Central channel or Heart Field?

[dwai]

26 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I’m sorry, but I’ve been asked not to give details publicly. 

 

But there are examples in Damo’s book.

 

 

It is very convenient!

 

It’s not a mind trick because most of these signs are objective and often physical (can be seen and felt by anyone).

 like light radiating from the person when meditating?

Halo around the head?

 

 

Quote

My main teacher is in a specific branch of the Dragon Gate lineage. I’ve been part of other alchemical Daoist lineages too. There are differences in the process, but a lot of the milestones and developmental signs are the same.

Nice. My student’s medical qigong teacher is a dragon gate student apparently...

 

Quanzhen school iirc does focus on the alchemical/physical immortality concept. Had read opening the dragon gate a long time ago  

 

 

Edited November 4, 2018 by dwai

[freeform]

18 hours ago, dwai said:

 like light radiating from the person when meditating?

Halo around the head?

 

 

Maybe. Depends on who sees it.

 

If 12 jurors all see it, then it’s definitely a sign of something going on.

 

Different traditions will have different signs at different stages of development.

[freeform]

18 hours ago, dwai said:

Quanzhen school iirc does focus on the alchemical/physical immortality concept. Had read opening the dragon gate a long time ago  

 

 

 

There are different levels of immortality.

 

Yes the path is alchemical at its root.

[Roshawn Terrell]

On 11/1/2018 at 4:59 AM, freeform said:

The De are the highest state of functioning in the self. These are the emotions transformed into a higher state of being. It’s one of the highest levels of self development. But it’s not the development of Dao. That is done by going past self development to spiritual development (developing the spirit - the yuan shen). In fact (sadly) spiritual development is independent from self development - which often results in spiritually-realised arseholes... (lots of power hungry, sex crazed gurus around)

 

Can you help me understand what you mean by spiritual development? And is this a path one should choose? And if so why? And why do people who do choose it still become 'assholes'? For me, they and all of you can follow your own goals, but if I don't feel in my heart that I should travel down a path, I won't take it. Regardless of how 'realized' that path makes you.

 

Also, can some of you comment on my question I posted regarding Taoist sexual qigong? I feel the experience you guys have might shed light on mine. I'm still very new to all this, and as a scientist who strives to understand the world. I find this all very fascinating and rife with potential if we can understand these phenomena you all and the i'm sure small in comparison (and yet still profound for me) things I have experienced. Using scientific tools to build a cohesive model of what you're all touching on here. Actually I feel a combination of western science and these eastern (esoteric inner sciences) of the mind/body would actually benefit both. And could allow us to build a clearer model that shows from physics, physiological, and biological perspectives what's going on here? Which intern would help solve this problem of diluting the practices, as we could objectively begin to see where there is cross over. And the fact that there seems to be so much cross over, shows that you are all likely touching on the same phenomena. But are using different models to explain it. Just like how in western sciences there are multiple different competing models and theories to explain the same thing. You especially see this in the field of physics. And it is through competition and sex between ideas, that drives the evolution and progress of science. I feel if what freeform describes is correct, that Taoist Qigong might be a good place to start, as there are objective physiological changes in the body that can be observed. With better observational tools, such as EEG headsets that detect brainwaves, it may be possible to detect changes or see patterns that masters without these tools couldn't detect themselves. 

[Roshawn Terrell]

In regards to the discussion to the heart.

 

There's this book I got called the 'Yaqui Way of Knowledge' based on the teachings of a Yaqui Indian from Sonora by the name of Don Juan. I haven't read it yet for some reason.. But what made me get it was this review of it.

"You may find this book has a lot of chaff on how they prepare peyote and other drugs, mundane descriptions in diary... yet when you less expect it, they hit you with a boulder of wisdom that leaves you freezed.

