Central channel or Heart Field?

[dwai]

In Damo Mitchell's new book titled "A comprehensive guide to Daoist Nei gong", I found him distinguishing between the cultivation/working with the Central Channel from that of working with the Heart field. According to the book, most Daoist lineages deal with the former and seldom refer to the latter.

 

In my own experience, I found that the Central Channel development does seem to be the main focus of the daoist traditions I've studied. However, when I went to my master, it seems he was working on both, albeit the heart field cultivation is something that he added to the traditional teachings he was handed down from his master.  He often tells us that the most powerful force in the universe is love and the heart field energy is that of love primarily (albeit he doesn't specifically discuss the heart field). 

 

Would love to hear more thoughts on this. 

[KuroShiro]

Do you know if the Central Channel is one of the Qi Jing Ba Mai?

Could you please define Heart field?

Does cultivation/working with the Central Channel has an effect on the Heart Field?

 

If Heart field has to do with Love I would say it seems this is also addressed in Daoism.

It seems to start with truly loving yourself, it grows from there.

 

 

This photo came up searching Heart field, it's a beautiful book:

 

[dwai]

3 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

Do you know if the Central Channel is one of the Qi Jing Ba Mai?

He doesn't discuss this (he as in Damo Mitchell). But it is the one that's tied to Heaven-man-Earth and Micro/macrocosmic orbits. 

3 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

Could you please define Heart field?

Heart field is the field generated by the Heart center (not physical heart). 

3 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

Does cultivation/working with the Central Channel has an effect on the Heart Field?

According to the book (and in my experience as well), it does. However, the focus is different. The Central channel deals with Yuan Shen. The Heart field deals with Self-cultivation (the spiritual heart is the seat of the self). 

3 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

 

If Heart field has to do with Love I would say it seems this is also addressed in Daoism.

It seems to start with truly loving yourself, it grows from there.

Can you elaborate on that?

3 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

 

This photo came up searching Heart field, it's a beautiful book:

 

Interesting....

[Cheshire Cat]

10 hours ago, dwai said:

(...) He often tells us that the most powerful force in the universe is love and the heart field energy is that of love primarily (albeit he doesn't specifically discuss the heart field). 

 

Would love to hear more thoughts on this. 

 

Love isn't the most powerful force in the universe and it's not the fundamental nature of your mind. 

This is just ignorance handed down from one generation to the next. 

 

But love is the most pleasurable experience that - as a human- you can have. And it's cultivated in many spiritual paths because it has a profound psychological effect. 

 

When people say that they cultivate the central channel, they basically visualize rainbows, unicorns and shit running along the spine, in the spine, in front of the spine, etc... When a tactile sensation kicks in, they stick to that and they proceed from there. 

 

This is basically what you do in neigong, qigong, etc. You cultivate tactile sensations and dream of becoming immortal, or at least more healthy. 

 

In cultivating the heart field aka the loving heart, the tactile approach could - at most- be a support for the first meditation session because the bulk of the work is psychological and it's done in the realm of emotions. 

For example, you may visualize someone you love until the emotion appears in your consciousness and you proceed from there (Guru yoga). 

 

Now that you know what it is, it's much easier to understand why Damo Mitchel made such a distinction. 

Edited October 23, 2018 by Cheshire Cat

[johndoe2012]

1 hour ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

But love is the most pleasurable experience that - as a human- you can have. And it's cultivated in many spiritual paths because it has a profound psychological effect. 

 

This is a redefinition of what dwai is talking about. His master is referring to Divine Love which is not the emotion / experience you are talking about.

 

Divine Love is endless, infinite and does not have any requirements.

[Cheshire Cat]

15 minutes ago, johndoe2012 said:

 

This is a redefinition of what dwai is talking about. His master is referring to Divine Love which is not the emotion / experience you are talking about.

 

Divine Love is endless, infinite and does not have any requirements.

 

I guess that you believe in the existence of such a thing because of faith... 

But in the meanwhile, you rely on mental speculation to know what it is. 

 

If you get somewhere, let me know. 

 

 

 

 

 

[dwai]

7 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

Love isn't the most powerful force in the universe and it's not the fundamental nature of your mind. 

