The Dao Trumps

[wandelaar]

Maybe we should change the name of this forum into The Dao Trumps? When I look at 'Activity' I see that most time and energy is invested in debating the excellence or deplorability of Trump. And with what result? Has anybody learned something that changed or nuanced his point of view?

[Marblehead]

No, we don't need a name change.

 

But we do need a lot more respect for the office that Trump is officiating.

 

I have learned that too many people take politics too seriously, especially those who can do nothing about the current state of affairs.

 

 

[wandelaar]

33 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

But we do need a lot more respect for the office that Trump is officiating.

 

And did the large amounts of time and energy that are invested in the Trump thread help that come about? Or did it rather lead to the effect that the Bums posting in that topic become all the more convinced of the correctness of their own political points of view, as is to be expected on account of the backfire effect?

 

In my opinion the Trump thread is a clear example of not knowing when to stop, and consequently achieving the opposite of what one wants. And that goes for both camps in the discussion.

[Stosh]

"All energy work and no play makes Jack a dull boy" 

Which is to suggest that the useless things one does may be considered a type of play.

[wandelaar]

When we could discuss politics with a playful attitude, that would be fun. But can we?

[Marblehead]

28 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

When we could discuss politics with a playful attitude, that would be fun. But can we?

I thought that's what I've been doing all along.

 

[ilumairen]

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

When we could discuss politics with a playful attitude, that would be fun. But can we?

 

Sometimes it is a bit playful in the thread referred to. 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

Politics are great for people not satisfied with their own lives. Politics are also great for comedians. Politics are great for making america great again when ever the not great america happened I think it was during the last election. 

 

Politics are great for special interest groups and corporations.

 

For the people by the people is a great way of saying look the other way or SQUIRREL!!

 

Politics are a great way to be more interested in money rather then humanity as a whole.

 

Politics are a great way to cut up reality, separate people  and focus on self interest.

 

The tao bums having no interest can only laugh and lets it all go.

 

What if England won the war and America was British that would be horrible.Then we would have to talk about parliament how not funny would that be?

[ilumairen]

6 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Maybe we should change the name of this forum into The Dao Trumps? When I look at 'Activity' I see that most time and energy is invested in debating the excellence or deplorability of Trump. And with what result? Has anybody learned something that changed or nuanced his point of view?

 

And I remember walking away from the spirituality forums I was a member of around 15 years ago because it seemed a bunch of hot air. 

 

It's ok to determine where one wishes to spend their own time and energy. 

[ilumairen]

42 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

Politics are great for people not satisfied with their own lives. Politics are also great for comedians. Politics are great for making america great again when ever the not great america happened I think it was during the last election. 

 

Politics are great for special interest groups and corporations.

 

For the people by the people is a great way of saying look the other way or SQUIRREL!!

 

Politics are a great way to be more interested in money rather then humanity as a whole.

 

Politics are a great way to cut up reality, separate people  and focus on self interest.

 

The tao bums having no interest can only laugh and lets it all go.

 

What if England won the war and America was British that would be horrible.Then we would have to talk about parliament how not funny would that be?

 

Politics are a fact of life. I've decided I'd like to be informed. And engage in the discussion here. 

 

 

[Aetherous]

6 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Has anybody learned something that changed or nuanced his point of view?

 

Absolutely. I can even say I changed my mind about a few things.

 

One of them (you're not going to like hearing this) is that I went from strongly anti-Trump, thinking it was laughable he was a candidate, and that if our country voted him in we'd get what we deserved...to thinking he was the best man for the job, and today thinking he's a fine President.

I participate in the rest of the forum just as I do in the political threads, since those other subjects are really what I tend to be passionate about.

Regarding politics: "One of the penalties of refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato. I think it's important to stay informed, and sometimes to debate in order to learn new things, as well as teach others new things.

Politics brings out some of the worst in human nature, and some of the most shameless people participate in it. Sometimes it makes you behave shamelessly, if you don't watch yourself. Sometimes you need to take a break to regain your faith in humanity. None of these are reasons for quitting, and letting shameless inhumane people run everything. Giving up is not a virtue.

[wandelaar]

Thanks for all the comments. It's good to hear what others think about all this. So instead of joining in the discussion I will just read and think about what others have to say here.

 

But one thing I want to say: politics are important, and I try to keep informed myself. So don't worry about that.

[ilumairen]

 

2 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

But one thing I want to say: politics are important, and I try to keep informed myself. So don't worry about that.

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

2 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

Politics are a fact of life. I've decided I'd like to be informed. And engage in the discussion here. 

 

 

As long as politics make your life better who could argue that.

[ilumairen]

8 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

As long as politics make your life better who could argue that.

 

My life is neither better nor worse for expanding my knowledge of politics both past and present. 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

34 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

My life is neither better nor worse for expanding my knowledge of politics both past and present. 

 

There is no need to verify a position with me, it is not politics.

 

If politicians still wore wigs or at least  powdered their hair to show their social ranking I might be more interested. The marriage of politics that we have all agreed to be part of and go along with for our owners interest is always for better or worse.

[windwalker]

8 hours ago, wandelaar said:

In my opinion the Trump thread is a clear example of not knowing when to stop, and consequently achieving the opposite of what one wants. And that goes for both camps in the discussion.

 

Its a clear example of people who share an interest nothing more.

I do find it odd that those who choose not to participate comment on those who do

suggesting that they can not or do not know when to stop....what it achieves is self evident. 