There is ONE core idea in the book that makes the price tag disappear. You cannot pay for it. It goes like this:

"Anything is one of a million paths. Therefore you must always keep in mind that a path is only a path; if you feel you should not follow it, you must not stay with it under any conditions. To have such clarity you must lead a disciplined life. Only then will you know that any path is only a path and there is no affront, to oneself or to others, in dropping it if that is what your heart tells you to do. But your decision to keep on the path or to leave it must be free of fear or ambition. I warn you. Look at every path closely and deliberately. Try it as many times as you think necessary.

This question is one that only a very old man asks. Does this path have a heart? All paths are the same: they lead nowhere. They are paths going through the bush, or into the bush. In my own life I could say I have traversed long long paths, but I am not anywhere. Does this path have a heart? If it does, the path is good; if it doesn't, it is of no use. Both paths lead nowhere; but one has a heart, the other doesn't. One makes for a joyful journey; as long as you follow it, you are one with it. The other will make you curse your life. One makes you strong; the other weakens you.


Before you embark on any path ask the question: Does this path have a heart? If the answer is no, you will know it, and then you must choose another path. The trouble is nobody asks the question; and when a man finally realizes that he has taken a path without a heart, the path is ready to kill him. At that point very few men can stop to deliberate, and leave the path. A path without a heart is never enjoyable. You have to work hard even to take it. On the other hand, a path with heart is easy; it does not make you work at liking it."

Ever since I read the book I have followed that advice. Life blossoms with a feeling of realness."

I feel like this teaching relates immensely. And even though I felt disagreement with freeform in his assessment that the Tao doesn't concern itself with Love or the Heart. I did resonate with him when his that the Tao of the universe was not Love or Heart. 

 

Perhaps as maybe alluded to in the passage above. The Heart is what guides one on the Path, but is not the Path itself.

[freeform]

3 hours ago, Roshawn Terrell said:

Can you help me understand what you mean by spiritual development?

 

Sure - it’s actually pretty simple. 

 

Spiritual development is literally development of the spirit. 

 

The spirit (Yuan Shen) is that aspect of you that’s primordial - some times called pre-heaven or congenital. It’s there before you’re born. It’s separate from your identity or your ‘self’. It’s separate from morality. Or from anything of this world.

 

The reason that one can be a spiritual arsehole is because technically you can bypass self-development and go straight to spiritual development. But your ‘self’ stays very limited, reacts to life based on the baggage of its personality. 

 

So for example if you felt that you never got enough sexual attention, you may still (consciously or not) crave it and let your decisions be swayed by that ‘trauma’. And that’s why you often have spiritual gurus who abuse their power and sleep with all their students. They may have presence and a deep spiritual connection - but part of them is still just a teenager desperate for sex and power.

 

Dwai says that Love is the fundamental nature of your being. From what I’ve learned from many highly realised teachers from several traditions... Is that Love is one aspect of the fundamental nature of the self. It is not on the level of Yuan Shen or Dao. But it is crucial in self development.

 

This is very important. Because I did not say that Love has no place in Daoism, of course it does. It’s one of the virtues that comes about from the process of self transformation. 

 

But just as you can have deep spiritual realisation and still be an arsehole - you can also have highly developed virtues, but have no spiritual realisation. Probably better off than a spiritual arsehole though to be honest 

 

As to your other question.

 

Sexual Qi Gong.

 

The reason I didn’t reply to your post is because you won’t like my answer. I’ve discovered here that most people get very defensive when you question their assumptions.

 

I suggest being curious to see from a different perspective and test your assumptions. The aim is to arrive at the truth rather than be right.

 

And with that warning...

 

Remember the archetypal sex craving guru? Well at some point these types took the Daoist arts and manipulated them to suit their purpose (to have lots of sex).

 

Mantak Chia then also realised that sex sells. And it sells like crazy. So he cashed in on that. And so we have thousands of people reading his books and mistakenly believing that sex is at the centre of Daoist practice. That Jing is ‘sexual energy’. That you should press on your piping so that you ejaculate into your bladder. That you should send your sexually charged energy up to your heart and head etc.