This is just ignorance handed down from one generation to the next. 

 

But love is the most pleasurable experience that - as a human- you can have. And it's cultivated in many spiritual paths because it has a profound psychological effect. 

There is love and then there is *love*  

Love is the creative force of this entire cosmos. It is not limited to inter-personal love, which is powerful of course.

7 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

When people say that they cultivate the central channel, they basically visualize rainbows, unicorns and shit running along the spine, in the spine, in front of the spine, etc... When a tactile sensation kicks in, they stick to that and they proceed from there. 

 

7 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

This is basically what you do in neigong, qigong, etc. You cultivate tactile sensations and dream of becoming immortal, or at least more healthy. 

I've not met even one such practitioner in person. I've read some kooks write about it on TDB though  

7 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

In cultivating the heart field aka the loving heart, the tactile approach could - at most- be a support for the first meditation session because the bulk of the work is psychological and it's done in the realm of emotions. 

For example, you may visualize someone you love until the emotion appears in your consciousness and you proceed from there (Guru yoga). 

Guru Yoga has nothing to do with evoking emotions as I know and practice it. It is that way in Bhakti yoga though. But that has to do with self-surrender. 

7 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

Now that you know what it is, it's much easier to understand why Damo Mitchel made such a distinction. 

Thanks for illuminating the conversation  

[dwai]

6 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

I guess that you believe in the existence of such a thing because of faith... 

But in the meanwhile, you rely on mental speculation to know what it is. 

 

If you get somewhere, let me know. 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you want to try it out? I'll be happy to work with you one on one to show how it works  

[Cheshire Cat]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

There is love and then there is *love*  

Love is the creative force of this entire cosmos. It is not limited to inter-personal love, which is powerful of course.

 

When you get some meditative experiences on how the mind works, you start to understand what is love and how it's related to internal wind movements. You learn to isolate the emotion from images and thoughts, you learn to refine and increase the potential of your mind to generate it independently from internal or external objects. You understand that inter-personal love is nothing but a glimpse of the real thing and you also realize that because the "root" is the same,  any form of love that you currently experience constitutes an ideal object to start your cultivation with.

 

When you feel too smart to actually practice anything, you need to define a supreme form of love which is ideally superior to anything that you ever experienced. This Divine Love is not a real thing, but it's defined by mental speculation on how human reason would like things to be.

 

 

Quote

Guru Yoga has nothing to do with evoking emotions as I know and practice it. It is that way in Bhakti yoga though. But that has to do with self-surrender.

 

Sure. Go on with it and if you succeed you'll become a beautiful big belly tibetan lama.

 

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

Do you want to try it out? I'll be happy to work with you one on one to show how it works  

 

Try what?

Edited October 23, 2018 by Cheshire Cat

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

When you get some meditative experiences on how the mind works, you start to understand what is love and how it's related to internal wind movements. You learn to isolate the emotion from images and thoughts, you learn to refine and increase the potential of your mind to generate it independently from internal or external objects. You understand that inter-personal love is nothing but a glimpse of the real thing and you also realize that because the "root" is the same,  any form of love that you currently experience constitutes an ideal object to start your cultivation with.

Its good to know that you have deep meditative experiences. Love, as I'm referring to it, is not an emotion per se. It is a result of realizing the inherent unity of the universe. Being IS Love. Awareness IS Love and so on ....

2 minutes ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

When you feel too smart to actually practice anything, you need to define a supreme form of love which is ideally superior to anything that you ever experienced. This Divine Love is not a real thing, but it's defined by mental speculation on how human reason would like things to be.

 

What is divine? Is it separate from us? Not so in my experience. The divine is the awareness that shines through our body-mind apparatuses. 

2 minutes ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

Sure. Go on with it and if you succeed you'll become a beautiful big belly tibetan lama.

 

 I'm already a big belly indian middle-aged man. Might even pass off as a lama if I wore the garbs  

2 minutes ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

Try what?

What love can enable us to do. Transcend time and space, and join in a shared awareness/presence. That's a result of working with the heart field. 

[Edward M]

Good topic, I'd be interested in hearing more about the heart field and how one goes about working with it? 

