophers.

Many lives have been wasted looking for something that cannot be found. 

 

The saying that  there is  some form of jing existing outside of us ,  in this  universe , sounds strange to most  people ; however, if people know  the Taoist theory well  , then it is nothing incomprehensible :

 

1) Jing ,qi and Shen , on pre-celestial level is unitary, so saying that jing  outside of us , existing everywhere is same as saying that qi  outside of us, existing everywhere.  It is only on post-celestial level that it splits, making us only sense them in respective ways , not their united status. Anyway, dull mind or a fragile body after sex  still  tells us  about their original linkage.

Jing also implies life, which, under whatever harsh conditions, try to rise and grow;   Confucius , in his famous comments on the Yi Jing , ie the so-called " 易繫辭"  ,  tells  us :

 

" 天地之大德曰生" ;

 

" The  greatest  de  (' function or expression ')of this universe is its tendency to have life and its trial to grow" ;

 

 

2) Under utmost mindlessness, we can get sex pleasure  arisen from the abdomen ( in case of women, somewhere in between the breasts , correct me if I get it  wrong...)  , then spread to the whole body, which likely are some of the male practitioners' experiences ( hardly  can old guys  experience that , unfortunately );  so although post-celestial sex pleasure arises  from different areas ,say  oral, anal, phallic..etc at various of our growth stages,   as told by Freud , all of them are limited to certain area or organ of the body . Pre-celestial jing pleasure , on the other hand, is not limited to any small portion of it  ;

Because utmost  mindlessness gets the  same character as ubiquitous emptiness , it  is another , maybe practical , proof  that jing , more precisely speaking ,  pre-celestial jing, does exist outside;   it is also Taoist explanation about  why life finds every chance to live and glow.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by exorcist_1699

[vonkrankenhaus]

I think WuJi is "No Polarity"

And TaiJi is "Supreme Polarity"

WuJi is called the "Emptiness" because without polarity there can be no thing, and if there is one thing, there is polarity.

 

TaiJi means some thing is there to exhibit polarity - even "Being/Non-Being" is a polarity, and makes no sense without there "being" some thing.

 

Buddhism isn't talking about that. They mean something more like "Reality" without any inventions.





-VonKrankenhaus 

[Bindi]

I see it like this, if we return to Wu-ji which to me is primarily primordial chaos, it allows true qi/primordial qi which I understand as 'wind' to be established and flow, like the proverbial breath of fresh air.  Returning to emptiness in order to start again, but this time based on something true and pure. 

 

Quote

 

In Chinese cosmology there was originally hun-tun, an undifferentiated luminous cloud, a void with no boundary, emptiness, a potential state. The hun-tun is sometimes considered a state of chaos in that is undivided, whole, a state where everything is mixed together. This potential, undifferentiated primordial state is also called Wu Ji. Wu Ji means literally “no limit” or “no polarity.” It is the “One,” the place we are trying to get close to in meditation.

 

Movement occurs within the undifferentiated matter, the non-polarized “stuff” that is the Wu Ji. This movement is like wind, like a breath, an inhalation and an exhalation. This movement is the primordial Qi/Breath, the true Qi/Breath. 

 

https://www.internalartsinternational.com/free/daoist-meditation-lesson-four-theory-returning-to-emptiness-wu-ji/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2018 by Bindi

[Apech]

Quote

 

Isabelle Robinet outlines the etymological origins of hundun.

Semantically, the term hundun is related to several expressions, hardly translatable in Western languages, that indicate the void or a barren and primal immensity – for instance, hunlun 混淪, hundong 混洞, kongdong 空洞, menghong 蒙洪, or hongyuan 洪元. It is also akin to the expression "something confused and yet complete" (huncheng 混成) found in the Daode jing 25, which denotes the state prior to the formation of the world where nothing is perceptible, but which nevertheless contains a cosmic seed. Similarly, the state of hundun is likened to an egg; in this usage, the term alludes to a complete world round and closed in itself, which is a receptacle like a cavern (dong 洞) or a gourd (hu 壺or hulu 壺盧). (2007:524)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundun

 

 

As this is virtually identical to the Egyptian Nun (or Nu) the primeaval chaos I feel semi qualified to answer.

 

What it indicates is an undifferentiated state before the 'known' is known.  But the 'before' is not temporal.  In other words its not before in time.  It is that from which knowing and order can emerge but it is in itself unknown.  It is the state to which things return and yet also permeates what exists.  It is not a luminous cloud, though - that is just to mistake hundun for ordinary states of confusion.  You could say that in it all possible states of existence superimpose to such an extent that nothing stands out from it - it is full of life and yet inert.  In relation to existence it is a continual source of renewal as it is total potentiality.

 

 

[doc benway]

17 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

My quote was from the Shaolin Wahnam website https://shaolin.org/zen/void.html the writer is Zen Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit who also recognises Daoism as part of his practice though he finds Daoism too limited in a couple of ways. Knowing both and practising both puts him in a good position to critique their endgames. On the same page that I got my quote from he says we are lucky to have direct experience of both Zen and Taoist philosophies and practices. With direct experience of both practices, one can clearly see and feel the differences. This is what I mean when I say that there is a huge chasm between scholarly speculation and direct experience.

 

 

I am aware of the rainbow body if this is the immortality you are referring to. Differences between the Daoist immortal body and Dzogchen rainbow body are for another thread that no one would ever like to see. 

 

 

 

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm not referring to the rainbow body... another conceptual construct.

I'm referring to described qualities of the Natural State in Dzogchen tantras, and to personal experience.

Certainly there are conceptual and experiential differences from paradigm to paradigm and from individual to individual.

There are also profound similarities.