 

odd isn't it,  complaining about a thread that is active  over those that are inactive....instead of making a thread themselves

that might start to become more active....and maybe shift the focus that some  feel has changed. 

 

 

[windwalker]

5 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

What if England won the war and America was British that would be horrible.Then we would have to talk about parliament how not funny would that be?

 

When do you think China will let Taiwan know its time is up,  time to come home.

 

[wandelaar]

12 minutes ago, windwalker said:

Its a clear example of people who share an interest nothing more.

I do find it odd that those who choose not to participate comment on those who do

suggesting that they can not or do not know when to stop....what it achieves is self evident. 

 

odd isn't it,  complaining about a thread that is active  over those that are inactive....instead of making a thread themselves

that might start to become more active....and maybe shift the focus that some  feel has changed.

 

Very odd, very very odd!

[LAOLONG]

[wandelaar]

I have again put some time in reading parts of the 'Talk Trump'-topic to see whether I am wrong after all, and whether the topic could still be useful, interesting and/or funny to participate in. But no - I am not joining the discussion. It's just the biased piling up of (pseudo)arguments for ones own preconceived opinions (while largely ignoring to seriously consider the arguments of the other camp) one sees in most political discussions. I have seen enough of that in my younger days. Apparently Aetherous changed his mind about Trump, so I cannot say that the discussion was completely futile. But my overall impression remains that there is no real discussion going on. It is all about winning the argument (by whatever means), and not about getting to the truth of the matter. And as usual in such heated discussions fallacious arguments abound. And the backfire effect is still in place, although one cannot rule out the occurrence of an occasional exception as the case of Aetherous proves.

 

It would give me a full-time job if I did step into the 'Talk Trump'-thread, and started correcting all the nonsense I found there. But that would only fire up the efforts of those I criticized, to criticize me. And as I would doubtlessly be in the minority I wouldn't have the time and energy to decently answer and consider all the criticisms hurled at me. So it would be a losing battle no matter whether I was right or wrong. Better not to start at all. There are much better ways to keep myself informed about political topics than (heated) internet discussions.

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by wandelaar

[Marblehead]

Well, I'm not trying to win an argument in that thread because I know it is impossible to do so.  There will be no winners or losers.

 

My main purpose is to try to insure that our president get the respect he deserves.

 

Sure, there are reason to not like him.  I don't hold to most of the reasons being expressed in the thread.

 

He is doing the best he can considering his background and the other politicians he has to work with.

 

And really, I'm not even expecting any additional enlightenment from interacting in the thread.  I am a Conservative.  Trump is representing me in that regard.

 

 

[wandelaar]

9 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Well, I'm not trying to win an argument in that thread because I know it is impossible to do so.  There will be no winners or losers.

 

There will be some rare cases like Aetherous , but generally people don't change their political opinion because of online discussions. More often they become more convinced of their political opinions. 

 

9 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

My main purpose is to try to insure that our president get the respect he deserves.

 

But in that you will not succeed, because - as I said - generally people don't change their political opinion because of online discussions. And you agreed to that! So why do you think it is different for the respect you think Trump deserves.

 

9 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Sure, there are reason to not like him.  I don't hold to most of the reasons being expressed in the thread.

 

He is doing the best he can considering his background and the other politicians he has to work with.

 

Very few people are doing something wrong because they think it is wrong. So Trump is also probably thinking that he is doing the right  thing.

 

9 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

And really, I'm not even expecting any additional enlightenment from interacting in the thread.  I am a Conservative.  Trump is representing me in that regard.

 

Apart from politics maybe our main difference in this is that I no longer (or not yet again) see the playful aspect of interacting in political discussions. Did you always like political discussions? Or was there a in between time when you rather avoided them?

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

There will be some rare cases like Aetherous , but generally people don't change their political opinion because of online discussions. More often they become more convinced of their political opinions.

You are correct.  There are no absolutes.  Except that change is constant.

 

2 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

But in that you will not succeed, because - as I said - generally people don't change their political opinion because of online discussions. And you agreed to that! So why do you think it is different for the respect you think Trump deserves.

Because if I continue to counter posts that present him in a negative aspect my counter post will be the last post read and that will remain in the mind longer than what was read prior to my post.

 

2 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Very few people are doing something wrong because they think it is wrong. So Trump is also probably thinking that he is doing the right  thing.

Well, sure, Trump thinks he is doing the right thing.  He selected his platform, was elected based on is platform (certainly not his personality) and he is putting a lot of effort into accomplish the items on his platform.

 

2 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Apart from politics maybe our main difference in this is that I no longer (or not yet again) see the playful aspect of interacting in political discussions. Did you always like political discussions? Or was there a in between time when you rather avoided them?

I enjoy discussing politics as long as we who are in the discussion speak "with" the others and not just "at" the others.  

 

I had no interest in politics until after I joined the Army.  But I was already a Conservative even though I didn't know it as I had never thought about it.  My interests vary depending on which Party is in the White House and Congress.  When the Democrats are in control I pretty much avoid discussions because too many of my thoughts are negative.  And then there are some Republicans I have a hard time agreeing with.  So mostly I just remain silent.  (I didn't like either of the Bushes or the Tea Party.)

 

 

[windwalker]

Actually I don't view the trunk thread as a political thread.

 

I think it reflects ideologies and viewpoints, contrasted with one's own view of reality.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by windwalker