 

Thanks,

Edward  

[dwai]

30 minutes ago, Edward M said:

Good topic, I'd be interested in hearing more about the heart field and how one goes about working with it? 

 

Thanks,

Edward  

I'm hoping there are a few bums here who have worked on it from the Daoist cultivation angle and are willing to share. 

[Wu Ming Jen]

The central channel is not one of the three elixir fields. The central channel has many striking points for martial artist and the thrusting channel for emitting power.

 

the energy anatomy of the human body is described as a combination of a channel, or meridian ( jingluo in Chinese), network; acupuncture points; and several energy fields – the upper, middle and lower dantians 

 

When the intent (yi) descends and connects with the heart (xin), a connection is established between the upper and middle dantian; thus, one of the three internal harmonies is created. It is within this particular area that the subtle energy layers of intent, emotions and spirit connect with our physical body. When the heart has imbibed the blood with its powerful and integrated energy field, the blood, by expanding from the heart in all directions to the body’s periphery, carries the mental and spiritual quality of the qi (i.e. the intent and spirit) towards the muscles. In this way, the second internal harmony between the qi and the body’s muscle power (li) is activated.

 

So we can see we are not talking about a meridian or channel above but an energy field. This maybe is why Damo Mitchell is distinguishing channels from elixir fields as it should be..

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

The central channel is not one of the three elixir fields. The central channel has many striking points for martial artist and the thrusting channel for emitting power.

The Central channel is the Chong Mai iinm...the main channel of the 8 extraordinary meridians. It seems to be the conduit for both Qi as well as Shen (which is concentrated towards the center). 

2 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

the energy anatomy of the human body is described as a combination of a channel, or meridian ( jingluo in Chinese), network; acupuncture points; and several energy fields – the upper, middle and lower dantians 

 

When the intent (yi) descends and connects with the heart (xin), a connection is established between the upper and middle dantian; thus, one of the three internal harmonies is created. It is within this particular area that the subtle energy layers of intent, emotions and spirit connect with our physical body. When the heart has imbibed the blood with its powerful and integrated energy field, the blood, by expanding from the heart in all directions to the body’s periphery, carries the mental and spiritual quality of the qi (i.e. the intent and spirit) towards the muscles. In this way, the second internal harmony between the qi and the body’s muscle power (li) is activated.

This is very insightful. 

2 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

 

So we can see we are not talking about a meridian or channel above but an energy field. This maybe is why Damo Mitchell is distinguishing channels from elixir fields as it should be..

I think the Heart Field is not the MDT but more an integrated field that includes the UDT and the MDT (as you described). Any thoughts on that?

 

Overall the entire field of the individual is the sphere that is formed by the centers above the crown and the ones below the bubbling wells (there are three above the crown and three below, in the ground, iinm)...interconnected by the central beam of energy that flows through and beyond the central channel...or that's how I see it. 

[freeform]

Yeah I’m afraid Cheshire Cat is along the right lines... seems a bit grumpy though

 

This is not Daoist as such. It’s clearly taken from other teachings in other systems that may use it for spiritual cultivation. As you say, your teacher decided to bolt this onto the system passed down to him. Which is a shame.

 

As I understand it, hitting this point in practice can lead to a trap if you get caught up in it. It’s blissful, beautiful, feels like an unlimited field of love. It is that. But it’s also one layer of the onion that must eventually be shed if your aim is spiritual cultivation.

 

Self cultivation is another matter - if you’d stick around at that level you’d be a lovely person that’s slightly out of this world. It’s certainly a better place to be than 90% of the population - but it’s not the aim of spiritual cultivation. It will build layers of acquired mind. But feel good doing so

[Spotless]

Words are difficult in this discussion as they are both inadequate and very much emotionally charged as well as misleading.

 

Love is a tough word to use within a general conversation. 

Mind is so diminutive that using it in these expansive dialogs is almost childish.

And then there is that fact that experience varies from the "thinking" that this is mostly rainbows to those thinking they understand something at a high level and yet they are far below the mark.

We can also see conceptualizing taken out of context and translations from those that were quite well intended and did a great job but used words that are based on only a mild understanding.