 

This is all just a misapplication of the real teachings. In fact a lot of Chia’s practices cause terrible problems (only if practiced diligently, mind you). From Poison Fire (a classical Qi deviation where the purity of the heart is tainted by the lower desires - manifesting in various degrees of sexual deviancy and obsession)... to physical damage to the piping of your urogenital system.

 

I started my interest in Daoism many years ago after picking up one of Chia’s books. I’m just glad I had enough discernment at that young age to eventually see through it.

[OldDog]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

The spirit (Yuan Shen) is that aspect of you that’s primordial - some times called pre-heaven or congenital. It’s there before you’re born. It’s separate from your identity or your ‘self’. It’s separate from morality. Or from anything of this world.

 

This is probably the most important part of your response.

 

It would seem very hard to make a distinction between your self identity and your spirit, since most of your knowledge/understanding is based on sensory input from the external world.

 

 

[freeform]

3 hours ago, OldDog said:

 

It would seem very hard to make a distinction between your self identity and your spirit, since most of your knowledge/understanding is based on sensory input from the external world.

 

 

 

Yes! Exactly!

 

The acquired mind doesn’t operate on the same level, so it’s always tainted with distortion and delusion. 

 

Even if you’ve been able to completely transform your acquired mind to the purity of a sage (fully developed virtues), it’s still fundamentally on a different level to Original Spirit... or to Dao.

[Roshawn Terrell]

8 hours ago, freeform said:

 

But just as you can have deep spiritual realisation and still be an arsehole - you can also have highly developed virtues, but have no spiritual realisation. Probably better off than a spiritual arsehole though to be honest 

 

 

My point exactly, so what is the point of developing spirit? Do you gain power? Doesn't seem like it as the person still can't even control themselves.

 

8 hours ago, freeform said:

As to your other question.

 

Sexual Qi Gong.

 

The reason I didn’t reply to your post is because you won’t like my answer. I’ve discovered here that most people get very defensive when you question their assumptions.

 

I suggest being curious to see from a different perspective and test your assumptions. The aim is to arrive at the truth rather than be right.

 

 

You're fine, my goal is to only understand. If the model I have is incorrect, please let me know. 

 

My real question though, regardless of practice, was what was that powerful thing I felt? And how the hell could I produce such an experience from what is essentially, mere focused and controlled masturbation? From a western scientific perspective, we literally have no model to describe something like that. It's like us trying to describe the psychedelic experience, it's completely outside of our current scientific understanding.

 

In regards the practice, I accept the possibility that I could be wrong, but I do feel like there is something to sexual qigong and tantra. And based off of my research, I think these practices are meant to be done with one person, and one person only, and you dedicate yourself to that person. Not as an excuse to go around and have sex with whomever, though I can easily see how it can be misconstrued as that. Especially when you don't have integrity within yourself.

I really like this website on Tantra practices: https://www.sivasakti.com/

 

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Roshawn Terrell

[freeform]

3 hours ago, Roshawn Terrell said:

 

My point exactly, so what is the point of developing spirit? Do you gain power? Doesn't seem like it as the person still can't even control themselves.

 

 

No - not power. The opposite actually. 

 

Awakening. Enlightenment. Immortality (and beyond). In that order

 

3 hours ago, Roshawn Terrell said:

 

My real question though, regardless of practice, was what was that powerful thing I felt?

...

 

From a western scientific perspective, we literally have no model to describe something like that.

 

 

It would be speculation on my part to be honest. You might have opened your bai hui and the built up energy escaped through the top of the head.

 

Yeah - the western scientific perspective is quite limited when it comes to these arts. 

 

The rabbit hole only gets deeper with these practices.

 

And yes you’re right, there is ‘dual cultivation’ in Daoism. But it’s very different to how it’s taught by Chia and his offshoots.

 

Of course you’re free to experiment as you wish (I certainly did!).

