The Dao Trumps

[Kar3n]

19 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Done! Trump has left the building!

 

So if I understand correctly the new situation should than be that on visiting The Dao Bums one chooses:

 

Activity > My Activity Streams >  Unread Content

I have created a how to topic, here

 

The unread content tab on the header you are referring to will always contain all  unread content. You must customize the default stream that is linked to the right of the title of the thread. By default it is called unread content, but you can change it if you choose. I have explained it in the link above.

[Aetherous]

11 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

The social/political dimension is indeed a fairly low level of human existence.

 

To me, this kind of view seems very judgmental, besides being inaccurate. Someone who speaks freely would say "get off yer high horse"...I don't like to make commands like that, or actually accuse someone of being haughty...but only point out a potential problem area in spiritual cultivation for everyone's benefit. Having this kind of viewpoint seems self destructive to me.

It's my view that the real path embraces all aspects of life, and that no humans are on a "high level" of existence...we're all in the same boat. Thinking we're high level compared to others is a trap. Thinking others are higher level than us is another type of trap (and can lead to gurus abusing their disciples, etc...which is direct evidence of their flawed humanity).

Being informed and involved, caring enough to try to help others, are good things. We're born into a social world, and are stuck with others...it helps us learn and grow in our spirituality.

 

Quote

And I am (mildly) surprised too that a topic of that kind is so popular amongst the Bums - more than spirituality, cultivation etc.

 

Cultivation doesn't end when we get off the zafu. It extends into our dealings with others, in every moment, and definitely extends into the political arena.

This isn't to say politics is part of the topic of spiritual systems and methods. No, they should be considered separately. Just that (what I view as) good spiritual cultivation doesn't end in different moments, and isn't neglectful of any area of life. Spiritual methods have a set time...who we're becoming is a constant process.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Aetherous

[Michael Sternbach]

On 1.11.2018 at 7:22 PM, Aetherous said:

 

To me, this kind of view seems very judgmental, besides being inaccurate. Someone who speaks freely would say "get off yer high horse"...I don't like to make commands like that, or actually accuse someone of being haughty...but only point out a potential problem area in spiritual cultivation for everyone's benefit. Having this kind of viewpoint seems self destructive to me.

It's my view that the real path embraces all aspects of life, and that no humans are on a "high level" of existence...we're all in the same boat. Thinking we're high level compared to others is a trap. Thinking others are higher level than us is another type of trap (and can lead to gurus abusing their disciples, etc...which is direct evidence of their flawed humanity).

Being informed and involved, caring enough to try to help others, are good things. We're born into a social world, and are stuck with others...it helps us learn and grow in our spirituality.

 

 

Cultivation doesn't end when we get off the zafu. It extends into our dealings with others, in every moment, and definitely extends into the political arena.

This isn't to say politics is part of the topic of spiritual systems and methods. No, they should be considered separately. Just that (what I view as) good spiritual cultivation doesn't end in different moments, and isn't neglectful of any area of life. Spiritual methods have a set time...who we're becoming is a constant process.

 

Spiritual traditions agree that the average individual lives in a permanent state of delusion. And politics by and large are the sad collective expression of that delusion.

 

If more people would be following the advice of the sages and cultivating, many problems would simply cease to exist. Much like shadow in the light of the sun. Treat causes, not effects!

 

And that's why I generally emphasize the focus on a spiritual way of thinking and living over too much involvement in practical affairs.

 

However, I realize that different folks are dealing with different questions and tasks. And that's fine.

[thelerner]

5 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

If more people would be following the advice of the sages and cultivating, many problems would simply cease to exist. Much like shadow in the light of the sun. Treat causes, not effects!

 

You'd think so, yet historically, countries with many high level spiritual traditions, I'm thinking Tibet, Cambodia, India.. can wind up in some pretty bad places.. tyranny, extreme poverty..

 

[Marblehead]

24 minutes ago, thelerner said:

You'd think so, yet historically, countries with many high level spiritual traditions, I'm thinking Tibet, Cambodia, India.. can wind up in some pretty bad places.. tyranny, extreme poverty..

 

That is what I talk to when I talk about religious institutions.

 

[wandelaar]

We cannot do completely without politics. I am a member of a political party myself. But that doesn't mean that it's a good thing when most of the time and energy on a Taoist and Spiritual forum like The Dao Bums goes into political discussions. There is a time and place in life for both spirituality and politics, but on this forum politics shouldn't trump spirituality (pun intended).

[Michael Sternbach]

39 minutes ago, thelerner said:

You'd think so, yet historically, countries with many high level spiritual traditions, I'm thinking Tibet, Cambodia, India.. can wind up in some pretty bad places.. tyranny, extreme poverty..

 

 

I don't get that the 'average Joe' is spiritually more advanced there than in Western cultures.

[thelerner]

2 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

I don't get that the 'average Joe' is spiritually more advanced there than in Western cultures.

Maybe not the average Joe, but imo the top guys there are religious to the point of that indistinguishable from insanity.   Some.. out monking the monks.  Crossing lines between admirable and bizarre. 

[Michael Sternbach]

18 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

That is what I talk to when I talk about religious institutions.

 

 

Note that there is a significant difference between religious instititions and genuine living spirituality. True seekers may or may not use the frameworks provided by the former, but at any rate, they are the exception, not the rule.

[Michael Sternbach]

11 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Maybe not the average Joe, but imo the top guys there are religious to the point of that indistinguishable from insanity.   Some.. out monking the monks.  Crossing lines between admirable and bizarre. 

 

As there is a difference between being religious and being spiritual.

 

Extreme religiousness can be disastrous to oneself and others. Deep spirituality is a different matter.