 

Channels and meridians are very specific until they are not - the channels specifically can be somewhat whispy to vibrant and well defined - but these are only in the bodies that have not transformed a great deal - though they may have been in many many years of practice.

 

At some point the channels become quite large and tubular - very full and bright. This is an interim stage and does not last too long. 

Then they will fuse and become one energy field - this field still has within it the Channels but they are far different. This includes the former "Micro Cosmic Orbit" which rose to great prominence and then also becomes one with this greater field. 

 

While great structures may already have been both above the head and below - before this happened and after - a great deal of energetic growth is still to come forth.

 

The head region must undergo a great deal of unfolding after the fusing of the fields - this supercedes any notion or experience of the "opening of the 3rd eye"  and other previous openings in the head. The head will feel the unfolding taking place and the great powers of the unified field work with and upon this. 

 

As the head area - (and considerably beyond its physical "boundaries") is prepared for what is to come - considerable work/practice is required as residuals of willfulness and other held qualities must fall away.

 

Then in the "final" progressions the Great Column of the back opens -  and connects to the head - this is not a "massive" kundalini arising - it is far beyond that - it is the establishment of the full Kundalini energetic column - some 8-12" in circumference (though it does not have a clear boundary and is considerably larger in field than 12") and it is now "ON" all the time. This then expands "bifurcates" into the heart field filling it in a uniquely specific event.  Not long after this the field drops down the front of the head and bodies. The new field is extraordinarily papable and sustained - it is very strong and calm and though it becomes a "common" element in one's overall energetics - this is now the sustained base awareness of the subtle bodies.

 

The Great Center Pole is more vibrant than ever - it though is more of a center of energies surrounding it - it is gut, heart and head - seated in the astounding base, the magnificent base from which the others in chorus join above and below - the power of which is unimaginable and beyond time and space - yet fully in touch with every toe and hair.

 

The Heart center's are many - they unfold so many times that a false acceptance of them is premature to the point of certainty. The word love is so far from the mark - it is so much more closely aligned with never-ending compassion and objectless gratitude and boundless spontaneous creativity. And this is not centered in the Heart - it is centered within the whole and its center is boundless.

 - 

As the Heart Center is filled - it is impregnated as though with blood - it actually feels like it is being inflated with blood  that is only slightly warmer than the surroundings - it is large - fully from side of chest to side of chest and the size of a large family sized pizza. This is far different from earlier sensations of a warm heart center or the heart center to the slight right of center. It is entirely different from the full opening of the Heart Chakra and also the Opening of the heart center to the right of it. It is massive by comparison.

 

The  Center is only clarified as One with the base "supporting" like a great tree - the Head and Heart are not higher and they are lost without the base. Becoming lost in the Head or Heart is losing ones self to the delights they have in store. A circle cannot have a top without a bottom - our highest nature cannot be known without the bedrock of Being - concentration on head or heart is an interim step but it may become a dungeon - perhaps a saintly one or a sages courtyard - but a dungeon none the less.

 

In full prominence it is hard to walk - it is difficult to "do" much more that BE in Presence. It is a disabling Grace grounded in a boundless vastness - extraordinarily physical and unlimited.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Spotless

[dawei]

On 10/22/2018 at 3:24 PM, dwai said:

In Damo Mitchell's new book titled "A comprehensive guide to Daoist Nei gong", I found him distinguishing between the cultivation/working with the Central Channel from that of working with the Heart field. According to the book, most Daoist lineages deal with the former and seldom refer to the latter.

 

In my own experience, I found that the Central Channel development does seem to be the main focus of the daoist traditions I've studied. However, when I went to my master, it seems he was working on both, albeit the heart field cultivation is something that he added to the traditional teachings he was handed down from his master.  He often tells us that the most powerful force in the universe is love and the heart field energy is that of love primarily (albeit he doesn't specifically discuss the heart field). 

 

Would love to hear more thoughts on this. 

 

Nice topic.  I've not heard the term 'heart field' but it is interesting to ponder its usage here.

 

One should remember that usually the reference to Daoist Nei Gong is already containing non-daoist items when Buddhist influence came into play.  