We can choose to emphasize either on any given Sunday...

 

Happy Sunday!

 

 

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm not referring to the rainbow body... another conceptual construct.

I'm referring to described qualities of the Natural State in Dzogchen tantras, and to personal experience.

Certainly there are conceptual and experiential differences from paradigm to paradigm and from individual to individual.

There are also profound similarities.

We can choose to emphasize either on any given Sunday...

 

Happy Sunday!

 

 

 

Very happy Sunday to you too.

 

How do you see the rainbow body as a conceptual construct?

[Cheshire Cat]

9 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

 

[...]

 

1) Jing ,qi and Shen , on pre-celestial level is unitary, so saying that jing  outside of us , existing everywhere is same as saying that qi  outside of us, existing everywhere.  It is only on post-celestial level that it splits, making us only sense their respective ways , not their united status. Anyway, dull mind or a fragile body after sex  still  tells us  about their original linkage.

[...]

 

I don't dare to venture in a philosophical discussion on the constitutive elements of human energetic systems, but I think that the idea that sex has a negative impact on body and mind is nothing more than a fairy tale. And I think so for a very specific reason: those who are commited to celibacy (monks) doesn't live longer than those who don't.

 

That which is harmful and can produce dull mind and fragile body is excessively frequent sex.

 

9 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

[...]

 

2) Under utmost mindlessness, we can get sex pleasure  arisen from the abdomen ( in case of women, somewhere in between the breasts , correct me if I get it  wrong...)  , then spread to the whole body, which likely are some of the male practitioners' experiences ( hardly  can old guys  experience that , unfortunately );  so although post-celestial sex pleasure arises  from different areas ,say  oral, anal, phallic..etc at various of our growth stages,   as told by Freud , all of them are limited to certain area or organ of the body . Pre-celestial jing pleasure , on the other hand, is not limited to any small portion of it  ;

Because utmost  mindlessness gets the  same character as ubiquitous emptiness , it  is another , maybe practical , proof  that jing , more precisely speaking ,  pre-celestial jing, does exist outside;   it is also Taoist explanation about  why life finds every chance to live and glow.

 

I'm familiar with this phenomenon which I investigated for many years: this pleasure arises from the abdomen if you spent a lot of time concentrating on the abdomen. I can experience it in the third eye, in the dan tien and in many other spots.

When it's in the heart area, it turns into deep love which is so intense to be perceived as an emotion more pleasurable than normal sex.

So, there's no male/female rule.

 

It's significant to mention that the practitioners of AYP system deliberately cultivate this orgasmic pleasure in the spine and they noticed that it's accompanied by a very peculiar symptom which they call "natural vajroli": the discharge of semen into the bladder during meditation and daily activities.

They theorize a process of natural evolution of the human bladder into an organ capable of absorbing semen.

 

My theory is simply that an overcharged nervous system is forced to release trough the sexual vescicles which act as safety valves. This is something that may be taxing for the system.

 

Therefore, I don't recommend to indulge in those types of mental exercices that produce this type of pleasure if longevity is important for you.

 

 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

I don't dare to venture in a philosophical discussion on the constitutive elements of human energetic systems, but I think that the idea that sex has a negative impact on body and mind is nothing more than a fairy tale. And I think so for a very specific reason: those who are commited to celibacy (monks) doesn't live longer than those who don't.

 

That which is harmful and can produce dull mind and fragile body is excessively frequent sex.

 

 

I'm familiar with this phenomenon which I investigated for many years: this pleasure arises from the abdomen if you spent a lot of time concentrating on the abdomen. I can experience it in the third eye, in the dan tien and in many other spots.

When it's in the heart area, it turns into deep love which is so intense to be perceived as an emotion more pleasurable than normal sex.

So, there's no male/female rule.

 

It's significant to mention that the practitioners of AYP system deliberately cultivate this orgasmic pleasure in the spine and they noticed that it's accompanied by a very peculiar symptom which they call "natural vajroli": the discharge of semen into the bladder during meditation and daily activities.

They theorize a process of natural evolution of the human bladder into an organ capable of absorbing semen.

 

My theory is simply that an overcharged nervous system is forced to release trough the sexual vescicles which act as safety valves. This is something that may be taxing for the system.

 

Therefore, I don't recommend to indulge in those types of mental exercices that produce this type of pleasure if longevity is important for you.

 

 

Why do you say that about the AYP system? Are you a practioner of it? While I am not a big fan of it, I do not remember anything specific like that as part of the system.

[vonkrankenhaus]

9 hours ago, Bindi said:

Movement occurs within the undifferentiated matter, the non-polarized “stuff” that is the Wu Ji.

Movement requires Polarity. 

WuJi is "without polarity".

There is no thing there, and no thing for any thing to move to.

WuJi is "infinite". There is no "thing" to distinguish in "No-thing".

 

Infinity = Zero, so "infinite movement" = Zero Movement.

 

Some Thing (TaiJi) appears from No Thing (WuJi), and that Thing exhibits TaiJi - Polarity - it will have and exhibit an Up/Down, Being/Non-Being, Inside/Outside, etc - what we see in the TaiJi Tu.

 

Between these poles, there is Movement. Movement between the poles of a polarity is "Qi".

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Cheshire Cat]

5 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Why do you say that about the AYP system? Are you a practioner of it? While I am not a big fan of it, I do not remember anything specific like that as part of the system.

 

I don't practice AYP, but I studied it. 

 

 

In AYP terminology, ecstatic conductivity arises from the practice of spinal breathing and deep meditation (with inner mantra). 

As part of the combination of a naturally occurring physiological phenomenology, natural vajroli takes place. 

Unless the practitioner relies on amaroli, he may never notice natural vajroli.