Edited November 3, 2018 by Michael Sternbach

[Marblehead]

6 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Note that there is a significant difference between religious instititions and genuine living spirituality. True seekers may or may not use the frameworks provided by the former, but at any rate, they are the exception, not the rule.

Yes, I generally try to differentiate between an individual's religion and its spirituality aspects and the formal established institutions of various religions.

 

[thelerner]

there's also the sticky matter that at times, good intentions, lead to very poor results.  Not making hard pragmatic decisions, ends up creating disasters. 

 

Running a government is about allocating resources.  There's much need and limited money.  To be too open hearted is to run up debts and create future crises. 

Edited November 3, 2018 by thelerner

[Aetherous]

24 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

There is a time and place in life for both spirituality and politics, but on this forum...

 

...there's the OG board, where it's the time and place.

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, Aetherous said:

 

...there's the OG board, where it's the time and place.

Yeah, about 80% of my posts would be better off in the OG sub-forum.

 

[dawei]

21 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, about 80% of my posts would be better off in the OG sub-forum.

 

 

Maybe we should rename it in your honorable name  

[Marblehead]

Marble Park?

 

[Aetherous]

Just now, Marblehead said:

Marble Park?

 

Marblehead the OG.

[Marblehead]

3 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

 

Marblehead the OG.

That is actually a truth.  I get and stay off grid as much as I can.

 

 

 

[wandelaar]

42 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

...there's the OG board, where it's the time and place.

 

That's the place alright. But as to the time, that's a more complicated issue. It has been mentioned before that the time and energy that is here invested in political discussions can no longer be invested in spiritual topics. And that's why The Dao Bums is in danger of loosing its main Taoist or spiritual focus.

 

Edited November 3, 2018 by wandelaar

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

And that's why The Dao Bums is in danger of loosing its main Taoist or spiritual focus.

I have no fear of that ever happening.  Too many of our members will keep those discussions going regardless of what else is being talked about within the various sub-forums.

 

[dawei]

39 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

As there is a difference between being religious and being spiritual.

 

Extreme religiousness can be disastrous to oneself and others. Deep spirituality is a different matter.

 

37 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Yes, I generally try to differentiate between an individual's religion and its spirituality aspects and the formal established institutions of various religions.

 

 

When viewed through the lens of duality, there is separation among us in every possible form and way; it is a feast for the senses for sure.

 

But I can't help but be interested that the early daoist (if we can call then that) didn't look so strongly at separation, IMO.  The legalist, Hanfeizi, was named among three and the other two were known for their daoist positions.  Sima Qian said the Daoist [thought] incorporated the best of the rest.

 

The comments about the impoverished asian cultures is an interesting point but focusing on their standard of living is like focusing on politics.    I would say asians are generally more open in energy, accepting and non-distinguishing than western cultures.   I'm not saying whether they are better, higher, more spiritual, etc... just say. 

[wandelaar]

9 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I have no fear of that ever happening.  Too many of our members will keep those discussions going regardless of what else is being talked about within the various sub-forums.

 

I hope you are right.

[Aetherous]

13 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

And that's why The Dao Bums is in danger of loosing its main Taoist or spiritual focus.

 

If you're worried about losing spiritual focus, then focus on spirituality. Contribute within the many spiritual parts of the forum. OG is a place for other discussion.

This is like pretty much any forum in existence, where the forum exists for a certain purpose...let's say there's a gardening forum. Pretty much every subforum is about different aspects of gardening. And you'll also find a place there for off topic discussion (very common in most places like this). It might be the case that "off topic" becomes more active than the gardening posts...

...this doesn't change the fact that it's all a bunch of people interested in gardening, who discuss that. Some might even be expert gardeners, yet they primarily discuss with other gardening enthusiasts about other things.

OG subforum here doesn't draw new members in, so there's no chance of the forum becoming a political place rather than spiritual. Its discussions don't show up in google searches...but many of the other parts of the forum do, and draw people in.

Now the Staff has come up with ways for current members to not see OG posts in "Activity". Take advantage of that if OG bothers you.

Really...it's a good personal policy, and good spiritual cultivation, to focus on yourself (a rude way of saying it is - "mind your own business"). If you don't like the idea of discussing politics, and think there should be more participation in spiritual subjects on the forum...then do that. Go contribute to spiritual etc threads. I do it often. Make the world a better place.

[Aetherous]

I think I'll try to make that my last post of opposing those trying to stifle political discussion here. It's enough that we spend some of our time discussing politics...I'd rather not continue discussing the discussion of politics.

 

All relevant points in regard to spiritual cultivation in the midst of politics have really already been stated by me...no need to repeat myself either with that, or with my disagreement.

Moving on!

[Marblehead]

11 minutes ago, dawei said:

When viewed through the lens of duality, there is separation among us in every possible form and way; it is a feast for the senses for sure.

 

But I can't help but be interested that the early daoist (if we can call then that) didn't look so strongly at separation, IMO.  The legalist, Hanfeizi, was named among three and the other two were known for their daoist positions.  Sima Qian said the Daoist [thought] incorporated the best of the rest.

 

The comments about the impoverished asian cultures is an interesting point but focusing on their standard of living is like focusing on politics.    I would say asians are generally more open in energy, accepting and non-distinguishing than western cultures.   I'm not saying whether they are better, higher, more spiritual, etc... just say. 

Yeah, Lao Tzu mentioned Duality vs Singularity a couple times but really didn't speak to the concept all that much.  I can't recall Chuang Tzu saying much about it.

 

East/West - different?  Yes.  One better than the other?  I won't try to speak to that.  And I agree that it would be best to not include politics or even culture in a discussion of spirituality.