 

When I did Medical Qigong, they were very open to state it is a mix bag of Daoist tradition and modern practices, meditations, mco, chakras, etc.    The central channel was very important in terms of unifying; the heart, along with all the organs was very important in terms of strengthening their roles.  The is traditionally called the "General" who directs all the functions.  In that sense, the heart is 'in control' when one is relying on the heart[mind].   I think that it may be possible that traditional Daoist practices didn't focus on the heart field because it is something that builds and grows and strengthens by doing practices like the MCO and/or central channel.   But this is why I like and recommend Mantak Chia's inner smile which places focus on each organ with a 'smile'... the source of that smile is the 'heart', IMO.

 

On 10/26/2018 at 3:02 PM, dwai said:

The Central channel is the Chong Mai iinm...the main channel of the 8 extraordinary meridians. It seems to be the conduit for both Qi as well as Shen (which is concentrated towards the center). 

This is very insightful. 

I think the Heart Field is not the MDT but more an integrated field that includes the UDT and the MDT (as you described). Any thoughts on that?

 

Overall the entire field of the individual is the sphere that is formed by the centers above the crown and the ones below the bubbling wells (there are three above the crown and three below, in the ground, iinm)...interconnected by the central beam of energy that flows through and beyond the central channel...or that's how I see it. 

 

I generally agree but on your comment that the Heart Field is not the MDT... is that from the book ?  Might be good to share why you have this thought so we can understand the definition of this. 

[dwai]

9 hours ago, freeform said:

Yeah I’m afraid Cheshire Cat is along the right lines... seems a bit grumpy though

 

This is not Daoist as such. It’s clearly taken from other teachings in other systems that may use it for spiritual cultivation. As you say, your teacher decided to bolt this onto the system passed down to him. Which is a shame.

I don't know you, but I know my teacher. I didn't find anything shameful in what he taught me yet  

9 hours ago, freeform said:

 

As I understand it, hitting this point in practice can lead to a trap if you get caught up in it. It’s blissful, beautiful, feels like an unlimited field of love. It is that. But it’s also one layer of the onion that must eventually be shed if your aim is spiritual cultivation.

 

Self cultivation is another matter - if you’d stick around at that level you’d be a lovely person that’s slightly out of this world. It’s certainly a better place to be than 90% of the population - but it’s not the aim of spiritual cultivation. It will build layers of acquired mind. But feel good doing so

How do you know one way or another?  Perhaps you could share your personal experiences in this matter?

[freeform]

12 hours ago, dwai said:

don't know you, but I know my teacher. I didn't find anything shameful in what he taught me yet  

 

I completely understand why you’d want to defend your teacher. I apologise if what I said offended you.

 

You see - having spent many years trying to find authentic Daoist teachings, I became very disillusioned as I saw most teachers mixing traditions, dumbing things down, creating their own amalgamation of systems and their own ideas. This is how these arts, little by little, are homogenised and completely lost...

 

I think there needs to be a certain level of respect for classical teachings. Love, ‘divine love’, the love field etc. just doesn’t feature in most authentic Daoist lineages. And I don’t think it’s because these enlightened masters were too stupid to ‘notice’ it. I think they treated it as mostly irrelevant for a very good reason.

 

Most of the lineages came down from very advanced, enlightened beings. They taught things in a very specific way for a specific reason. I trust that they were far smarter than me. And so I trust that since they decided not to treat love as the most powerful force in the universe, then that’s good enough for me.

 

And it’s probably important to mention again that it depends on your aims. Spiritual cultivation is not for everyone!! It’s different to doing practices to live a fuller life or de-stress or whatever. It’s a specific path where you dismantle every part of who you think you are.

 

Regarding people entering the ‘bliss state’ as I would call it. Yes I’ve come across two individuals who entered this phase of training and hit a dead end.

 

This is a stage they reached through specific alchemical trainings (in two different schools) involving the central channel. When a certain ‘spinal fire’ (similar to chakras) opens up, you connect to this feeling of infinite love.

