The Dao Trumps

[s1va]

2 minutes ago, dawei said:

I don't see anything turning the forum away from the main focus of Taoism and Spirituality.

 

I think this topic raises a genuine question, based on the amount of activity and attention the O-G Ave and political topics get in the recent times compared to the spiritual topics.

 

Like the analogy I gave where I talked about designating a room for meditation and spiritual activities in a person's house.  Would it make sense if most of the actual activities several times do not correspond to what that place is set aside for.

 

More importantly, people come to such spiritual sites to get away from the obsessive bombarding of political news and social media activities.  Many come looking for help.  To me, it's all about the role we way and how we add value to those coming here seeking help and guidance.

 

When newcomers see such heavy activity in Trump talk, often with personal innuendos and attacks against each other, a) they might think this place is no better than any other and leave, or   b.) get sucked into the conversation themselves and get carried away.

[Aetherous]

(I'll try to make this my final post in this thread...simply because I don't like the idea of threads that discuss other threads. I think it's a waste of time, and cultivates a sense of being gossipy, rather than genuinely participating in discussion. I also don't want to seem more argumentative against s1va than I really am...I actually haven't noticed many of their posts until now, so I don't know this person. From my perspective, I'm saying my piece that needs to be said, and after that, both parties go back to being neutral and open to each other/not holding grudges. But hey, that's just how I operate.)

About this idea:

 

6 minutes ago, s1va said:

If we set aside a room in our house for prayer, meditation or spiritual activities, it would make sense to primarily use that place for that purpose.  So that eventually that place itself is charged with spiritual energy.  This forum is a virtual space.  If we let a TV run in that prayer or meditation room, 10 hours a day with shows from CNN or Fox, it won't be conducive to some.

 

The entire rest of the forum is for such purposes.

Furthermore, as a staff member, you should recognize that this forum has evolved over years into the form it currently is in - where there's a place for off topic discussion, and even a further place for political and other challenging discussion. To suggest that only spiritual discussion take place on this entire site, so as to make the site be "charged with spiritual energy"...well that's a pretty radical idea which goes against the trial and error process we've already been through to get the site to this point. This isn't a temple. This is a discussion forum for people with an interest in Daoism or other similar subjects.

Also, consider that it's a balanced form of spiritual cultivation to do it in relationship to reality, and not as an escape from reality. This is not to say that we should meditate while Fox News is playing in the background (although if you can legitimately do that, wow)...but it is to say, metaphorically, it's a little too intense to refuse to have a TV in your living room simply because you want to meditate in your bedroom.

Just focus on what you like. Even as spiritual cultivators, we have to live in the world, filled with people ideas places things we dislike. You can't change that. There is some hope of changing yourself, though. This is the correct view of spiritual cultivation.

The Wudang temple doesn't attempt to destroy nearby cities so that the temple can radiate its spiritual energy better.

It's my personal view, that as more seasoned practitioners (though not necessarily advanced), we have a duty to teach beginners what spiritual cultivation is in an appropriate way. The above is the appropriate view. Spiritual escapism is the wrong idea of cultivation, and would lead beginners astray.

So even the fact that political discussion is taking place here is a lesson for beginners coming here for spiritual help. It helps ground them, and lets them realize that seasoned cultivators care about society and don't fly off to heaven, and they don't simply ignore the issues. Also that seasoned cultivators can tolerate others, and other opinions.

So yeah...these are my thoughts regarding that thread, and ideas about it.
 

Quote

 

Just for your information: The moderators don't need to collaborate with anyone to steer a conversation in the right direction, issue a warning, or even suspend a member who breaks any terms of the site up to 3 days.  Though I generally try to discuss with others  (because of my own choice) before taking any such action, other moderators taken such action when  it is truly warranted all the time.

 

If you want, I can quote the portions from the terms and conditions that explains this in detail.

 

 

By "steer a conversation" in this case, I meant something like trying to shut down the Talk Trump thread. But I see what you mean, and agree...no need to spend your time quoting portions.

I wasn't referencing suspensions, and I hope that's not on your mind simply because I told you to "focus on yourself".

[s1va]

2 minutes ago, Kar3n said:

Off grid was created to keep more controversial topics, like politics, out of the pit. There is no need for the Trump thread to be pitted. It is not visible to the public nor is it archived by bots.

 

Trying to control the flow or content of discussion based on what we perceive to be "spiritual" or not, damaging to cultivation or outside of our personal beliefsfalls well outside of the parameters of moderating the bums.

 

I was not advocating it to be pitted.  Though I would really like for some things to change.  So, I was just making a personal appeal to anyone that cares to listen to me,  to pause and look at their activities, and see if it is truly conducive and helpful to others and to the forum as a whole.

