[DDJ Meaning] Chapter 65

[dawei]

David Hinton 2002

65

Ancient masters of Way
never enlightened people.
They kept people simple-minded.
It's impossible to govern
once you've filled people with knowing.
Use knowing to govern
and you plunder the nation,
but use not-knowing to govern
and you enrich the nation.
Once you understand this, the pattern is clear,
and always understanding the pattern is called dark-enigma Integrity.
Dark-enigma Integrity is deep and distant, is the return of things
back into the vast harmony.

 

 

Dwight Goddard 1919
65

In the olden days those who obeyed the spirit of Tao did not enlighten the people but kept them simple hearted.
The reason people are difficult to govern is because of their smartness; likewise to govern a people with guile is a curse; and to govern them with simplicity is a blessing. 
He who remembers these two things is a model ruler. Always to follow this standard and rule is teh, the profound.
Profound teh is deep indeed and far reaching. 
The very opposite of common things, but by it one obtains obedient subjects.

 

 

Bradford Hatcher 2005

65

Those ancients skilled at practicing the way
Did not try to enlighten the people
(But) would have tried to simplify them
The difficulties of governing the people
Are due to their great cleverness
And so to use cleverness in governing a realm
Is an injury to the realm
To avoid using cleverness in governing a realm
Is a favor to the realm
Those who comprehend both of these
Also examine for patterns
Always to know to look for patterns
May be called a mystic power
A mystic power so deep & so far reaching
(As) to help creation to turn itself around
Natural succession then reaches perfect harmony
 

 

Wing-Tsit Chan 1963
65 

In ancient times those who practiced Tao well Did not seek to enlighten people, but to make them ignorant. 
People are difficult to govern because they have too much knowledge. Therefore he who rules the state through knowledge is a robber of the state; He who rules a state not through knowledge is a blessing to the state. 
One who knows these two things also (knows) the standard. Always to know the standard is called profound and secret virtue. 
Virtue becomes deep and far-reaching, And with it all things return to their original state. Then complete harmony will be reached. 

 

 

Gu Zhengku 1993

65

Those ancient men of the profound Tao
Did not use the Tao to enlighten the people
But use the Tao to make them simple.
The people are unruly
Because they are too clever.
Thus to govern a state by cleverness
Is bound to ruin the state;
Not to govern the state by cleverness
Is a blessing to the state.
These are two models of government;
Keeping the knowledge of these two models
Is known as the mysterious virtue.
The mysterious virtue is profound and far-reaching,
Running counter to concrete things.
At their extremes there is the most complete conformity to nature.

 

Ch'u Ta-Kao 1904
65

In olden times the best practitioners of Tao did not use it to awaken people to knowledge,
But used it to restore them to simplicity.
People are difficult to govern because they have much knowledge.
Therefore to govern the country by increasing the people's knowledge is to be the destroyer of the country;
To govern the country by decreasing knowledge is to be the blesser of the country.
To be acquainted with these two ways is to know the standard;
To keep the standard always in mind is to have sublime virtue.
Sublime virtue is infinitely deep and wide.
It goes to reverse all things;
And so it attains perfect peace.

 

 

Flowing Hands 1987
65
When the first Sage became enlightened and he became
at one with the Dao, he did not try and influence others.
For he understood the ways of all things.
Why is it difficult to rule others?
Because people try to be clever and restrict and influence other people's lives.
These people are intellectuals who know nothing
of the ways of nature, and so they think they are great.
But in reality they are small-minded moralists.
If man was left alone and he remained simple in his ways, is there any need for
governments?
Those who rule the land but are never seen or heard, or their power extended, are a blessing
to the people.
For their title is without substance, and the people are left to rule themselves.
Knowing simplicity and knowing the ways of nature, one can be without restrictions.
Return to simplicity, rid yourselves of laws and bars and enjoy a good and peaceful life.
But intellectuals will always want to interfere, and the greedy and cunning will always want
to exploit.

[Marblehead]

Keeping the people ignorant sounds pretty negative but we are talking about manipulative knowledge as opposed to wisdom.