 

They both pretty much stopped training. One of them I’ve lost contact with. The other one I met recently. He’s now a family man selling crystals. He told me that the bliss state lasted 3yrs, by the sounds of things his life fell apart (lost his flat, a relationship, stopped working etc)... then he went through a period of deep depression. He’s now happy, with a little family, living a simple life. Really nice guy. He meditates from time to time. He’s completely disillusioned with spiritual cultivation.

 

I also know a few individuals who’ve gone through this process, but followed the path and came out the other side. The bliss state lasted between 2 and 3 months for them. One lady described it as a mild dose of MDMA, but 24/7. They were told by our teacher to ignore it and not get attached (very hard to do apparently!) They’re pretty advanced students and quite an inspiration.

[Pilgrim]

17 hours ago, dawei said:

But this is why I like and recommend Mantak Chia's inner smile which places focus on each organ with a 'smile'... the source of that smile is the 'heart', IMO.

Thanks for the reminder I had forgotten about the inner smile. In the Kriya tradition of Hariharananda we were taught to do every practice with love. I think that perhaps the inner smile is just as good perhaps even better.

[dwai]

20 hours ago, dawei said:

 

Nice topic.  I've not heard the term 'heart field' but it is interesting to ponder its usage here.

 

One should remember that usually the reference to Daoist Nei Gong is already containing non-daoist items when Buddhist influence came into play.  

Very true. 

20 hours ago, dawei said:

 

When I did Medical Qigong, they were very open to state it is a mix bag of Daoist tradition and modern practices, meditations, mco, chakras, etc.    The central channel was very important in terms of unifying; the heart, along with all the organs was very important in terms of strengthening their roles.  The is traditionally called the "General" who directs all the functions.  In that sense, the heart is 'in control' when one is relying on the heart[mind].   I think that it may be possible that traditional Daoist practices didn't focus on the heart field because it is something that builds and grows and strengthens by doing practices like the MCO and/or central channel.   But this is why I like and recommend Mantak Chia's inner smile which places focus on each organ with a 'smile'... the source of that smile is the 'heart', IMO.

My student is embarking down the path of Medical Qigong (haha he's also a Mantak Chia aficionado). The big gap in found in Daoist practice without the heart field cultivation is that practitioners tend to become cold. I was like that before I went to my master. After being with him, I found myself being able to stay detached and yet be more "warm" in terms of general loving-kindness. Of course, that took on a different dimension after working you, jeff, et al. 

20 hours ago, dawei said:

 

I generally agree but on your comment that the Heart Field is not the MDT... is that from the book ?  Might be good to share why you have this thought so we can understand the definition of this. 

It's not in the book. It is my experiential observation. 

[dwai]

4 hours ago, freeform said:

 

I completely understand why you’d want to defend your teacher. I apologise if what I said offended you.

I wasn't offended so  much as amused (would be more appropriate if you added the context). 

4 hours ago, freeform said:

 

You see - having spent many years trying to find authentic Daoist teachings, I became very disillusioned as I saw most teachers mixing traditions, dumbing things down, creating their own amalgamation of systems and their own ideas. This is how these arts, little by little, are homogenised and completely lost...

 

I think there needs to be a certain level of respect for classical teachings. Love, ‘divine love’, the love field etc. just doesn’t feature in most authentic Daoist lineages. And I don’t think it’s because these enlightened masters were too stupid to ‘notice’ it. I think they treated it as mostly irrelevant for a very good reason.

 

Most of the lineages came down from very advanced, enlightened beings. They taught things in a very specific way for a specific reason. I trust that they were far smarter than me. And so I trust that since they decided not to treat love as the most powerful force in the universe, then that’s good enough for me.

And you've heard these enlightened beings tell you that "love is not the most powerful force in the universe"? 

You're making a logical inference based on incomplete information it seems...  

4 hours ago, freeform said:

 

And it’s probably important to mention again that it depends on your aims. Spiritual cultivation is not for everyone!! It’s different to doing practices to live a fuller life or de-stress or whatever. It’s a specific path where you dismantle every part of who you think you are.

It'd help if you can define what spiritual cultivation is, in your understanding. What is it that you are cultivating? 