 

I would just caution you on a couple of points - retention and forcing sexually charged energy upwards tends to cause real, serious damage if done regularly or intensively. Both psychological and physical damage. And not just a migraine

[Roshawn Terrell]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

 

No - not power. The opposite actually. 

 

Awakening. Enlightenment. Immortality (and beyond). In that order

 

 

But again, what is the point of it, if these things you attain don't even give you control over yourself? If you're still just a slave to sexual impulses. What's the point of this 'awakening,' 'enlightenment,' and immortality if you are still an 'asshole'. These seem like lower level goals, and it seems best that I should focus on developing myself, and building true artificial intelligence, so that if there does exists states beyond this. It can achieve them far beyond humans as a well. And regardless of what any human has managed to achieve, there is likely still far more that we have yet to even grasp. What's the point of immortality through this path if it can be achieved through technological means?

[Roshawn Terrell]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

It would be speculation on my part to be honest. You might have opened your bai hui and the built up energy escaped through the top of the head.

 

Yeah - the western scientific perspective is quite limited when it comes to these arts. 

 

The rabbit hole only gets deeper with these practices.

 

And yes you’re right, there is ‘dual cultivation’ in Daoism. But it’s very different to how it’s taught by Chia and his offshoots.

 

Of course you’re free to experiment as you wish (I certainly did!).

 

I would just caution you on a couple of points - retention and forcing sexually charged energy upwards tends to cause real, serious damage if done regularly or intensively. Both psychological and physical damage. And not just a migraine

 

Thank you for your feedback, i'll look into the bai hui.

 

I'll also heed your caution regarding these practices, I have heard of the danger. I figured maybe as I experiment, if I felt something was wrong, I'd stop, and if I felt something was right, i'd go further down that path. And hopefully that would be a useful tool for guiding me. If not, I was thinking of going to one of Mantak Chia's retreats when I got the chance. As I have so many questions, and I know that working with a master will take me much further much faster than on my own.

[Roshawn Terrell]

3 hours ago, Wuschel said:

 

Imho, in the beginning stages of enlightenment spirit is an observer - later it becomes a magician. 

 

Thank you, I think I see what you mean. It's another vantage point.

 

Why later?

[freeform]

8 hours ago, Wuschel said:

 

What do you mean by development? Like growing? refining? fusing? deepening the connection? freeing from attachments? How can something that is unchanging by nature be developed? 

 

I don't mean to argue, just curious about your perspective.

 

Yeah - fair question.

 

It’s more a case of bringing it into the manifest world. 

 

Roshawn. I know we talked about spiritually developed arseholes - but when you do hit the stage of enlightenment and then immortality, your personality is completely transformed... or rather - just discarded. 

 

It’s just that very very few people get to that stage

 

[welkin]

On 11/4/2018 at 7:25 AM, freeform said:

 

Does it seem strange that I should ask?

 

I've had issues with it before - for example when a friend started doing ‘reiki stuff’ while giving me a simple shoulder massage. She accidentally absorbed some Yang Qi and started spazzing out on the floor, with everyone thinking she’s having an epileptic seizure. Took some delicate negotiation for the ambulance crew not to take her. And then some extra practice time for me to get rid of the pathogens she left in me! I stay away from reiki

 

At the moment I’m going through a period of consolidation in the LDT. My Qi needs to remain as sunk as possible. If the experiment causes my Qi to raise then it won’t do me any good.

 

My sensitivity to external Qi is low at the moment because I’m consolidating - so to be honest I probably wouldn’t experience much anyway.

 

Yesterday tried to absorb stress out of my friend through energy. Apparently when i was asleep, i began coughing a lot and then started shaking as if having a seizure for 30-45 sec. Then i layed in bed and i breathed through my nose for a few minutes until calm. I have to admit that i don't remember it that well and probably only remember after the seizure. I guess i also wanted to continually lay my head off the bed. I would also stand on all fours and would roll over. Then slept.