 

[OldDog]

Perhaps the sages understood that to undertake to inform the people was in itself manipulation. 

 

Its not that the sages made the people ignorant ... they chose to leave them to their simple ways. 

 

To undertake an action is to have intent. Having intent often results in being against the natural flow of things, even if inadvertently. Once something is set in motion (intent) who can tell what the outcome will be ... even the greatest minds wrestle with the possibilities. 

 

Great caution in action is always necessary. Perhaps that is why the sages would rather trust to the Dao for the unfolding of things. 

[nestentrie]

If there is nothing to pity, there is nothing to teach.

[dawei]

On 10/28/2018 at 5:44 AM, Marblehead said:

Keeping the people ignorant sounds pretty negative but we are talking about manipulative knowledge as opposed to wisdom.

 

 

That is a western mindset.  Ask a chinese the meaning

[dawei]

here is why I like Ch'u Ta-Kao 1904
65

In olden times the best practitioners of Tao did not use it to awaken people to knowledge,
But used it to restore them to simplicity.

 

restore them to simplicity.... 

 

Flowing Hands presents a more thorough journey of the Sage's way with regards to mankind. 

[Jeff]

17 minutes ago, dawei said:

here is why I like Ch'u Ta-Kao 1904
65

In olden times the best practitioners of Tao did not use it to awaken people to knowledge,
But used it to restore them to simplicity.

 

restore them to simplicity.... 

 

Flowing Hands presents a more thorough journey of the Sage's way with regards to mankind. 

 

That statement seems to be huge departure from Flowing Hands version.  Ta-kao says "restore them to simplicity", stating an active doing, while SFH version seems to leave the people alone (and not interfere).

[dawei]

2 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

That statement seems to be huge departure from Flowing Hands version.  Ta-kao says "restore them to simplicity", stating an active doing, while SFH version seems to leave the people alone (and not interfere).

 

Isn't leaving them alone restoring them ?

 

like a transmission interaction sense ? 

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, dawei said:

 

Isn't leaving them alone restoring them ?

 

like a transmission interaction sense ? 

 

Dont think I understand your point?  We have...

 

In olden times the best practitioners of Tao did not use it to awaken people to knowledge, But used it to restore them to simplicity.

 

and

 

When the first Sage became enlightened and he became at one with the Dao, he did not try and influence others.

 

One version seems to seems to say they used the Tao on others to "restore them to simplicity", while the other say the opposite with "did not try and influence others".  One is manipulating, the other leaving alone.

 

Personally, I like the Feng version best for this chapter. It is also much closer to SFH's concept...

 

In the beginning those who knew the Tao did not try to enlighten others, But kept it hidden.

 

[dawei]

3 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Dont think I understand your point?  We have...

 

In olden times the best practitioners of Tao did not use it to awaken people to knowledge, But used it to restore them to simplicity.

 

and

 

When the first Sage became enlightened and he became at one with the Dao, he did not try and influence others.

 

One version seems to seems to say they used the Tao on others to "restore them to simplicity", while the other say the opposite with "did not try and influence others".  One is manipulating, the other leaving alone.

 

Personally, I like the Feng version best for this chapter. It is also much closer to SFH's concept...

 

In the beginning those who knew the Tao did not try to enlighten others, But kept it hidden.

 

 

True on wording, the word 'using' is not in the chinese, so I saw past that.  I found his translation was trying to explain it in this way:

 

In olden times the best practitioners of Tao did not use it to awaken people to knowledge,
But used it to restore them to simplicity.

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

True on wording, the word 'using' is not in the chinese, so I saw past that.  I found his translation was trying to explain it in this way:

 

In olden times the best practitioners of Tao did not use it to awaken people to knowledge,
But used it to restore them to simplicity.

 

Really, seems like quite a stretch with your "deleting".  You are now saying it is...

 

In olden times the best practitioners of Tao awaken people to knowledge, to restore them to simplicity.

 

The translation specifically states "did not use it to" and you are mentally deleting that part to turn it into a positive where they now awaken people to knowledge? This seems to be in complete contrast to all of the versions posted.