 

If this place is mostly about political debates only as it is these days, then it would not make a lot of sense for me personally to be an ongoing part of it.  That is something I need to think and decide for myself, whether I want to be part of something that is mostly about political discussions and debates with a lot of trading insults back and forth.

 

I think the staff and moderators have the responsibility in providing larger directions to the entire forum, or to keep the spirit of the conversations in line with the reasons why this site exists.

[wandelaar]

2 minutes ago, dawei said:

Off-Grid is not public but only viewed by signed in members.

 

Then half of my proposal is already realized.

 

2 minutes ago, dawei said:

I don't see anything turning the forum away from the main focus of Taoism and Spirituality.

 

Time and energy spent on participating in the Trump thread can no longer be spend on other topics of a more Taoist and/or spiritual nature. So the obsessive involvement in the Trump thread must lead to a change of focus.

 

A further issue are the posts that show up in "Activity". If the posts in Off-Grid are also only invisible by signed in members than the other half of my proposal is also already realized.

 

Thanks for the information.

[s1va]

12 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

By "steer a conversation" in this case, I meant something like trying to shut down the Talk Trump thread. But I see what you mean, and agree...no need to spend your time quoting portions.

I wasn't referencing suspensions, and I hope that's not on your mind simply because I told you to "focus on yourself".

 

Not at all my friend   I would think 100 times and if possible consult with others, if I were to suspend someone. Doesn't matter to me if that member just joined today or been here for 15 years!  I have not suspended a single member as moderator so far.  I even issue warnings very rarely.  To be clear, I hate such actions personally like suspending members and agree to it reluctantly as a very last resort someone's.  Those that are in staff know my positions in these subjects.  I am generally the most conservative when it comes to taking actions against any member.

 

Your words or what you said to me truly had no impact on me.  Much Love

 

[Aetherous]

1 minute ago, s1va said:

Much Love

 

Very nice. Genuinely back in response.

[Pilgrim]

You are welcome. 

15 minutes ago, s1va said:

My thoughts and some others were just about sheer amount of activity in this thread, and the problems that invariably arise from these heated political discussions, resulting in some type of insults and then later as reports to staff!

 

Heated? There has been lots of discussion and people being honest and getting on each others nerves a bit but I would hardly define the discussions as heated. I will admit I have had too much fun amusing myself and Kar3n asked me to reign it in a modify a post but no one in that thread has really gone too far. 

 

I would think the sheer amount of activity would be good in a few aspects. 

 

#1. Does this site not rely on advertisement for a portion of it's operational aspect?

 

#2. The thread is very real, people in my observation try to separate spirituality from the world to one degree or another and that is a false path. Spirituality is the world down in the dirt and the sweat of this world this world and all of its conflicts, ugliness beauty and harmony are spiritual.

 

#3. In that Trump thread people are getting in touch with what they are passionate about and are engaged. People are also growing up and developing from that thread, including myself. I maintain that when you are certain and passionate about something to the point where you feel like screaming and you learn instead to come back off the ledge and regain your equanimity and discuss instead of rant that a growth has occurred. A very real one.

 

#4. That thread is a "Deep Dive" not a sanitary one of like minded individuals or ones who have agreed to certain Ism's or agree upon certain immutable truths. This is a deep dive into raw truth of peoples feelings. It is the difference between swimming in a pool and a hurricane whipped ocean at times.

 

Some people like to engage in sanitary "Deep Dives" the Deep Dives occurring in the Trump Thread is more visceral, more honest, less fanciful and all the false airs are dropped, very honest. Here souls are connecting in a very real way and benefiting from the contact growing from the interaction. 

 

Some are learning that the ways they were indoctrinated due to environment are not immutable. Some are learning how to become free of gender bigotry and domination. Some are so interested in the stories that they are researching and educating themselves and others and all are getting an education as to how the nation works.

 

I have met new personalities and enjoy them some I thought ewwww I don't care for so much I really like a lot. So here is the spiritual aspect of that thread. It is very basic and down to earth. Honest interaction. 

 

32 minutes ago, s1va said:

If we set aside a room in our house for prayer, meditation or spiritual activities, it would make sense to primarily use that place for that purpose.  So that eventually that place itself is charged with spiritual energy.

 

That is trying to control things and is not real. Everything is spiritual already the energy comes from stillness and silence and there was never a place or a time where it is not already present. There is no need to build sanctuaries or holy spots or attempt to imbue it with a certain quality or " Spiritual Energy"  your true sanctuary is equally in the heart of the storm as it is at the alter or the shrine. Equally in celibacy and the embrace of your lover. 

 

To actualize this in life wherever and however you find yourself is very difficult and those that disagree should hold back judgement until their next significant life altering even occurs.

 

38 minutes ago, s1va said:

This forum is a virtual space.  If we let a TV run in that prayer or meditation room, 10 hours a day with shows from CNN or Fox, it won't be conducive to some.  Personally, it's all fine with me.