This is all told to me, i don't remember any of it clearly.

 

edit: i remember earl gray recommended the gayatri mantra. I will do this in the meantime.

Is there anything i should/can do?

Edited June 29, 2019 by welkin

[Spotless]

Freeform has brought up an important point that is far more real than would generally be assumed -but it does bring with it real concerns:

 

Great “physical changes” take place - they are on going and incredibly expansive and do not from my experience end in any way. Awakening and Abiding In Awakening however massive the Awakening - and aside from residuals continuing to fall away - the subtle body expanses can and will continue far beyond already ridiculous levels both exquisitely subtle and not at all subtle.

They may subside for time - mass portions of many of the more gross physical changes/fixtures may completely fall away - but if “One continues” massive continuous subtle body expanses continue relentlessly in impossible palpable specific ways.

 

Concern as to judgement of these things and at what point judgement is beyond one’s teacher or delusion has set upon an Awareness - this is tough stuff and yet good to examine.

 

—-

 

The “heart” con is as easy as the “head” con - and for that matter we should include the “sex” con:

 

I have referred to them as cons because each is easy to overtake one’s progress and con one into its trappings of delusion.

 

The heart con is one if the most subtle cons - and each con mentioned has unmistakable merit - it is loss in the merits that is the con.

And the merits at the very highest levels can me mesmerizing while in complete clarity - (and this is what is so “devastating”)

 

In both the Sex con and the Heart con we have “transmission” - it is incontrovertible - palpable - recognizable - physically and subtle body powerful. Lofty in comparison to nearly anything comprehensible from a transmission standpoint and playing with it and empowerment within it is to often lose oneself to it/the teaching of it/ assumptions in it / position in it/ a winking knowing that one is IN God with it/ .........

 

And nothing is easier than to find complete blessing in these findings and from those to whom you use transmission.

 

In the Heart con we find four general levels - the lower- the Psychic - the Oneness and the Awakened.

 

The Oneness and Awakened May occur together - the Awakened is the higher.

 

Above these general levels is that which is more akin to what Enlightenment is pointing at - it is incorporation of head, heart and root - in stillness with all “assets” in Light.

 

This is Central Channel - One Channel - One Axis

 

One Axis is a far better image experience vs “channel”.

 

It will evolve as well - but changes decisively as fusions of main channels dissolve and become one.

 

Massive changes physically within the gross and subtle bodies to the head then heart and then again head - once root has been established.

 

The Central Axis becomes by far the inclusive All for the previously divided main centers - at which point  Awareness along the Axis is the Awareness of all centers without localization unless one wishes to expand particularly within one (but no longer compartmentalized to its reduction or sublime natures).

 

Stillness is non-inertia potential - it is endless Compassion - Never Ending Acceptance.

 

it is heat that is cool and cool that is not cold.

 

 

[rideforever]

It is unclear to me how physical immortality is possible, the body would have to be endlessly replenished.  You could have very high power but it would have to be maintained continuously and would be in continuous conflict with the rest of the manifest world.

 

Non-physical immortality requires awakening and then surrender and so total rest, total absence, and this can finally reach into the personality which will also be illuminated for its period of existence.   That is easy to understand, knowing yourself you just fully let go into the ocean.

 

Physical immortality is trying to create a structure here that remains here, but that seems to me to be very unnatural, like a witch who uses her magic to disguise her age.

 

This "world" is not very good, better to leave even if it requires the loss of the body personality and memories ... you, the real you, would still be you.   And in that is what you want isn't it ?
How many flavours of ice-cream are there in the world ?

The peace of surrender ... isn't everyone exhausted enough already.
I am anyway.

I can't imagine trying to keep myself powered for all eternity and maintain myself here, enough already.

Maybe I don't understand the principles, don't know.