[dawei]

I just saw past his words to a meaning.  Knowing how chinese characters can mean a range of meanings.  I think he was close and I got closer using his translation.    So, I've corrected his translation , maybe

 

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, dawei said:

I just saw past his words to a meaning.  Knowing how chinese characters can mean a range of meanings.  I think he was close and I got closer using his translation.    So, I've corrected his translation , maybe

 

 

So your version is...

 

In olden times the best practitioners of Tao awaken people to knowledge, to restore them to simplicity.

 

Then for the contrast, here is my version of the line...

 

In the beginning those who knew the Tao did not try to teach others knowledge of it, But kept it hidden. 

 

And that "hidden" relates directly to chapter 6 with...

 

SIX

The valley spirit never dies;

It is the woman, primal mother.

Her gateway is the root of heaven and earth.

It is like a veil barely seen. (Hidden)

Use it; it will never fail.

 

[dawei]

I would agree it is hidden if one's eyes (soul eyes) are not able to perceive it.  Yet chapter 1 from FLowing hands:

 

Ever desireless, one can feel (heart) the mystery.
Ever desiring, one can see its manifestations.

 

With the heart, they will find mystery or manifest.   

 

 

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, dawei said:

I would agree it is hidden if one's eyes (soul eyes) are not able to perceive it.  Yet chapter 1 from FLowing hands:

 

Ever desireless, one can feel (heart) the mystery.
Ever desiring, one can see its manifestations.

 

With the heart, they will find mystery or manifest.   

 

 

Yes, even "soul eyes" cannot see it.  That may be why Flowing Hand's version says highlights that one can feel (it in the heart), but seeing is a manifestation of desiring (mind).

[Marblehead]

8 hours ago, dawei said:

 

That is a western mindset.  Ask a chinese the meaning

I still like my interpretation.

 

I am, after all, a Westerner.

 

A Neanderthal at that.

 

[flowing hands]

I think what Li Erh was implying is that when a sage became 'realized' or enlightened, they knew that to tell others would be the start of religion. When religion starts the Dao is lost. So he/she allows people to be uninformed and so are more likely to live a simpler life and more in keeping with the Dao.

[Marblehead]

Valid perspective, I think.

 

Not that I am against religion but I am against the institutions of religion.

 

[Rara]

On 03/11/2018 at 10:33 AM, flowing hands said:

I think what Li Erh was implying is that when a sage became 'realized' or enlightened, they knew that to tell others would be the start of religion. When religion starts the Dao is lost. So he/she allows people to be uninformed and so are more likely to live a simpler life and more in keeping with the Dao.

 

I think this is close, yes. I think the main trouble is that it creates "guru culture" like we see nowadays.

 

My Facebook feed gets the odd Osho quote thrown about, as an example. Clearly this person thinks they have their Way and good for them. But firstly, is it really the Way that they're on? Second, what benefit does posting all this stuff to everybody on their friends list really achieve? Everybody else is busy posting photos of their kids, promoting a political movement, sharing funny memes etc.

 

If a sage were to announce he or she possessed the Way and tried to enlighten the people, that would be quite the task. Like a politician/PM/president...how much do we really listen. Have they not created more scepticism than trust?

[Sketch]

• Verse Sixty Five

 

The benefit of following

This trail, this trail marker, 

This path of wisdom, this Daoism

If I have to call it that,

It’s not for everybody.

 

Minds have different tendencies; some people are just stupid.

 

Stupid people influence each other, when they get ideas. They confuse one another, showing off their wisdom.

 

When all this knowledge and wisdom is applied to running a country,

It sabotages the country.

 

The country (or any other institution) that is not run by such wisdom and knowledge is blessed or lucky, take your pick.

 

Being able to tell people who are judging conditions for themselves

From the ones who are following mass confusion

And keeping up with trends

Is a useful technique.

 

Learn it; this technique is part of the 

Mysterious means of deciding what to do

 

The ability to make these simple decisions can seem 

Mysterious and distant.

It can even seem to go against reason.

This is the advantage of developing resolve

And self discipline.