 

I am glad you end this paragraph with it is fine with you but doubt that it is.

 

43 minutes ago, s1va said:

Many many people come here to these forums everyday seeking help in Spirituality and many other things

Yet many more are participating actively in the Trump Thread. Like I said it is all spiritual. Besides as a virtual environment that thread is segregated so I don't see the point. People are going to be drawn to what they need most and those that have it to offer will in turn be lead to do so. 

 

Look at your own history and where you are today. You went after things you thought you wanted and did not get them because it was a bad match. Overtime you found what is working with you and others with whom you dive. This is good, is it not?

[Pilgrim]

Oh and OP By creating this thread you have now opened the door to the energy that is propelling the other. The Trump Phenomena is big, very big energy for this entire world at this time in history. To create a thread referencing it has brought you into it. Welcome.

[Kar3n]

1 minute ago, s1va said:

 

I was not advocating it to be pitted.  Though I would really like for some things to change.  So, I was just making a personal appeal to anyone that cares to listen to me,  to pause and look at their activities, and see if it is truly conducive and helpful to others and to the forum as a whole.

 

If this place is mostly about political debates only as it is these days, then it would not make a lot of sense for me personally to be an ongoing part of it.  That is something I need to think and decide for myself, whether I want to be part of something that is mostly about political discussions and debates with a lot of trading insults back and forth.

 

I think the staff and moderators have the responsibility in providing larger directions to the entire forum, or to keep the spirit of the conversations in line with the reasons why this site exists.

There is a natural ebb and flow of discussion on the boards. Some days it is more Daoist, others Buddhist, sometimes Esoteric and right now it is politics in the Trump thread.

 

It is not our duty to appeal to folks to discuss what we want them to, but rather to make sure the rules are adhered to. Our admin has said many times being a mod is a lesson in cultivation. I would take it a step further in stating it is a huge cultivation tool. We have to step away of our personal opinions on topics and beliefs to allow other to discuss what the tide is bringing in. Our duty is to steer discussion toward civility when the need arises and nothing more.

 

I was vehemently against off grid when it was proposed and for some time after it was implemented. Now, I see it as useful in that members can more freely discuss topics and mods aren't all that involved.

 

Take a breath and let folks speak on the topics they desire. It is all in time with the Dao, whether we like it or not.

[dawei]

23 minutes ago, s1va said:

I think this topic raises a genuine question, based on the amount of activity and attention the O-G Ave and political topics get in the recent times compared to the spiritual topics.

 

Like the analogy I gave where I talked about designating a room for meditation and spiritual activities in a person's house.  Would it make sense if most of the actual activities several times do not correspond to what that place is set aside for.

 

More importantly, people come to such spiritual sites to get away from the obsessive bombarding of political news and social media activities.  Many come looking for help.  To me, it's all about the role we way and how we add value to those coming here seeking help and guidance.

 

When newcomers see such heavy activity in Trump talk, often with personal innuendos and attacks against each other, a) they might think this place is no better than any other and leave, or   b.) get sucked into the conversation themselves and get carried away.

 

There is an 'opportunity cost' but that in and of itself is a 'time management issue' and at some point a 'cultivation test'. 

 

I've meet and been able to talk quite a bit with other members here in O-G that I don't think would of otherwise happened... I've gotten to know their views and opinions and how strong how life issues mean to them.   This doesn't sound so much like 'spirituality' but IMO, it has tell tale signs. 

 

 

13 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

I was not advocating it to be pitted.  Though I would really like for some things to change.  So, I was just making a personal appeal to anyone that cares to listen to me,  to pause and look at their activities, and see if it is truly conducive and helpful to others and to the forum as a whole.

 

If this place is mostly about political debates only as it is these days, then it would not make a lot of sense for me personally to be an ongoing part of it.  That is something I need to think and decide for myself, whether I want to be part of something that is mostly about political discussions and debates with a lot of trading insults back and forth.

 

I think the staff and moderators have the responsibility in providing larger directions to the entire forum, or to keep the spirit of the conversations in line with the reasons why this site exists.

 

Well, if you raise something in the staff area, we're forced to listen at least 

 

Re:  To keep the spirit of the conversation in line...

 

To a small degree... IMO, if a nudge helps, it may be worth doing.  If a thank you helps, it may be worth doing.  But less is best in most cases.  Folks bear responsibility for their posts.

 

3 minutes ago, s1va said:

 I have not suspended a single member as moderator so far.  I even issue warnings very rarely.  To be clear, I hate such actions personally like suspending members and agree to it reluctantly as a very last resort someone's.  Those that are in staff know my positions in these subjects.  I am generally the most conservative when it comes to taking actions against any member.

 

And that is why some diversity on staff is helpful 

[dawei]

3 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

Oh and OP By creating this thread you have now opened the door to the energy that is propelling the other. The Trump Phenomena is big, very big energy for this entire world at this time in history. To create a thread referencing it has brought you into it. Welcome.