 

Edited June 29, 2019 by rideforever

[dawei]

14 hours ago, welkin said:

 

Yesterday tried to absorb stress out of my friend through energy. Apparently when i was asleep, i began coughing a lot and then started shaking as if having a seizure for 30-45 sec. Then i layed in bed and i breathed through my nose for a few minutes until calm. I have to admit that i don't remember it that well and probably only remember after the seizure. I guess i also wanted to continually lay my head off the bed. I would also stand on all fours and would roll over. Then slept.

This is all told to me, i don't remember any of it clearly.

 

edit: i remember earl gray recommended the gayatri mantra. I will do this in the meantime.

Is there anything i should/can do?

 

In Medical Qigong I was taught, you never absorb another's energy... you can pull it out but then shake it off; you can let it flow through and out of you.  The three principles were:  Purge, tonify, regulate.  Just pulling it out can leave a void or imbalance behind.   Leaving it now in you can cause an imbalance too.

 

In more recent methods instead,  while there may be an energy loop of transmitting and receiving, there is nothing about absortion.  I might feel a throat issue on another but I am not intentionally taking it on but sensing it.  Instead, I would bring them to an expanded space where their energy can release more freely.   

[Limahong]

On 10/23/2018 at 6:01 AM, KuroShiro said:

It seems to start with truly loving yourself, it grows from there.

 

Hi KuroShiro,

 

Yes... and you are your Master.

 

- Anand

 

[Limahong]

On 10/23/2018 at 2:19 PM, Cheshire Cat said:

Love isn't the most powerful force in the universe and it's not the fundamental nature of your mind. 

This is just ignorance handed down from one generation to the next. 

 

Hi CC,

 

Yes... love is not the fundamental nature of your mind.

 

It can end up in marriage, separation, divorce...

 

 

- Anand

 

[Limahong]

4 hours ago, dawei said:

Instead, I would bring them to an expanded space where their energy can release more freely.   

 

Hi dawei,

 

Yes... facilitate the awareness of an expanded space where their energy can release more freely.

 

Energy follows intention/attention...

 

 

 

- Anand

 

[Limahong]

On 10/23/2018 at 3:42 PM, johndoe2012 said:

Divine Love is endless, infinite and does not have any requirements.

 

Om

 

 

[Limahong]

On 11/1/2018 at 12:55 AM, freeform said:

The enlightened Daoist masters left classical texts.

 

Hi freeform,

 

It depends on whether if I want to go backward or forward...

 

I prefer...

 

 

 

- Anand

 

[welkin]

5 hours ago, dawei said:

 

In Medical Qigong I was taught, you never absorb another's energy... you can pull it out but then shake it off; you can let it flow through and out of you.  The three principles were:  Purge, tonify, regulate.  Just pulling it out can leave a void or imbalance behind.   Leaving it now in you can cause an imbalance too.

 

In more recent methods instead,  while there may be an energy loop of transmitting and receiving, there is nothing about absortion.  I might feel a throat issue on another but I am not intentionally taking it on but sensing it.  Instead, I would bring them to an expanded space where their energy can release more freely.   

 

i wouldn't be surprised if i'm confusing absorption or looping. The thing is it was fairly quick maybe like 20 seconds. I stopped as soon as i felt something in the same area i was touching.

What mainly scares me is that i was supposedly having a seizure or something like it. The main reason i was doing this is because that other person has a lot of issues inside. And i was somehow trying to alleviate it.

 

 

i will look into purging, tonifying, and regulating.

[Limahong]

6 minutes ago, welkin said:

The main reason i was doing this is because that other person has a lot of issues inside. And i was somehow trying to alleviate it.

 

Hi welkin,

 

I am not into Medical Qigong but I can sense where you are coming from.

 

When it comes to extending a helping hand to others ~ I always check my intention/attention.

 

My help at alleviation must be better AFTER than BEFORE... otherwise I will stop.

 

But I will not stop that easily... I will consult as you are doing now.

 

- Anand