4 hours ago, freeform said:

Regarding people entering the ‘bliss state’ as I would call it. Yes I’ve come across two individuals who entered this phase of training and hit a dead end.

The bliss "state" is not a state at all, in my experience. That is a basic nature of our being. It just gets masked by the extroversion of the mind/consciousness. 

4 hours ago, freeform said:

This is a stage they reached through specific alchemical trainings (in two different schools) involving the central channel. When a certain ‘spinal fire’ (similar to chakras) opens up, you connect to this feeling of infinite love.

This infinite love is not something to connect to. It is also a basic nature of our being. It only gets masked by the extroversion of the mind/consciousness. 

4 hours ago, freeform said:

 

They both pretty much stopped training. One of them I’ve lost contact with. The other one I met recently. He’s now a family man selling crystals. He told me that the bliss state lasted 3yrs, by the sounds of things his life fell apart (lost his flat, a relationship, stopped working etc)... then he went through a period of deep depression. He’s now happy, with a little family, living a simple life. Really nice guy. He meditates from time to time. He’s completely disillusioned with spiritual cultivation.

Seems like he gave up too soon. 

4 hours ago, freeform said:

 

I also know a few individuals who’ve gone through this process, but followed the path and came out the other side. The bliss state lasted between 2 and 3 months for them. One lady described it as a mild dose of MDMA, but 24/7. They were told by our teacher to ignore it and not get attached (very hard to do apparently!) They’re pretty advanced students and quite an inspiration.

The problem is not with bliss. The problem is in misidentification of who we are, and attaching to the bliss. If you think the bliss is something outside of you, you will try to latch onto some practice, or some object, etc from which you seem to derive your bliss. If bliss is your own nature, what is there to attach to? Wherever you go, there you are...and there is the bliss  

 

[freeform]

 

On 22/10/2018 at 8:24 PM, dwai said:

Would love to hear more thoughts on this. 

 

It seems to me that what you’d actually love to hear is agreement with you.

 

I'm afraid I disagree. 

 

I’ve gone to some lengths to explained why and gave you clear examples I’ve come across.

 

The enlightened Daoist masters left classical texts. Nowhere does it say ‘love is the basic nature of our being’ or anything remotely like that. Or maybe you know of some that do?

 

I think if you actually want a useful discussion, it’s now up to you to explain your position, give examples and reasons for your views which contradict both the book you’re quoting as well as the Daoist classics.

 

If you’d rather just create an echo-chamber for your views, then I’m happy to leave this thread and let you enjoy that.

[Spotless]

Great discussion from both Dwai and Freeform and everyone!

Edited October 31, 2018 by Spotless

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

 

It seems to me that what you’d actually love to hear is agreement with you.

 

I'm afraid I disagree. 

 

I’ve gone to some lengths to explained why and gave you clear examples I’ve come across.

 

The enlightened Daoist masters left classical texts. Nowhere does it say ‘love is the basic nature of our being’ or anything remotely like that. Or maybe you know of some that do?

 

I think if you actually want a useful discussion, it’s now up to you to explain your position, give examples and reasons for your views which contradict both the book you’re quoting as well as the Daoist classics.

 

If you’d rather just create an echo-chamber for your views, then I’m happy to leave this thread and let you enjoy that.

 

I would disagree.  From the Tao Te Ching...

 

THIRTEEN

Accept disgrace willingly. Accept misfortune as the human condition.

What do you mean by “Accept disgrace willingly”? Accept being unimportant.

Do not be concerned with loss or gain. This is called “accepting disgrace willingly.”

What do you mean by “Accept misfortune as the human condition”?

Misfortune comes from having a body. Without a body, how could there be misfortune?

Surrender yourself humbly; then you can be trusted to care for all things.

Love the world as your own self; then you can truly care for all things.

 

Or if you prefer a reference to the Heart...

 

EIGHT

The highest good is like water.

Water gives life to the ten thousand things and does not strive.

It flows in places people reject and so is like the Tao.

In dwelling, be close to the land. In meditation, go deep in the heart.

In dealing with others, be gentle and kind. In speech, be true.

In ruling, be just. In business, be competent. In action, watch the timing. No fight: No blame.