 

It was already shared that this thread is a Split from another discussion... So the OP is actually me !   

 

So yes, I'm opening some doors but one has to decide whether they step through or not

 

[s1va]

4 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

Heated? There has been lots of discussion and people being honest and getting on each others nerves a bit but I would hardly define the discussions as heated. I will admit I have had too much fun amusing myself and Kar3n asked me to reign it in a modify a post but no one in that thread has really gone too far. 

 

Calling someone a 'ranting loon' may be fun for you.  But I don't it is fun for the other party.  Otherwise it wouldn't have come to our attention.

 

It is heated as far as I am concerned.  Also, you are talking as if you know my past and where I am right now.  We hardly know each other besides exchanging some messages.  It's true, I have leaned a lot about many things including people, but I don't think it's any of your business. I would respect and not make presumptions or complain about any of my past direct exchanges with anyone, either directly or behind that person.

[Pilgrim]

2 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

It was already shared that this thread is a Split from another discussion... So the OP is actually me !   

 

So yes, I'm opening some doors but one has to decide whether they step through or not

 

Hello Op. Laughing I thought it was wandelaar.  

 

Well ya can lead a horse to water pard.  need a cowboy hat emoji.

[Pilgrim]

1 minute ago, s1va said:

 

Calling someone a 'ranting loon' may be fun for you.  But I don't it is fun for the other party.  Otherwise it wouldn't have come to our attention.

 

It is heated as far as I am concerned.  Also, you are talking as if you know my past and where I am right now.  We hardly know each other besides exchanging some messages.  It's true, I have leaned a lot about many things including people, but I don't think it's any of your business. I would respect and not make presumptions or complain about any of my past direct exchanges with anyone, either directly or behind that person.

My, my, temper temper. 

[wandelaar]

Please please, stop everybody!

 

Or I will have to start still another topic complaining about the  large amount of posts in this thread! 

[s1va]

14 minutes ago, Kar3n said:

Take a breath and let folks speak on the topics they desire. It is all in time with the Dao, whether we like it or not.

 

Liked your entire post.  Very well worded.  Yes, everything happens in Dao.  But, I don't personally need to be part of everything that is happening in Dao.  I can choose to be part of what is conducive to me.   There are many places for political debates and arguments, I don't generally go there or participate.  I am here so far obviously, because I loved to be part of. If it changes for the most part from what it is or the reason why I got here, then I should revaluate to see if it still makes sense for me to continue.  Just to be part of something, only because I used to be part of it doesn't make sense to me.  It's not stated with any hard feelings.  Change is the nature and the only truth.  I move on if I have to, and the forum moves on also, all in Dao. 

[s1va]

11 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

My, my, temper temper. 

 

Are you angry about something or someone?

 

[Pilgrim]

1 minute ago, s1va said:

 

Are you angry about something or someone?

 

Laughing no but you are. It's ok I understand and will do my best not to upset you to the point you start acting like you just did. 

[s1va]

Just now, Pilgrim said:

Laughing no but you are. It's ok I understand and will do my best not to upset you to the point you start acting like you just did. 

 

First you called some one as 'ranting loon' in the Trump thread.  I guess then you edited that post as you mentioned yourself, after it got reported.  According to you it is fun and amusing!  When I point that out in response to your  challenge about heated exchange, you are saying I have temper! 

 

I also mentioned about the presumptive stuff from past, talking about my past and future as if you know me well and complaining about me to others here.  There is no response for that also.  If someone has integrity, I would expect them to speak to my face.

 

Now you are laughing and want to make sure I don't ask those questions again or point out how the heated exchange happened.  Fine, I won't point out, unless you choose to butt in with questions and challenge whatever I say, whether it's in welcome forum or O-G.

 

Best wishes 🙂

[Kar3n]

Speaking of heated exchanges...

 

It might be time to let this thread and some of its participants cool off a bit.

[Pilgrim]

1 minute ago, Kar3n said:

Speaking of heated exchanges...

 

It might be time to let this thread and some of its participants cool off a bit.

Agreed.

[Marblehead]

4 hours ago, s1va said:

 

Thanks for the concern about my personal spiritual progress.  Perhaps something I said is pushing some buttons and making some uncomfortable and turn this thread also into some personal, you vs. me, innuendos and attacks, etc. 

 

More important to me is the collective spiritual progress for the entire community here.

Maybe you two could get married so that you could argue and disagree with each other 24/7?

 

[Pilgrim]

2 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Maybe you two could get married so that you could argue and disagree with each other 24/7?

 

Instigator 

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, ilumairen said:

What I once did was bow to the political opinion of men.

What a mistake that was, huh?

 

 

[wandelaar]

Seemingly even a thread that is about a thread that is about Trump leads to trouble...